Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?

[TheDeuce]

GT9 said:

TheDeuce said:

I personally wouldn't be bothered if they just stuck with diesel for more remote operations - the impact is tiny. But I'm assuming legislation will at some point force a 'green' solution, and in that scenario batteries and where needed site based renewable generation for charging seem to be the simplest direction for future plant to head in.

You can see it coming.
Diesel generator + electrolyser + compressor + H2 engine.
NOx and CO2 footprint substantially worse than just using diesel.

Quite! And those 'solutions' will continue to be announced and proven in trials, via some wonky maths and zero-whatever BS.

But I think the solution that will actually come to general fruition for plant, will prove to be battery based. Just gotta hoover up all the grant money to prove hydrogen can work first, ahead of admitting it does not.

[DonkeyApple]

TheDeuce said:

I personally wouldn't be bothered if they just stuck with diesel for more remote operations - the impact is tiny. But I'm assuming legislation will at some point force a 'green' solution, and in that scenario batteries and where needed site based renewable generation for charging seem to be the simplest direction for future plant to head in.

Logic doesn't always have a place. . Diesel is all too often the smarter choice and one could probably find cases where it would even be lower carbon than the massive infrastructure work around to get green electricity to a remote location. However, the bigger driver is probably ESG capital. Of you want to open cast a slug of rain forest then you're going to need to raise capital to start doing so. That capital requires pretty pictures of rewilding, with local, illiterate children laughing as the skip along to the imaginary school building with imaginary solar panels on the roof, down a quaint little path through a bio diverse freshly planted forest where the trees are full of happy, pretty creatures. The plant equipment that you will use to rip the land apart with and then leave to rot once finished as its cheaper than transporting the shagged equipment to another job as its already been written off on the books and paid for by the investors must be green and clean so if JCB don't offer a prospectus friendly machine you have to ditch them for Caterpillar. Investors need to see caring, intelligent workers in biodegradable, clean clothing, skipping down pretty paths, mindful to not accidentally tread on an ant as they head towards their caring, eco friendly machine, which is lovely and clean and with pictures of flowers on it.

If you want to bank a load of fish from ripping up and destroying huge tracts of vital habitat and displacing and poisoning a few thousand locals then you need to tick all the right 'pretty and caring' boxes for the ESG investors.

The advantage plant has in urban environments is also that it usually can't legally be sweated 24/7 for maximum potential. Local laws tend to limit working hours which does give loads to time to recharge the machines and of course there's plenty of electricity with which to do that.

[otolith]

GT9 said:

You can see it coming.
Diesel generator + electrolyser + compressor + H2 engine.
NOx and CO2 footprint substantially worse than just using diesel.

I suspect that battery powered plant charged from a diesel generator might actually use less diesel than diesel powered plant.

This was amusing.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/16/tesla-model-s-charg...

[Evanivitch]

otolith said:

I suspect that battery powered plant charged from a diesel generator might actually use less diesel than diesel powered plant.

This was amusing.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/16/tesla-model-s-charg...

If you can keep your generator running at the ideal efficiency then there's value in that.

[TheDeuce]

Evanivitch said:

otolith said:

I suspect that battery powered plant charged from a diesel generator might actually use less diesel than diesel powered plant.

This was amusing.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/16/tesla-model-s-charg...

If you can keep your generator running at the ideal efficiency then there's value in that.

Also once the battery is charged, the plant using it will only need to extract power when it's moving. With the diesel engine onboard the plant, it has to run for a period to be up to temp and is very inefficient if you turn it off each time the machine pauses operations, which is pretty often for most plant.

[DonkeyApple]

Evanivitch said:

otolith said:

I suspect that battery powered plant charged from a diesel generator might actually use less diesel than diesel powered plant.

This was amusing.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/16/tesla-model-s-charg...

If you can keep your generator running at the ideal efficiency then there's value in that.

It's the centralised combustion argument. As per it being more efficient to burn fossil fuels at a single location and send electricity out to cars than it is for the cars to each have a less efficient combustion device. Plus, scrubbing is more efficient and in the latter example geolocation superior.

Sadly, the unpalatable reality is that combustion is always more efficient and cleaner when centralised for energy generation. Which is why they will eventually come for our gas boilers as well.

[DonkeyApple]

TheDeuce said:

Also once the battery is charged, the plant using it will only need to extract power when it's moving. With the diesel engine onboard the plant, it has to run for a period to be up to temp and is very inefficient if you turn it off each time the machine pauses operations, which is pretty often for most plant.

Easily bypassed and worked around by using a 67 year old pensioner from Wigan who knows for sure that their style of driving a diesel is more efficient than one of those libtard electrical contraptions.

[GT9]

otolith said:

I suspect that battery powered plant charged from a diesel generator might actually use less diesel than diesel powered plant.

This was amusing.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/16/tesla-model-s-charg...

Yeah but no but yeah but no, batteries weigh the same full or empty!

[GT9]

DonkeyApple said:

Easily bypassed and worked around by using a 67 year old pensioner from Wigan who knows for sure that their style of driving a diesel is more efficient than one of those libtard electrical contraptions.

[Touch nose] Little known secret mate, diesels have a sweet spot at 82 mph, 100 mpg at least, tell no-one. [Touch nose]

[dvs_dave]

Swappable battery pack heavy plant potentially has several major advantages over H2ICE. No local emissions and low noise (particularly relevant in urban environments), no need to store large quantities of leaky, explosive gas in an already hazard filled environment, much simpler, efficient and therefore reliable drivetrain and power systems. With swappable battery packs, equipment downtime for charging is a non-issue.

