Making evs drive like ice cars
Discussion
SWoll said:
Out of interest have you actually driven any EV's?
Not a pure EV. Hybrids (Porsche 4*4 thingy) etc but I would like to have a go in one. I can't justify paying the huge amount for one that doesnt fit in with my life/work. I looked at hybrids before buying the Audi, (ex Honda tech so thought about one but they don't have electric only range and real world mpg was beaten by the diesel). Even a used Zoe (battery on lease) was twice what the Audi costs ( bearing in mind all servicing is done by me just cost of parts) not including the purchase price. I'm sure if I had one it would be fine, but trip I have to work is a mix of town and NSL a/b roads and a dull EV would be all I could probably afford. Does that answer the question SWoll? 😁
survivalist said:
HustleRussell said:
Why would you ‘engineer in’ shortcomings of an ICE powered car which make it objectively inferior to an EV?
The same reason people choose to buy a classic car. I don’t think anyone is suggesting we do it for mainstream EVs like Tesla, Ford etc.
The point is doing for weekend cars.
Plenty of people like pre-war cars. Other stuff from the 1980’s.
Given that we are on a mooring forum, I’d like to think that anyone would jump at the chance to drive a Ferrari Testarossa, Koenigsegg, McLaren F1 etc. Sadly, most aren’t going to get the opportunity, so having an EV that could, to varying degrees, emulate the experience would be a massive benefit in my opinion.
For those of us who have been lucky enough to drive a variety of cars, it’s not always the most perfect specimens that leave their mark - it’s the ones with the most character.
I try not to sound like a miserable git, but as cars get more and more accomplished, they get better and better at doing the commute, but they also get more and more dull.
I say that having driven a Tesla Model S, BMW i3 and 330e, but also the new M5 and a 7.5 Golf R.
Better isn’t actually more fun. Out of all of them I’d probably get the golf, although I suspect the 2wd GTI would be better still .
This thread seems to be a discussion on making a new EV which incorporates foibles which are present on an ICE car? I think that is distinct from driving a classic car.
I would equate what is suggested to this thread to CVT gearboxes with engineered ‘steps’ in the ratio to emulate the affect of a conventional automatic gearbox, which gives away much of the advantage of a constantly variable transmission.
See also: ‘engineered in’ pops and bangs on modern double clutch gearboxes, imitating the fartings of old noisy inefficient cars.
My objection is to the falseness of it.
If the discussion is retrofitting classics with Electric power then I object to that too. If the engine is removed, then the heart is gone as far as I’m concerned.
Old cars won’t cease to exist when EVs are the norm.
ruggedscotty said:
Think you could have just about every car made with an EV....
Its all in the software, with sensors in place you could simulate just about every powertrain ever created.
Imagine a LCD in the instrument binnacle, select your desired car and the binnical turns into the instrument cluster that the car of choice had.
If only they could make it lightweight and small.Its all in the software, with sensors in place you could simulate just about every powertrain ever created.
Imagine a LCD in the instrument binnacle, select your desired car and the binnical turns into the instrument cluster that the car of choice had.
HustleRussell said:
survivalist said:
HustleRussell said:
Why would you ‘engineer in’ shortcomings of an ICE powered car which make it objectively inferior to an EV?
The same reason people choose to buy a classic car. I don’t think anyone is suggesting we do it for mainstream EVs like Tesla, Ford etc.
The point is doing for weekend cars.
Plenty of people like pre-war cars. Other stuff from the 1980’s.
Given that we are on a mooring forum, I’d like to think that anyone would jump at the chance to drive a Ferrari Testarossa, Koenigsegg, McLaren F1 etc. Sadly, most aren’t going to get the opportunity, so having an EV that could, to varying degrees, emulate the experience would be a massive benefit in my opinion.
For those of us who have been lucky enough to drive a variety of cars, it’s not always the most perfect specimens that leave their mark - it’s the ones with the most character.
I try not to sound like a miserable git, but as cars get more and more accomplished, they get better and better at doing the commute, but they also get more and more dull.
I say that having driven a Tesla Model S, BMW i3 and 330e, but also the new M5 and a 7.5 Golf R.
Better isn’t actually more fun. Out of all of them I’d probably get the golf, although I suspect the 2wd GTI would be better still .
This thread seems to be a discussion on making a new EV which incorporates foibles which are present on an ICE car? I think that is distinct from driving a classic car.
I would equate what is suggested to this thread to CVT gearboxes with engineered ‘steps’ in the ratio to emulate the affect of a conventional automatic gearbox, which gives away much of the advantage of a constantly variable transmission.
See also: ‘engineered in’ pops and bangs on modern double clutch gearboxes, imitating the fartings of old noisy inefficient cars.
