Making evs drive like ice cars
Discussion
Vantagemech.. said:
Evanivitch said:
There are several EV conversions of classic cars that keep a working gearbox in place. In nearly all cases you put it in 3rd gear and forget about it...
That's a bit disingenuous, any vehicle be it ice or EV can throw a major bill. Let's hold off and see how many are still daily drivers like my 19 yr old Audidoodi. trickywoo said:
The charge flap is quite commonly where a fuel flap would be so that’s fine. If you think an ev will be maintenance free you are in for a shock, perhaps literally.
Explain away all the EV maintenance that is required! Costs £30 tax and £36 diesel every 3 weeks. Fix it when it breaks at minimal cost. Probably not seen a dealer in the last half of it life. Unlike an EV that is pretty much dealer only - plus most are still under warranty. Oh, and I own the whole car, I don't rent bits.... On a side note, is it true the Pious is the most crashed hybrid? Taxi drivers or knackered batteries insurance fraud?
There are an every growing network of independent EV garages. Servicing and repairing everything from Tesla to Zoe. Even modern ICE are dealer dependent, especially if you want the brake or oil service light reset!
Prius spend most of their time in urban areas. Where do you think most accidents happen? Prius batteries are cheap and easy to refresh, NiCd cells are plentiful.
Depending on what type of electric motor you use it has different properties. But the ones with instant max torque from stand still loose very much power as it builds rpm. Which is the opposite of what I suppose OP is after. Remember its torque times RPM that provides actual hp. So if its a raising powercurve you want, I think you need to look at a different type of electric motor. I´m not at all interested in EVs though so dont really know whats out there. Just learned through work regarding asynchronous motors that are controlled by frequency that the low frequency/low rpm provides a low torque. And as you build up towards 50hz the motor starts to make peak torque. Dont really know anything about it though.
Edited by Moskvich on Saturday 27th February 11:13
Evanivitch said:
There are an every growing network of independent EV garages. Servicing and repairing everything from Tesla to Zoe. Even modern ICE are dealer dependent, especially if you want the brake or oil service light reset!
You have just highlighted the reason people don't think you can work on an EV, people don't understand them yet, just like you when you say you have to take an ICE car to a dealer to get the service light reset 
you can do that on your own drive.It's going to take time for independents to catch up, but they will.
Think you could have just about every car made with an EV....
Its all in the software, with sensors in place you could simulate just about every powertrain ever created.
Imagine a LCD in the instrument binnacle, select your desired car and the binnical turns into the instrument cluster that the car of choice had.
The software setting up the shocks and psendo gearbox. hydraulic cylinders etc to give you the feel of a clutch. Again that gear box could be made feel clunky or hot knife through butter.
The drive train being made feel like a turbo with the wallop in the back as it boosts... I think if they put their mind to it then they would be able to do a lot of on the road simulations. the gubins being made to feel like its a real IC engined car your driving.
Its all in the software, with sensors in place you could simulate just about every powertrain ever created.
Imagine a LCD in the instrument binnacle, select your desired car and the binnical turns into the instrument cluster that the car of choice had.
The software setting up the shocks and psendo gearbox. hydraulic cylinders etc to give you the feel of a clutch. Again that gear box could be made feel clunky or hot knife through butter.
The drive train being made feel like a turbo with the wallop in the back as it boosts... I think if they put their mind to it then they would be able to do a lot of on the road simulations. the gubins being made to feel like its a real IC engined car your driving.
Biggy Stardust said:
miken2k8 said:
Surely there must be a way to limit amount of Power going to an electric motor through software to mimic a rev range. In a sporty body with good pipes in sound this would make a good sports car. Why is no one doing this to win over petrol heads? Could even out in a manual.
Fake broom-broom noises through the speakers? A great idea for little children but less so for the adults.I think it childish, but BMW et al think it profitable.
Evanivitch said:
How's your 19yr old Audi in a crash? Crap. It's Emissions? Appalling.
There are an every growing network of independent EV garages. Servicing and repairing everything from Tesla to Zoe. Even modern ICE are dealer dependent, especially if you want the brake or oil service light reset!
Prius spend most of their time in urban areas. Where do you think most accidents happen? Prius batteries are cheap and easy to refresh, NiCd cells are plentiful.
4* occupants, 1* pedestrian. Better than some new cars.There are an every growing network of independent EV garages. Servicing and repairing everything from Tesla to Zoe. Even modern ICE are dealer dependent, especially if you want the brake or oil service light reset!
Prius spend most of their time in urban areas. Where do you think most accidents happen? Prius batteries are cheap and easy to refresh, NiCd cells are plentiful.
