Downcast about EVs
Discussion
craigjm said:
Are you over 40? If so then just make sure you have the ice cars you want in 2030ish and keep driving them. Fuel won’t be banned until 2050 by which time anyone born in the 70s or earlier will have hung up their driving gloves or shuffled off.
Exactly this. The problem is that if we dare question EVs then we are neanderthals. Most of us are intelligent enough to know that EVs are coming and will replace ICE for the general market. Kneejerk threads such as the 2030 deadline for ICE car sales don't help either. People on there seem to think that with the cessation of ICE sales = the cessation of oil based fuels. If that happened the country would grind to a halt overnight - food logistics, construction etc.
And transport via flying drones - a fair weather service yes. There's something called wind and inclement weather that no drone will overcome.
Let's be realistic and balanced.
As others have said, depends how you see a car. We are enthusiasts for a dying and damaging technology. Most are not.
I live in London, and I finally got a Nissan Leaf. And it is completely brilliant for its brief, which is trios around town, fuss free, and shorter out of town trips of 100 miles return maximum.
My CLS63 AMG was the last superestate that interested me, mainly for its grumbly 5.5V8TT engine, but it is no good in town compared to the little Nissan. The big Merc only really comes alive at big speeds and in the crowded south east, you may as well be driving an EV.
Obviously, not being dead yet, I came up with a third solution. A 2006 Maserati Gransport LE running a Larini exhaust. All the looks, noise and theatre that you could possibly want and great fun on early morning blasts out. Just returned from one.
Added benefit of annoying the busybody neighbour who congratulated me on the Leaf and looked forward to me getting rid of that "high polluting car" (AMG that did about 1000 miles a year max). Same guy is on the local WhatsApp going on about banning cars and cyclists rights, thinking everyone needs a new EV even though these Sileby cars are probably going to kill as many cyclists as Ice vehicles, and involve massive environmental damage
for their production as well as handing control of the planet to China if we keep needing the rare earth's to make them. Better than running my 20q3 AMG until it dies though, for air quality though, so all OK. You know the type.
Little did he know that the Leaf heralded the arrival of yet another V8 to the Flashman household. Hasn't spoken to me since, which I count as a bonus. Prick.
EVs are dull, but they are also great - for their brief. The Leaf is in its own way as addictive to drive around town as the Maser (seriously - the one pedal thing is novel and fun), and you make a game if range) and way more fun than the AMG in the urban setting. I actually love the Nissan. Expected to hate it
And you don't have to drive one yet.
I live in London, and I finally got a Nissan Leaf. And it is completely brilliant for its brief, which is trios around town, fuss free, and shorter out of town trips of 100 miles return maximum.
My CLS63 AMG was the last superestate that interested me, mainly for its grumbly 5.5V8TT engine, but it is no good in town compared to the little Nissan. The big Merc only really comes alive at big speeds and in the crowded south east, you may as well be driving an EV.
Obviously, not being dead yet, I came up with a third solution. A 2006 Maserati Gransport LE running a Larini exhaust. All the looks, noise and theatre that you could possibly want and great fun on early morning blasts out. Just returned from one.
Added benefit of annoying the busybody neighbour who congratulated me on the Leaf and looked forward to me getting rid of that "high polluting car" (AMG that did about 1000 miles a year max). Same guy is on the local WhatsApp going on about banning cars and cyclists rights, thinking everyone needs a new EV even though these Sileby cars are probably going to kill as many cyclists as Ice vehicles, and involve massive environmental damage
for their production as well as handing control of the planet to China if we keep needing the rare earth's to make them. Better than running my 20q3 AMG until it dies though, for air quality though, so all OK. You know the type.
Little did he know that the Leaf heralded the arrival of yet another V8 to the Flashman household. Hasn't spoken to me since, which I count as a bonus. Prick.
EVs are dull, but they are also great - for their brief. The Leaf is in its own way as addictive to drive around town as the Maser (seriously - the one pedal thing is novel and fun), and you make a game if range) and way more fun than the AMG in the urban setting. I actually love the Nissan. Expected to hate it
And you don't have to drive one yet.
jjwilde said:
Drones which fly people are a huge emerging industry right now, billions being invested. Could have the potential to change every day life in amazing ways.
Mass electric drones flying people are many many years away. 100 years maybe. The complexity involved is monumental.