My objection is to the falseness of it.
If the discussion is retrofitting classics with Electric power then I object to that too. If the engine is removed, then the heart is gone as far as I’m concerned.
Old cars won’t cease to exist when EVs are the norm.
My point was that there is indeed a reason to ‘engineer in’ the shortcomings of an ICE power train.
I completely understand the argument in favour of BEVs, but it’s one based largely on cost. While I underhand the benefits, I have yet to drive an EV that I’d be excited to drive again.
Its a bit unfair to attack the op for his question.
Certainly, the 'hot hatch' EV hasn't yet appeared and the 'fun' factor will surely arrive at some point.
While a two speed gearbox or a dual motor solution is used by Porsche and Tesla to overcome the slight limitations of an electric motor, any more gears seem unnessessary
Unless
I also would like to retain 'gears' in an EV, just for fun's sake, and could only imagine a 'sports mode' where an electric motor is seriously overdriven requiring forced cooling which could be supplied by a shaft driven fan and as such would have to limit torque untill the revs were high enough to provide sufficient cooling.
You could then have an EV that sat in 2nd and 3rd, but in sport mode would need all 5 gears with a torque curve to match. I would be 'artificial' but might just have enough to make it justifiable. Would certainly make a car I would prefer to drive.
Can't see it happening though, the EV purists would have a fit !
Certainly, the 'hot hatch' EV hasn't yet appeared and the 'fun' factor will surely arrive at some point.
While a two speed gearbox or a dual motor solution is used by Porsche and Tesla to overcome the slight limitations of an electric motor, any more gears seem unnessessary
Unless
I also would like to retain 'gears' in an EV, just for fun's sake, and could only imagine a 'sports mode' where an electric motor is seriously overdriven requiring forced cooling which could be supplied by a shaft driven fan and as such would have to limit torque untill the revs were high enough to provide sufficient cooling.
You could then have an EV that sat in 2nd and 3rd, but in sport mode would need all 5 gears with a torque curve to match. I would be 'artificial' but might just have enough to make it justifiable. Would certainly make a car I would prefer to drive.
Can't see it happening though, the EV purists would have a fit !
Edited by Gary C on Saturday 27th February 23:57
Gary C said:
Unless
I also would like to retain 'gears' in an EV, just for fun's sake, and could only imagine a 'sports mode' where an electric motor is seriously overdriven requiring forced cooling which could be supplied by a shaft driven fan and as such would have to limit torque untill the revs were high enough to provide sufficient cooling.
You could then have an EV that sat in 2nd and 3rd, but in sport mode would need all 5 gears with a torque curve to match. I would be 'artificial' but might just have enough to make it justifiable. Would certainly make a car I would prefer to drive.
Can't see it happening though, the EV purists would have a fit !
And some prefer an ICE-car with more involvement than a modern ICE car. Say, a manual choke, man-sized clutch action, drum brakes all-round, etc ... OK, it'd be slower than a modern car, but so much more exciting. They stink up the countryside every Summer.I also would like to retain 'gears' in an EV, just for fun's sake, and could only imagine a 'sports mode' where an electric motor is seriously overdriven requiring forced cooling which could be supplied by a shaft driven fan and as such would have to limit torque untill the revs were high enough to provide sufficient cooling.
You could then have an EV that sat in 2nd and 3rd, but in sport mode would need all 5 gears with a torque curve to match. I would be 'artificial' but might just have enough to make it justifiable. Would certainly make a car I would prefer to drive.
Can't see it happening though, the EV purists would have a fit !
Edited by Gary C on Saturday 27th February 23:57
Gears are required to overcome ICE shortcomings. For anything else they are dead weight. When I see how badly many people drive a manual (inability to avoid neck snapping jerkiness), it's obvious that gears are a kludge.
All of us with fast manual ICE cards know that they are wasted in road driving, because even if you enjoy being able to rev match, heel-n-toe for perfect gear changes, you get to do it twice before you're breaking the speed limit. And even on a twisty B-road, you can't do it in traffic.
I suspect some people have spent so much of their lives putting up with the shortcomings of ICE that they almost demand to continue them to justify their time and investment.
Well they can, by buying a s
tty slow old car.
This whole manual gearbox, car should be difficult to drive thing seems a very British opinion, most of the rest of the world abandoned the manual, chokes, drum brakes (etc) in the 1970s and embraced modern technology.
Well they can, by buying a s
tty slow old car.This whole manual gearbox, car should be difficult to drive thing seems a very British opinion, most of the rest of the world abandoned the manual, chokes, drum brakes (etc) in the 1970s and embraced modern technology.
jjwilde said:
I suspect some people have spent so much of their lives putting up with the shortcomings of ICE that they almost demand to continue them to justify their time and investment.