Whatever it's emissions (119? /£30 a year - terrible eh?) are it's still going to be on a par to the 2 EV's that will have more than likely been made obsolete by advancement or heaven forbid the manufacturer going to the wall/ no longer supporting the model (see Renault) and that's not even putting in the fact that at 19 years old it's not yet ready to be scrapped yet. So potentially 30 years from a 60+mpg diesel Vs what? Then we have advancements in fuels, but the elephant in the room is recharging. 3 cars and a bike in my household. Can't all be on charge at the same time. (I know you wouldn't need to, just being pedantic) but theres the issue. Not everyone can charge their car at home.
Sorry , I've taken this off the original post. I'm not saying I'd never have an EV, but the current stuff is well out of manys pocket, including mine. Plus I'm a mechanic and have zero interest is working on what equates to an elaborate battery powered white goods.
Vantagemech.. said:
Evanivitch said:
How's your 19yr old Audi in a crash? Crap. It's Emissions? Appalling.
There are an every growing network of independent EV garages. Servicing and repairing everything from Tesla to Zoe. Even modern ICE are dealer dependent, especially if you want the brake or oil service light reset!
Prius spend most of their time in urban areas. Where do you think most accidents happen? Prius batteries are cheap and easy to refresh, NiCd cells are plentiful.
4* occupants, 1* pedestrian. Better than some new cars.There are an every growing network of independent EV garages. Servicing and repairing everything from Tesla to Zoe. Even modern ICE are dealer dependent, especially if you want the brake or oil service light reset!
Prius spend most of their time in urban areas. Where do you think most accidents happen? Prius batteries are cheap and easy to refresh, NiCd cells are plentiful.
Whatever it's emissions (119? /£30 a year - terrible eh?) are it's still going to be on a par to the 2 EV's that will have more than likely been made obsolete by advancement or heaven forbid the manufacturer going to the wall/ no longer supporting the model (see Renault) and that's not even putting in the fact that at 19 years old it's not yet ready to be scrapped yet. So potentially 30 years from a 60+mpg diesel Vs what? Then we have advancements in fuels, but the elephant in the room is recharging. 3 cars and a bike in my household. Can't all be on charge at the same time. (I know you wouldn't need to, just being pedantic) but theres the issue. Not everyone can charge their car at home.
Sorry , I've taken this off the original post. I'm not saying I'd never have an EV, but the current stuff is well out of manys pocket, including mine. Plus I'm a mechanic and have zero interest is working on what equates to an elaborate battery powered white goods.
Smiljan said:
CG2020UK said:
EVs offer max power and torque at all times.
You sure? 
Evanivitch said:
Explain away all the EV maintenance that is required!
Explain what servicing is needed on a ICE in 4 years other than a single change of oil?ICE and EV both have suspension, cooling circuits, brakes, steering, air con, cabin filters, doors, lights, etc etc. ICE and EV brakes are sized for the job and arguably EV drivers get more issues with their brakes because of the lack of use. Brake fluid still needs checking. EVs tend to be heavier so suspension gets a harder time too, with lno engine performing heating they have large resistive heating elements that can fail or complex heat pumps. Lets face it some of the most common issues on Tesla MS and MX are drive shafts, suspension failures and the heating matrix popping, and the new heat pump in the Model 3 doesn't seem to like the cold..
It really worries me when I hear EV owners say with a sense of pride that they've done 100k miles and the car has never had a service.
But back to the original question - the driving experience of an EV is one of the most compelling features, the performance is from zero to 40 rather than 40-80 in an ICE, no gears (usually) - why would you want to butcher one of its main advantages?
TheRainMaker said:
Odd thing to say, cars have been getting more and more reliable and last longer than ever before, are you saying we are going to take a step backwards with BEV?
Why is it an odd thing to say? You're comparing 2 different technologies. One established and the other in its fledgling stage, so it would be naive to expect it to last 20 years on current battery technology. If you had the battery pack renewed/replaced who's to say it wouldn't last 20 years.
jjwilde said:
OK Grandad, maybe time to leave the EV section of the forum then before you need your heart pills.
So you are assuming that the 19yr old daily I have makes me a grandad? Ignoring the 325i, MK2 TT and 800cc sportsbike I have? All electric vehicles are sporty and for youngsters?
I suggest you look at the name of this site and give your head a wobble and wind your neck in a little....
Heres Johnny said:
Explain what servicing is needed on a ICE in 4 years other than a single change of oil?
If you want to use best/worse case examples. A timing belt, DMF, lots of Particulate Filter fluid, oil filter, fuel filter, sparkplug check and possible change.
WhatCar points to exhaust, engine electronics (I.e. Sensors) and gearbox issues on the least reliable BMW/Audi vehicles.
Heres Johnny said:
ICE and EV brakes are sized for the job and arguably EV drivers get more issues with their brakes because of the lack of use. Brake fluid still needs checking.