Mass transport of passengers by electric aircraft so far into the future. The energy required can not be achieved from battery. A flight from London to NY burns 60 odd tonnes of fuel. Think of all that energy.
Short haul routes, London to Madrid still 8 tonnes plus the aircraft is on the ground for maybe 40 mins max 25 with Ryanair and back in the air. No charging system in the world can compete.
It does all seem a bit gloomy if you love a petrol powered car as it just seems that EVs are being designed to be quite bland to look at and come across as a bit soulless. I think the only one I've seen that I think looks quite cool is the Honda E but I've not seen another that does much for me but I suppose if one does there's hope!
Personally, unless I have a change in heart and want to PCP or lease a car, I'll be sticking with ICE for a while yet and most likely beyond 2030.
It's a sad thought to think generations won't get that freedom we all had, passing your test and being able to drive yourself anywhere as seems autonomous is the way it'll likely go. Shame though.
Personally, unless I have a change in heart and want to PCP or lease a car, I'll be sticking with ICE for a while yet and most likely beyond 2030.
It's a sad thought to think generations won't get that freedom we all had, passing your test and being able to drive yourself anywhere as seems autonomous is the way it'll likely go. Shame though.
snowandrocks said:
All I generally hear when I drive our Model 3 is the creaking, rattling and groaning of the shoddily built interior! Drives me insane!
I look forward to someone (Lexus?) eventually making a properly built refined EV. There is a lot of potential there.
My overwhelming impression of driving an S was the racket the suspension made. It sounded like an Alfa with chocolate suspension bushes....I look forward to someone (Lexus?) eventually making a properly built refined EV. There is a lot of potential there.
Depends how you pay for them. I took the view that an EV was a poor outright buy as the tech is changing so fast, so for the first time ever I leased a car.
My 2020 Nissan Leaf costs me 203 a month amortised. No road tax, tiny fuel costs as I charge at home. It charges on a socket, haven't bothered with a charger as my house electric are good and plugging in overnight keeps it topped up. I am getting a charger, but if yiu have an outdoor socket, it really isn't necessary unless you use the car constantly.
Insurance is 400 a year, in London. Any newish car costs this.
Treated as a utility bill for transport, this is not expensive.
My 2020 Nissan Leaf costs me 203 a month amortised. No road tax, tiny fuel costs as I charge at home. It charges on a socket, haven't bothered with a charger as my house electric are good and plugging in overnight keeps it topped up. I am getting a charger, but if yiu have an outdoor socket, it really isn't necessary unless you use the car constantly.
Insurance is 400 a year, in London. Any newish car costs this.
Treated as a utility bill for transport, this is not expensive.
Super_G said:
craigjm said:
Are you over 40? If so then just make sure you have the ice cars you want in 2030ish and keep driving them. Fuel won’t be banned until 2050 by which time anyone born in the 70s or earlier will have hung up their driving gloves or shuffled off.
Sound advice. I just wasn't will I g to pay 100k+ for an FF and bought the Maser. When I no longer need to ferry kids, and prices have softened as they are so pricey to run in terms of tax etc, I'll have a Superfast for myself.
It will cost a fortune to run and people will hate me, but I won't care.
By then, I also hope I won't be living in town, but near some good roads. If I still live in London, I'll have an Ariel Nomad.
tommy1973s said:
.
I'm excited about battery powered self flying personal planes alright. The excitement of being airborne, despite having no flying skills, would compensate.
I wouldn't be. Firstly, it's another of those dreams like autonomy that is much further away than the fund raisers and salary takers will ever say. We're in the biggest investment bubble of all time as hundreds of billions of freshly printed money is being thrown about and no one involved in directing or collecting that money is remotely incentivised to speak with clarity, honesty or legitimacy. And none of the ears want to hear that either. We are in amazing times just like back in the 80s and some big changes are going to come about as a result but just like the last economic tech events the bulknof what is being espoused by the money recipients is total tripe. I'm excited about battery powered self flying personal planes alright. The excitement of being airborne, despite having no flying skills, would compensate.
And secondly, our illusion of drones that will just hop us between the trees, through valleys and over dales is fundamentally flawed because all the people sucking the life out of transport will leap into drones and suck the life out of them. Firstly the IT blokes will stick a massive touchscreen on them and you'll have to spend hours programming it before it will take off, then the lawyers will define height, speed, direction and all routes and while the marketing bellends will be penning delusions and paying scrotes to post fabricated views what sat in our minds for over 40 years as the most amazing thing to be delivered from the future will turn out to be just another branded turd of mediocrity pedalled by a genuinely terrible human being and swamped with religious acolytes who will accept nothing but the devout worship of yet another consumer product that is poisoning the planet but has some green paint and the letters 'eco' on it.