The local pollution and noise advantages are largely irrelevant for remote operations, but the hugely reduced carbon footprint is still relevant. And another area that’s been missed where battery electric plant has massive upsides is in enclosed environments, such as underground mining and tunneling operations, significantly reducing ventilation and heat management requirements. This is a big win as that can be very onerous and expensive to achieve; ventilation shafts, large scale power hungry air handling equipment etc.

Of course such equipment will require a heavy upfront capex commitment, but given the comparatively low ongoing operating costs, and other potential savings there’s likely a pretty solid business case in there. Certainly over an H2ICE solution, which aside from improved emissions, doesn’t really offer any game changing upsides over diesel power, whilst introduces a lot of other risks and complications.

[DonkeyApple]

Cheaper to run a cable and pay Dave to stand next to them?

[GT9]

DonkeyApple said:

Cheaper to run a cable and pay Dave to stand next to them?

A decent amount of power can be transmitted by microwave these days.

Just put a sign up saying 'Don't walk through the invisible beam'.

[dvs_dave]

DonkeyApple said:

Cheaper to run a cable and pay Dave to stand next to them?

Nah, my own greenhouse gas emissions would make that infeasible, unless some sort of high capacity atmospheric methane capture system was deployed as part of the solution.

[GT9]

dvs_dave said:

Nah, my own greenhouse gas emissions would make that infeasible, unless some sort of high capacity atmospheric methane capture system was deployed as part of the solution.

Turning brown methane into blue methane.
Interesting idea.

[DonkeyApple]

dvs_dave said:

DonkeyApple said:

Cheaper to run a cable and pay Dave to stand next to them?

Nah, my own greenhouse gas emissions would make that infeasible, unless some sort of high capacity atmospheric methane capture system was deployed as part of the solution.

Reform the methane to get blue hydrogen and claim the carbon credit This time next year Dave!

[TheDeuce]

dvs_dave said:

Swappable battery pack heavy plant potentially has several major advantages over H2ICE. No local emissions and low noise (particularly relevant in urban environments), no need to store large quantities of leaky, explosive gas in an already hazard filled environment, much simpler, efficient and therefore reliable drivetrain and power systems. With swappable battery packs, equipment downtime for charging is a non-issue.

The local pollution and noise advantages are largely irrelevant for remote operations, but the hugely reduced carbon footprint is still relevant. And another area that’s been missed where battery electric plant has massive upsides is in enclosed environments, such as underground mining and tunneling operations, significantly reducing ventilation and heat management requirements. This is a big win as that can be very onerous and expensive to achieve; ventilation shafts, large scale power hungry air handling equipment etc.

Of course such equipment will require a heavy upfront capex commitment, but given the comparatively low ongoing operating costs, and other potential savings there’s likely a pretty solid business case in there. Certainly over an H2ICE solution, which aside from improved emissions, doesn’t really offer any game changing upsides over diesel power, whilst introduces a lot of other risks and complications.

The case for indoor plant wasn't missed - I commented further up, in the film industry we use electric plant extensively in the sound stages. Quiet and doesn't choke everyone, perfect. As most plant is hired there's no capex other than for the hire company, and they're well advised to get electric models in because people really do want them. Not just in the film industry or indoors, but anywhere with a decent power supply because they're so much cheaper and easier to 'fuel' and nicer to operate.

If you get diesel models in, you have to also hire a large bunded fuel tank and pump, security, it's a right faff if you're only working on location for a day or so.

[dvs_dave]

TheDeuce said:

The case for indoor plant wasn't missed - I commented further up, in the film industry we use electric plant extensively in the sound stages. Quiet and doesn't choke everyone, perfect. As most plant is hired there's no capex other than for the hire company, and they're well advised to get electric models in because people really do want them. Not just in the film industry or indoors, but anywhere with a decent power supply because they're so much cheaper and easier to 'fuel' and nicer to operate.

If you get diesel models in, you have to also hire a large bunded fuel tank and pump, security, it's a right faff if you're only working on location for a day or so.

Rather more challenging environment and duty cycle compared to heavy plant working in a mine/underground construction site though.

[Evanivitch]

DonkeyApple said:

Sadly, the unpalatable reality is that combustion is always more efficient and cleaner when centralised for energy generation. Which is why they will eventually come for our gas boilers as well.

Not sure I follow the logic giving condensing boilers are about as efficient as combustion gets.

[dvs_dave]

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Sadly, the unpalatable reality is that combustion is always more efficient and cleaner when centralised for energy generation. Which is why they will eventually come for our gas boilers as well.

Not sure I follow the logic giving condensing boilers are about as efficient as combustion gets.

In isolation yes, although NOx emissions are still a problem. But when coupled with heat pumps to replace said gas boilers, there’s obviously no contest.

[Evanivitch]

dvs_dave said:

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Sadly, the unpalatable reality is that combustion is always more efficient and cleaner when centralised for energy generation. Which is why they will eventually come for our gas boilers as well.

Not sure I follow the logic giving condensing boilers are about as efficient as combustion gets.

In isolation yes, although NOx emissions are still a problem. But when coupled with heat pumps to replace said gas boilers, there’s obviously no contest.

Yeah I get that a CCGT providing power to HP is efficient. Perhaps that was the centralised combustion they perceived.