My Ampera, despite weighing 1600kg, has the same sized brakes as a Vauxhall Astra. You're right that rear brakes tend to fail through lack of use, and yet its not reported on any of the reliability surveys...
Heres Johnny said:
EVs tend to be heavier so suspension gets a harder time too, with lno engine performing heating they have large resistive heating elements that can fail or complex heat pumps.
You mean heat pumps which are effectively aircon units which we've all had for a decade? The resistive elements are no different to most premium diesel cars. Again, don't seem to be breaking the survey figures...
Heres Johnny said:
Lets face it some of the most common issues on Tesla MS and MX are drive shafts, suspension failures and the heating matrix popping, and the new heat pump in the Model 3 doesn't seem to like the cold..
Are we talking about EV or do you just have a chip about Tesla?
NateWM said:
Whilst we are at it, let's put a container in the front that requires topping up with oil every now and then....and maybe a fake fuel flap so that we can pretend to fill up with petrol and relive our youth.
Why stop there? How about having a man walk in front with a red flag, too?Vantagemech.. said:
4* occupants, 1* pedestrian. Better than some new cars.
Whatever it's emissions (119? /£30 a year - terrible eh?) are it's still going to be on a par to the 2 EV's that will have more than likely been made obsolete by advancement or heaven forbid the manufacturer going to the wall/ no longer supporting the model (see Renault) and that's not even putting in the fact that at 19 years old it's not yet ready to be scrapped yet. So potentially 30 years from a 60+mpg diesel Vs what? Then we have advancements in fuels, but the elephant in the room is recharging. 3 cars and a bike in my household. Can't all be on charge at the same time. (I know you wouldn't need to, just being pedantic) but theres the issue. Not everyone can charge their car at home.
Sorry , I've taken this off the original post. I'm not saying I'd never have an EV, but the current stuff is well out of manys pocket, including mine. Plus I'm a mechanic and have zero interest is working on what equates to an elaborate battery powered white goods.
some great fails in there ^^Whatever it's emissions (119? /£30 a year - terrible eh?) are it's still going to be on a par to the 2 EV's that will have more than likely been made obsolete by advancement or heaven forbid the manufacturer going to the wall/ no longer supporting the model (see Renault) and that's not even putting in the fact that at 19 years old it's not yet ready to be scrapped yet. So potentially 30 years from a 60+mpg diesel Vs what? Then we have advancements in fuels, but the elephant in the room is recharging. 3 cars and a bike in my household. Can't all be on charge at the same time. (I know you wouldn't need to, just being pedantic) but theres the issue. Not everyone can charge their car at home.
Sorry , I've taken this off the original post. I'm not saying I'd never have an EV, but the current stuff is well out of manys pocket, including mine. Plus I'm a mechanic and have zero interest is working on what equates to an elaborate battery powered white goods.
NCAP stars:
NCAP stars are not absolute, they are relative to the current best performer (otherwise a modern car would have to have 10 starts and not 5!) You 19yo audi, whilst not being particularly unsafe is also nowhere near as safe as a new car. It's 2002 4 stars would not even get it 1 star today. Go watch some you tube of crash test between old "tank like" volvos and 15 year newer modern supiminis and the difference is absolutely staggering. A crash you could walk away with literally without a single scratch in a new 5 star car would leave you with serious trauma and possibly dead in an 19 year old car.
The emissions:
As you car is a 19yo, EU3 diesel (it might just be an eu4) that makes it's emissions when new and in perfect conditons around 5 times worse than a current EU6 diesel for NOx and THC, and as much as 100 times worse for particulates (no DPF) Except it's not new is it. So give the fact the engine and fuel system is worn, it's tailpipe emissions will CATASTROPHIC in comparison. I ran a study for a major OE, who bought back ex lease models and tested them, at between 50,000 and 100,000 miles and 4 years old. The worst ones had real world emissions nearly 1,000 times worse than new (failed after treatment) and the best were still around 3 times worse due to effects such as injector wear.
60 mpg.
No. Yes , you can probably get 60mpg if you drove a single, long journey very carefully, but you won't be getting 60mpg as your year around average,or if you are, yo are driving so slowly as to be a hazard to other traffic and must not drive any short jouneys at all.
But hey, keep wearing those blinkers and shouting at the moon, you'll be fine..........
Yeah, you're right, I don't get 60 every mile. Around town it dips to 50, but never less. On a run, it's 66. But unlike EV's the cold doesn't make a massive be difference.
I dont drive like a grandad either
Some bloke did however and got 88 out of one. 4 up, LeJog. Whole trip on one tank. Only a handful of EV's that could do that without a charge.
This has derailed the thread again.