As for EVs, at the moment the obsession is with nerdfesting them. Jamming them full of facile rubbish because that's what gives a boner to the kids who spent the 80s indoors, let alone the 90s or 00s.
The electric motor holds enormous potential for personal transport. We are in the early phase, the majority of consumers favour as big a car as their monthly allowance will permit. Big equals winning. These people need all that tech in order to feel good about themselves. They need all the eco rubbish to help them feel superior and manufacturers must cater for these apex consumers first. There is no sense in building a niche product in the early days, you've got to build a massive SUV, fill it with TV screens and flog it to the biggest polluters in society who can't stop shopping and have to have the latest object.
But as the market evolves then the more niche areas become viable. The electric motor along with modern technology opens the way for more directions than ever before. Not just in shape but in tailoring to needs.
Maybe the market for EVs that don't have TVs in them and don't have all that techno tripe become viable. A product that hides its tech and uses it to enhance the user experience both in terms of safety and comfort but without being seen.
Let's not forget that while all the mainstream stereo manufacturers were, in the 80s, filling the shelves with ghastly black plastic boxes with a million buttons and LEDs crammed all over them along with stickers screaming about some pointless or fabricated tech, other stereo manufacturers used modern tech to build some of the best stereos ever and the whole market went off in lots of interesting directions.
The EV with its rolling chassis design opens up a return to coachbuilding, customisation and being able to cater for many more niche markets.
The future might not be V8's all around us and let's not kid ourselves but it never has been and the reality has always been as many crappy cars as humanly possible powered by the crappiest of engines and just being used for the crappiest of purposes. Most cars in Britain are turgid temples to blandness, powered by bland turd, driven by bland turd, going to bland turd destinations. It really doesn't matter if they're all builtnin the same bland platform, with the same bland electric motor and all being used by the same bland people doing bland things in bland places but it's that blandness which will permit a return and reaurgence of coach building that is something to be excited about.
Personally, I'd like an EV that had all the modern crash safety and usability but no sign of anynof the tech. For me the brilliance of twchnis that it works to add to your quality of life without you ever knowing it's there. At the moment modern tech is akin to living in a country pile full of staff but that staff follows you around as a gang, making as much noise as possible, being as intrusive as possible because the owner of pike needs to be reminded of his fresh success and needs his guests to see it at all times. But in time this will settle and people will revert to having the staff use the back stairs and passages and never be seen while still making life better and easier.
Cold said:
Andeh1 said:
Is like going to from s*x to a blow job... Very very different... But absolutely not in a bad way!!
Not everybody likes giving blow jobs. We’re ipace owners and heavily in the industry but also have 2000hp in petrol cars, do both while you can, ev has great merrits
trickywoo said:
Prepare to be disappointed. The noise you hear now is road / tyre related which may actually get worse with heavier EVs.
If LGVs go electric it may help a bit but I’ve heard minimal talk of that.
Have an A road outside and not fussed about tyre noise, but fart-can exhausts and remaps that sound like machine guns can fIf LGVs go electric it may help a bit but I’ve heard minimal talk of that.
k right off, so I guess that will reduce in time (unless they become a trim level too...) Obviously that will take long enough to meaningfully happen that I'll be in a home by then and/or deaf anyway 
DonkeyApple said:
tommy1973s said:
.
I'm excited about battery powered self flying personal planes alright. The excitement of being airborne, despite having no flying skills, would compensate.
I wouldn't be. Firstly, it's another of those dreams like autonomy that is much further away than the fund raisers and salary takers will ever say. We're in the biggest investment bubble of all time as hundreds of billions of freshly printed money is being thrown about and no one involved in directing or collecting that money is remotely incentivised to speak with clarity, honesty or legitimacy. And none of the ears want to hear that either. We are in amazing times just like back in the 80s and some big changes are going to come about as a result but just like the last economic tech events the bulknof what is being espoused by the money recipients is total tripe. I'm excited about battery powered self flying personal planes alright. The excitement of being airborne, despite having no flying skills, would compensate.
