Making evs drive like ice cars
Discussion
It will be interesting to see how Nissan do with the upcoming Qashqai e-power which is precisely the opposite proposition to the OP - a petrol car which has the driving characteristics of an electric one. I suspect that the vast majority of people will like the unparalleled smoothness and instant torque/power.
Zcd1 said:
Evanivitch said:
Yes, it does. Tesla use different ratios on front and rear motor.
Different motor types as well, so no that’s not the reason they don’t use transmissions. It is known that using a motor over the whole speed range is a compromise, and Tesla avoided the issue by using two motors, not the only reason maybe but Porsche went a different route and used a gearbox.
Certainly, its not a limitation that a car such as a Zoe will suffer from.
But we need Max_torque to weigh in here as a designer of said items.
Gary C said:
It is known that using a motor over the whole speed range is a compromise...
Absolutely, but it’s interesting that only Porsche has seen fit to add the complexity and weight of a multi speed transmission to address that compromise. The gearbox also adds a layer of uncertainty to the otherwise seamless nature of an EV’s throttle response.
The Taycan Turbo S has the same top speed as the Tesla Model 3 and Model S Performance, despite its transmission
My point remains that most EVs don’t need gearboxes for road use.
Zcd1 said:
Gary C said:
It is known that using a motor over the whole speed range is a compromise...
Absolutely, but it’s interesting that only Porsche has seen fit to add the complexity and weight of a multi speed transmission to address that compromise. The gearbox also adds a layer of uncertainty to the otherwise seamless nature of an EV’s throttle response.
The Taycan Turbo S has the same top speed as the Tesla Model 3 and Model S Performance, despite its transmission
My point remains that most EVs don’t need gearboxes for road use.
but it would be fun
for us dinosaurs.Evanivitch said:
Yes, it does. Tesla use different ratios on front and rear motor.
Not significant though, more to drop the mixture of PM or induction motors into sweeter efficiency spots to reduce battery consumption. Can’t remember the S / 3 mixture.As I understand Taycan only uses the shorter gear when set for launch mode anyway?
I think Tesla’s do have a history of having multi gearboxs anyway....
jjwilde said:
I suspect some people have spent so much of their lives putting up with the shortcomings of ICE that they almost demand to continue them to justify their time and investment.
Well they can, by buying a s
tty slow old car.
This whole manual gearbox, car should be difficult to drive thing seems a very British opinion, most of the rest of the world abandoned the manual, chokes, drum brakes (etc) in the 1970s and embraced modern technology.
So you enjoy driving white goods?Well they can, by buying a s
tty slow old car.This whole manual gearbox, car should be difficult to drive thing seems a very British opinion, most of the rest of the world abandoned the manual, chokes, drum brakes (etc) in the 1970s and embraced modern technology.
I guess you're so young you've never heard of heel and toe and think the CVT a masterpiece.
Perhaps you simply see a car as an alternative to publc transport, cars for those that hate driving.
Perhaps that would be a fitting line for some of the vehicles available today.
Zcd1 said:
Gary C said:
It is known that using a motor over the whole speed range is a compromise...
Absolutely, but it’s interesting that only Porsche has seen fit to add the complexity and weight of a multi speed transmission to address that compromise. The gearbox also adds a layer of uncertainty to the otherwise seamless nature of an EV’s throttle response.
The Taycan Turbo S has the same top speed as the Tesla Model 3 and Model S Performance, despite its transmission
My point remains that most EVs don’t need gearboxes for road use.
And maybe the 2 speed Porsche gearbox (only on 1 axle) is why owners seem to find it does way more range than the official ratings.
Tesla planned to use a 2 speed gearbox on the model S but gave up trying to get it to work.
But from a drivers perspective, 2 or even 3 speed gearboxes aren’t going to bring traditional driving pleasure on a manual change. For a start the whole rev matching thing would be very different. .
Zcd1 said:
Evanivitch said:
Yes, it does. Tesla use different ratios on front and rear motor.
Different motor types as well, so no that’s not the reason they don’t use transmissions. 
Yeah sure. They just used 2 different in-house motor designs and we're surprised they weren't the same gearing. Shocker. Vantagemech.. said:
So you enjoy driving white goods?
I guess you're so young you've never heard of heel and toe and think the CVT a masterpiece.
Perhaps you simply see a car as an alternative to publc transport, cars for those that hate driving.