Well they can, by buying a stty slow old car.
This whole manual gearbox, car should be difficult to drive thing seems a very British opinion, most of the rest of the world abandoned the manual, chokes, drum brakes (etc) in the 1970s and embraced modern technology.
Interesting the sheer vitriol that suggesting anything other than a single speed EV generates and the instant comparison with drum brakes and chokes.Well they can, by buying a s
tty slow old car.This whole manual gearbox, car should be difficult to drive thing seems a very British opinion, most of the rest of the world abandoned the manual, chokes, drum brakes (etc) in the 1970s and embraced modern technology.
Its almost as if they have a problem.
smallredball said:
All of us with fast manual ICE cards know that they are wasted in road driving, because even if you enjoy being able to rev match, heel-n-toe for perfect gear changes, you get to do it twice before you're breaking the speed limit. And even on a twisty B-road, you can't do it in traffic.
Thats a shame. Move up north, plenty of roads to drive for fun without having to break the speed limit and very little traffic.
but you have a point that a lot of cars are simply too fast to use anywhere near their potential.
A colleague at work (on a lower paypoint than me !, I must be doing something wrong or he is robbing banks) has just got a Taycan turbo S, and its just astonishingly fast. Its party piece is on straight roads where nothing I have been in could touch it, but you cannot seriously use a tenth of the power on anything twisty, the electronics won't let you.
It will be interesting how the major manufactures reinvent the hot hatch in the EV era, or will they even bother ? That market hasn't transitioned yet, but it can't be long.
Gary C said:
Interesting the sheer vitriol that suggesting anything other than a single speed EV generates...
I don’t see it as vitriol. Multi-gear transmissions are simply unnecessary complexity for the vast majority of EV street car use cases.
Does one make the Taycan faster than other EVs at extra-legal speeds? Yes.
Does it make it quicker than the single-gear Tesla Model S Performance at street speeds? Ironically no.
That’s not “case closed” for the discussion, but it does illuminate the reality of the situation.
jjwilde said:
This whole manual gearbox, car should be difficult to drive thing seems a very British opinion, most of the rest of the world abandoned the manual, chokes, drum brakes (etc) in the 1970s and embraced modern technology.
This is very true- in much of the rest of the world, people drive automatics as a default and manual gearboxes are found mostly in commercial vehicles. I am not just talking about the developed world here. It is hard to understand why normal British people (non-petrol heads) continue to tolerate clutches and gears that don’t change themselves. I can only assume that it is mostly a long persisting misconception that automatics will use more fuel and one day go wrong in an expensive way.Zcd1 said:
Gary C said:
Interesting the sheer vitriol that suggesting anything other than a single speed EV generates...
I don’t see it as vitriol. Multi-gear transmissions are simply unnecessary complexity for the vast majority of EV street car use cases.
Does one make the Taycan faster than other EVs at extra-legal speeds? Yes.
Does it make it quicker than the single-gear Tesla Model S Performance at street speeds? Ironically no.
That’s not “case closed” for the discussion, but it does illuminate the reality of the situation.
jjwilde said:
Well they can, by buying a stty slow old car.
That was a bit vitriolic dont you think ?tty slow old car.Interesting you mention the Tesla, that uses a dual motor setup to avoid needing a gearbox doesn't it ?, surely two motors weigh more than a motor plus a gearbox as a Taycan.
The EV market is a whole new world and it will be interesting to see how manufactures deal with the different markets.
That is until driving itself becomes a thing of the past, wonder which side of the fence people decrying a manual gearbox will be on then ?
Edited by Gary C on Sunday 28th February 14:37
Gary C said:
Interesting you mention the Tesla, that uses a dual motor setup to avoid needing a gearbox doesn't it ?, surely two motors weigh more than a motor plus a gearbox as a Taycan...
Every Taycan except the base version also has 2 motors.2 motors enables AWD, and has nothing to do with avoiding adding a transmission
Zcd1 said:
Gary C said:
Interesting you mention the Tesla, that uses a dual motor setup to avoid needing a gearbox doesn't it ?, surely two motors weigh more than a motor plus a gearbox as a Taycan...
Every Taycan except the base version also has 2 motors.2 motors enables AWD, and has nothing to do with avoiding adding a transmission
Zcd1 said:
Gary C said:
Interesting you mention the Tesla, that uses a dual motor setup to avoid needing a gearbox doesn't it ?, surely two motors weigh more than a motor plus a gearbox as a Taycan...
Every Taycan except the base version also has 2 motors.2 motors enables AWD, and has nothing to do with avoiding adding a transmission
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