And secondly, our illusion of drones that will just hop us between the trees, through valleys and over dales is fundamentally flawed because all the people sucking the life out of transport will leap into drones and suck the life out of them. Firstly the IT blokes will stick a massive touchscreen on them and you'll have to spend hours programming it before it will take off, then the lawyers will define height, speed, direction and all routes and while the marketing bellends will be penning delusions and paying scrotes to post fabricated views what sat in our minds for over 40 years as the most amazing thing to be delivered from the future will turn out to be just another branded turd of mediocrity pedalled by a genuinely terrible human being and swamped with religious acolytes who will accept nothing but the devout worship of yet another consumer product that is poisoning the planet but has some green paint and the letters 'eco' on it.
As for EVs, at the moment the obsession is with nerdfesting them. Jamming them full of facile rubbish because that's what gives a boner to the kids who spent the 80s indoors, let alone the 90s or 00s.
The electric motor holds enormous potential for personal transport. We are in the early phase, the majority of consumers favour as big a car as their monthly allowance will permit. Big equals winning. These people need all that tech in order to feel good about themselves. They need all the eco rubbish to help them feel superior and manufacturers must cater for these apex consumers first. There is no sense in building a niche product in the early days, you've got to build a massive SUV, fill it with TV screens and flog it to the biggest polluters in society who can't stop shopping and have to have the latest object.
But as the market evolves then the more niche areas become viable. The electric motor along with modern technology opens the way for more directions than ever before. Not just in shape but in tailoring to needs.
Maybe the market for EVs that don't have TVs in them and don't have all that techno tripe become viable. A product that hides its tech and uses it to enhance the user experience both in terms of safety and comfort but without being seen.
Let's not forget that while all the mainstream stereo manufacturers were, in the 80s, filling the shelves with ghastly black plastic boxes with a million buttons and LEDs crammed all over them along with stickers screaming about some pointless or fabricated tech, other stereo manufacturers used modern tech to build some of the best stereos ever and the whole market went off in lots of interesting directions.
The EV with its rolling chassis design opens up a return to coachbuilding, customisation and being able to cater for many more niche markets.
The future might not be V8's all around us and let's not kid ourselves but it never has been and the reality has always been as many crappy cars as humanly possible powered by the crappiest of engines and just being used for the crappiest of purposes. Most cars in Britain are turgid temples to blandness, powered by bland turd, driven by bland turd, going to bland turd destinations. It really doesn't matter if they're all builtnin the same bland platform, with the same bland electric motor and all being used by the same bland people doing bland things in bland places but it's that blandness which will permit a return and reaurgence of coach building that is something to be excited about.
Personally, I'd like an EV that had all the modern crash safety and usability but no sign of anynof the tech. For me the brilliance of twchnis that it works to add to your quality of life without you ever knowing it's there. At the moment modern tech is akin to living in a country pile full of staff but that staff follows you around as a gang, making as much noise as possible, being as intrusive as possible because the owner of pike needs to be reminded of his fresh success and needs his guests to see it at all times. But in time this will settle and people will revert to having the staff use the back stairs and passages and never be seen while still making life better and easier.
As somebody posted earlier, it's the price premium over a similar IC car that's stopping me now.
I've only bought 2 new cars since a change of career meant giving up the company car. The two new cars were both small and quite cheap to buy. Everything else has been at least 2 years old, bought for not much more than half the original retail price.
I'm looking to replace a Skoda Superb 280 with something reasonably big, and not too slow. It just doesn't get much use. There are quite a few EVs on the market now that would be suitable for me. The range and performance issues are pretty much sorted now. The cost of buying new is just too high, around £10k more than the equivalent petrol or diesel version, and most of the older models just don't appeal.
I guess things might be different in 2 or 3 years, when more EVs are available to buy secondhand. How will prices hold up on the secondhand market? My feeling is demand will outstrip supply for quite a few years, so anything electric and remotely interesting won't depreciate as much as a similar IC car.
I just don't get the massive premium. It's like you have to pay for the batteries and other electrical gubbins, as well as the engine and gearbox that you don't get. I get that a battery pack costs £6 or £7k, and the motor/electronics add another grand or two. There's the £10k premium. The manufacturer must have saved around half that by not building the IC drivetrain though, and that cost saving isn't reflected in the retail price.
Even at a £5k premium, it would be 50,000 miles before the reduced running costs of an EV made financial sense. That's 10 years for me.
I've only bought 2 new cars since a change of career meant giving up the company car. The two new cars were both small and quite cheap to buy. Everything else has been at least 2 years old, bought for not much more than half the original retail price.