So I'm no fanboy of EV (or diesel - purely a mpg choice as I was traveling a 400 mile round trip to work each week)
But the whole thing of driving is sensory. I work in Motorsport and over the years I've seen cars disappear due to noise regs and then the appearance of petrol hybrids, diesel hybrids and with each evolution they become less interesting IMO. Along with quieter and quieter regs.
So with the OP, EV's are IMO missing parts of the fun of driving. Unless of course you are a grandad and sit at 30 in all limits having lost the passion for driving.. while I admit, some EV's are ballistic, they also come across as souless, short range slow geriatric wagons replacing the pink Jazz with a Nissan/Renault etc. It's only until you get into EV's that are the price of a house that are the exception.
I dont drive like a grandad either
Some bloke did however and got 88 out of one. 4 up, LeJog. Whole trip on one tank. Only a handful of EV's that could do that without a charge.
This has derailed the thread again.
So I'm no fanboy of EV (or diesel - purely a mpg choice as I was traveling a 400 mile round trip to work each week)
But the whole thing of driving is sensory. I work in Motorsport and over the years I've seen cars disappear due to noise regs and then the appearance of petrol hybrids, diesel hybrids and with each evolution they become less interesting IMO. Along with quieter and quieter regs.
So with the OP, EV's are IMO missing parts of the fun of driving. Unless of course you are a grandad and sit at 30 in all limits having lost the passion for driving.. while I admit, some EV's are ballistic, they also come across as souless, short range slow geriatric wagons replacing the pink Jazz with a Nissan/Renault etc. It's only until you get into EV's that are the price of a house that are the exception.
Edited by Vantagemech.. on Saturday 27th February 22:19
Vantagemech.. said:
Yeah, you're right, I don't get 60 every mile. Around town it dips to 50, but never less. On a run, it's 66. But unlike EV's the cold doesn't make a massive be difference.
I dont drive like a grandad either ??
Some bloke did however and got 88 out of one. 4 up, LeJog. Whole trip on one tank. Only a handful of EV's that could do that without a charge.
This has derailed the thread again.
So I'm no fanboy of EV (or diesel - purely a mpg choice as I was traveling a 400 mile round trip to work each week)
But the whole thing of driving is sensory. I work in Motorsport and over the years I've seen cars disappear due to noise regs and then the appearance of petrol hybrids, diesel hybrids and with each evolution they become less interesting IMO. Along with quieter and quieter regs.
So with the OP, EV's are IMO missing parts of the fun of driving. Unless of course you are a grandad and sit at 30 in all limits having lost the passion for driving.. while I admit, some EV's are ballistic, they also come across as souless, short range slow geriatric wagons replacing the pink Jazz with a Nissan/Renault etc. It's only until you get into EV's that are the price of a house that are the exception.
Out of interest have you actually driven any EV's?I dont drive like a grandad either ??
Some bloke did however and got 88 out of one. 4 up, LeJog. Whole trip on one tank. Only a handful of EV's that could do that without a charge.
This has derailed the thread again.
So I'm no fanboy of EV (or diesel - purely a mpg choice as I was traveling a 400 mile round trip to work each week)
But the whole thing of driving is sensory. I work in Motorsport and over the years I've seen cars disappear due to noise regs and then the appearance of petrol hybrids, diesel hybrids and with each evolution they become less interesting IMO. Along with quieter and quieter regs.
So with the OP, EV's are IMO missing parts of the fun of driving. Unless of course you are a grandad and sit at 30 in all limits having lost the passion for driving.. while I admit, some EV's are ballistic, they also come across as souless, short range slow geriatric wagons replacing the pink Jazz with a Nissan/Renault etc. It's only until you get into EV's that are the price of a house that are the exception.
HustleRussell said:
Why would you ‘engineer in’ shortcomings of an ICE powered car which make it objectively inferior to an EV?
The same reason people choose to buy a classic car. I don’t think anyone is suggesting we do it for mainstream EVs like Tesla, Ford etc.
The point is doing for weekend cars.
Plenty of people like pre-war cars. Other stuff from the 1980’s.
Given that we are on a mooring forum, I’d like to think that anyone would jump at the chance to drive a Ferrari Testarossa, Koenigsegg, McLaren F1 etc. Sadly, most aren’t going to get the opportunity, so having an EV that could, to varying degrees, emulate the experience would be a massive benefit in my opinion.
For those of us who have been lucky enough to drive a variety of cars, it’s not always the most perfect specimens that leave their mark - it’s the ones with the most character.
I try not to sound like a miserable git, but as cars get more and more accomplished, they get better and better at doing the commute, but they also get more and more dull.
I say that having driven a Tesla Model S, BMW i3 and 330e, but also the new M5 and a 7.5 Golf R.
Better isn’t actually more fun. Out of all of them I’d probably get the golf, although I suspect the 2wd GTI would be better still .
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