Perhaps that would be a fitting line for some of the vehicles available today.
What you describe is the pleasure (one I do happen to share) of mastering a flawed machine. It has similarities with something like learning/playing a violin/piano or breaking and riding a wild mustang horse. I guess you're so young you've never heard of heel and toe and think the CVT a masterpiece.
Perhaps you simply see a car as an alternative to publc transport, cars for those that hate driving.
Perhaps that would be a fitting line for some of the vehicles available today.
Many(most?) drivers are fairly ham-fisted and very few wish to take the time, or derive any pleasure from, mastering the skill.
As it happens, I dislike the throttle response/hesitancy and flat spots of many modern ICEs. I understand the logic behind reducing emissions, though, and we will look back in horror/bemusement in future years to a time when we inefficiently burned hydrocarbons (petrol and particularly diesel) and exhausted them at street level as we drove slowly and idled in towns and past pedestrians.
Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 1st March 11:37
We should get used to electric cars. If they don't need gears they don't need gears.
The experience of using gears as brakes, dropping a gear to blast past someone or to make a bit of noise.
All that will be memories!
The soul of driving is not going to be the same.
People like Porsche and Lotus will find a way to bring some life into the cars and others will follow, so do not fear.
The experience of using gears as brakes, dropping a gear to blast past someone or to make a bit of noise.
All that will be memories!
The soul of driving is not going to be the same.
People like Porsche and Lotus will find a way to bring some life into the cars and others will follow, so do not fear.
Vantagemech.. said:
So you enjoy driving white goods?
I guess you're so young you've never heard of heel and toe and think the CVT a masterpiece.
Perhaps you simply see a car as an alternative to publc transport, cars for those that hate driving.
Perhaps that would be a fitting line for some of the vehicles available today.
From the bloke that brags about driving a 60mpg diesel...? (shrug)I guess you're so young you've never heard of heel and toe and think the CVT a masterpiece.
Perhaps you simply see a car as an alternative to publc transport, cars for those that hate driving.
Perhaps that would be a fitting line for some of the vehicles available today.
smallredball said:
Vantagemech.. said:
So you enjoy driving white goods?
I guess you're so young you've never heard of heel and toe and think the CVT a masterpiece.
Perhaps you simply see a car as an alternative to publc transport, cars for those that hate driving.
Perhaps that would be a fitting line for some of the vehicles available today.
From the bloke that brags about driving a 60mpg diesel...? (shrug)I guess you're so young you've never heard of heel and toe and think the CVT a masterpiece.
Perhaps you simply see a car as an alternative to publc transport, cars for those that hate driving.
Perhaps that would be a fitting line for some of the vehicles available today.
Vantagemech.. said:
So you enjoy driving white goods?
I guess you're so young you've never heard of heel and toe and think the CVT a masterpiece.
Perhaps you simply see a car as an alternative to publc transport, cars for those that hate driving.
Perhaps that would be a fitting line for some of the vehicles available today.
How many performance cars can you buy today with a clutch pedal? EV didn't kill the manual gearbox. I guess you're so young you've never heard of heel and toe and think the CVT a masterpiece.
Perhaps you simply see a car as an alternative to publc transport, cars for those that hate driving.
Perhaps that would be a fitting line for some of the vehicles available today.
Vantagemech.. said:
Make the accelerator pedal out of rubber, (or the same linkage as an old BMW gearshift) and one of these... Job done
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/7aJG4WrY[/url]
My i3S was making a clack-clack-clack sound yesterday and my wife asked if I had put a playing card on a wheel.[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/7aJG4WrY[/url]Turned out to be a ruddy great rivet in a tyre.
Edited by so called on Monday 1st March 12:01
On topic, I think I can see the fun side of having a gearbox, say two speed, on an electric car and doing donuts.
But my i3S feels mad enough and you can easily lose the rear end if you accelerate to hard out of a corner.
I've never understood the polarized attitude for ICE's / EV's / Diesel / Autobox.
I have a TVR Tuscan, an i3S and a Ford Edge S.
Some are more fun than others, some are more comfortable than others but they are all in their own way a pleasure to drive.
But my i3S feels mad enough and you can easily lose the rear end if you accelerate to hard out of a corner.
I've never understood the polarized attitude for ICE's / EV's / Diesel / Autobox.
I have a TVR Tuscan, an i3S and a Ford Edge S.