I'm looking to replace a Skoda Superb 280 with something reasonably big, and not too slow. It just doesn't get much use. There are quite a few EVs on the market now that would be suitable for me. The range and performance issues are pretty much sorted now. The cost of buying new is just too high, around £10k more than the equivalent petrol or diesel version, and most of the older models just don't appeal.
I guess things might be different in 2 or 3 years, when more EVs are available to buy secondhand. How will prices hold up on the secondhand market? My feeling is demand will outstrip supply for quite a few years, so anything electric and remotely interesting won't depreciate as much as a similar IC car.
I just don't get the massive premium. It's like you have to pay for the batteries and other electrical gubbins, as well as the engine and gearbox that you don't get. I get that a battery pack costs £6 or £7k, and the motor/electronics add another grand or two. There's the £10k premium. The manufacturer must have saved around half that by not building the IC drivetrain though, and that cost saving isn't reflected in the retail price.
Even at a £5k premium, it would be 50,000 miles before the reduced running costs of an EV made financial sense. That's 10 years for me.
tommy1973s said:
Just soulless transport pods.
Driving fun should be about driving, not about how much energy is wasted as acoustic emissions.It's funny you bring up aviation as it is heavily regulated in terms of noise pollution. Yet people still enjoy flying. In fact the purest form.of flight, gliding, is silent!
Edited by FA57REN on Sunday 28th February 11:36
I can't understand the doom and gloom about EV's, they're still such a minor number of new cars sold. It's still a decade before they're the only "new" cars available (if that even happens), and then you'll have several more decades having your pick of ICE used cars.
The people who can make an EV work for them will invest in them, and enjoy them as they're convenient and easy to live with, and the technology will keep getting better for them - why do you care what they drive? At the same time people who live in more remote areas or simply don't want an EV aren't going to be "forced" into one if they don't want one. Do you really think every one of the army of diesel hatchbacks and crossovers shlepping their way to school, work, school again, shops, then home are loving the driving dynamics and tuneful nature of their chugging fourpots?
People who still enjoy driving can have their pick of interesting cars for years to come yet, people who don't care about driving and just need personal transport now have the choice of something else. What's there to get mithered about?
The people who can make an EV work for them will invest in them, and enjoy them as they're convenient and easy to live with, and the technology will keep getting better for them - why do you care what they drive? At the same time people who live in more remote areas or simply don't want an EV aren't going to be "forced" into one if they don't want one. Do you really think every one of the army of diesel hatchbacks and crossovers shlepping their way to school, work, school again, shops, then home are loving the driving dynamics and tuneful nature of their chugging fourpots?
People who still enjoy driving can have their pick of interesting cars for years to come yet, people who don't care about driving and just need personal transport now have the choice of something else. What's there to get mithered about?
Harry Flashman said:
Depends how you pay for them. I took the view that an EV was a poor outright buy as the tech is changing so fast, so for the first time ever I leased a car.
My 2020 Nissan Leaf costs me 203 a month amortised. No road tax, tiny fuel costs as I charge at home. It charges on a socket, haven't bothered with a charger as my house electric are good and plugging in overnight keeps it topped up. I am getting a charger, but if yiu have an outdoor socket, it really isn't necessary unless you use the car constantly.
Insurance is 400 a year, in London. Any newish car costs this.
Treated as a utility bill for transport, this is not expensive.
I’ve been saying this for about 4 years on here. The problem is you’re stating a coherent rationale argument backed up with facts. My 2020 Nissan Leaf costs me 203 a month amortised. No road tax, tiny fuel costs as I charge at home. It charges on a socket, haven't bothered with a charger as my house electric are good and plugging in overnight keeps it topped up. I am getting a charger, but if yiu have an outdoor socket, it really isn't necessary unless you use the car constantly.
Insurance is 400 a year, in London. Any newish car costs this.
Treated as a utility bill for transport, this is not expensive.
I’d say most of the motoring public care not one but how their car is powered. It’s about purchase or lease cost. Then the monthly of running it.
People are still slow to work out pros of EV and reduced costs V ICE.
There are a lot of thick people out there too. I was once upgrading flats with sole electric storage heating, to gas ch. for free. Fit in a day. I couldn’t convince some people that their bills will be cheaper “ because how can they I’ll have two meters and two bills. I only have one meter now “
I worry how some people get through life.
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