Some are more fun than others, some are more comfortable than others but they are all in their own way a pleasure to drive.
so called said:
On topic, I think I can see the fun side of having a gearbox, say two speed, on an electric car and doing donuts.
But my i3S feels mad enough and you can easily lose the rear end if you accelerate to hard out of a corner.
I've never understood the polarized attitude for ICE's / EV's / Diesel / Autobox.
I have a TVR Tuscan, an i3S and a Ford Edge S.
Some are more fun than others, some are more comfortable than others but they are all in their own way a pleasure to drive.
Oy, take your measured voice of reason and do one. This is Pistonheads, don’t you know.....the home of unreasoned argument and tantrums.But my i3S feels mad enough and you can easily lose the rear end if you accelerate to hard out of a corner.
I've never understood the polarized attitude for ICE's / EV's / Diesel / Autobox.
I have a TVR Tuscan, an i3S and a Ford Edge S.
Some are more fun than others, some are more comfortable than others but they are all in their own way a pleasure to drive.
Joking aside, I quite agree. At the moment, the fleet includes a V8 Jeep, a 4 cylinder aspirated Westfield we’ve had since I built it in ‘91, a V6 mid-engine home build that is due for an IVA re-test this week and an MB petrol hybrid. Apart from the two open top, 2 seat toys, quite different vehicles. I like driving the MB on battery more than on petrol, so know I’d be more than happy with a pure EV for those tasks where the MB gets used. Love the Jeep, big, basic, tonka-toy. Sadly, that’ll be going soon as we just don’t need it any more. Hard to justify a few trips to the tip in it when RFL is almost £600.
Chris-S said:
Oy, take your measured voice of reason and do one. This is Pistonheads, don’t you know.....the home of unreasoned argument and tantrums.
Joking aside, I quite agree. At the moment, the fleet includes a V8 Jeep, a 4 cylinder aspirated Westfield we’ve had since I built it in ‘91, a V6 mid-engine home build that is due for an IVA re-test this week and an MB petrol hybrid. Apart from the two open top, 2 seat toys, quite different vehicles. I like driving the MB on battery more than on petrol, so know I’d be more than happy with a pure EV for those tasks where the MB gets used. Love the Jeep, big, basic, tonka-toy. Sadly, that’ll be going soon as we just don’t need it any more. Hard to justify a few trips to the tip in it when RFL is almost £600.
Not dissimilar here: two V6 mid-engined cars for weekends (if/when!) a V8 'modern classic' luxobarge (SORNed for now) and the daily, which is a hybrid Lexus RX400h. It's the last of those that's for the chop when I switch to EV. The electric part of it feels half-hearted, compromised by its purpose - which is just to save tax. I'd prefer it was all-electric.Joking aside, I quite agree. At the moment, the fleet includes a V8 Jeep, a 4 cylinder aspirated Westfield we’ve had since I built it in ‘91, a V6 mid-engine home build that is due for an IVA re-test this week and an MB petrol hybrid. Apart from the two open top, 2 seat toys, quite different vehicles. I like driving the MB on battery more than on petrol, so know I’d be more than happy with a pure EV for those tasks where the MB gets used. Love the Jeep, big, basic, tonka-toy. Sadly, that’ll be going soon as we just don’t need it any more. Hard to justify a few trips to the tip in it when RFL is almost £600.
Caveat: I've never heel-n-toed in a 60mpg diesel, so my opinion's probably worth nothing.
I always think the problem with EVs is like with any technology there is period of resistance or unwillingness to let go of some of the old features that we enjoy.
I think we should be thinking of what we love most about ICE cars and how we can get EVs to replicate it.
For example would you rather have EVs replicating gear changes or manufactures focussing on reducing weight to improving handling?
Would you rather have faster charging similar to a stop at a petrol station or a battery that holds 1000miles so you never need to think about charging?
EVs are a disruptive technology and a lot of people are still thinking like Xtra-vision when Netflix is already here.
I think we should be thinking of what we love most about ICE cars and how we can get EVs to replicate it.
For example would you rather have EVs replicating gear changes or manufactures focussing on reducing weight to improving handling?
Would you rather have faster charging similar to a stop at a petrol station or a battery that holds 1000miles so you never need to think about charging?
EVs are a disruptive technology and a lot of people are still thinking like Xtra-vision when Netflix is already here.
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