'Everyone I know who bought an electric car has gone back…’
Discussion
Dashnine said:
Another iPace? I think the point is after experiencing one iPace, ‘most’ are not replacing it with another and are reverting to ICE.
Over here the i pace is barely two years old.Why would you "return" a car that is as good as new, with the same car.
The whole thing of a Jag sales saying that most people returning an ipace buy an ICE seems so obvious I feel silly needing to explain it here.
It's the same as a Mazda dealership saying "MX5 owners that switch to another car here don't buy a convertible".
The statement is useless without numbers. How MANY of the I Pace owners have brought it back to replace it with an ICE?
emperorburger said:
My general observation is that EV's seem to be driven very sedately. I assume published range doesn't get anywhere close to reality if driven like an ICE. Range anxiety must be very stressful.
Most modern cars are driven sedately most of the time. Have you driven anything over 200 hp "enthusiastically" on the public road for an extended period of time?After two years of ownership, buying the right EV with the ability to charge at home, range anxiety is not a thing.
You leave every morning with a full car... for over a month now my wife and I make it a sport to "steal" the EV while the ICE is running on fumes and neither of us wants to fill it up
langtounlad said:
One of my friends purchased a new Model 3 about 9mths ago. Prior to that he had a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV but had become a Tesla convert and every conversation was dominated by how Tesla was the best thing since sliced bread. I bumped into him last week, having not seen him for some time due to Covid. He is back in a Mitsubishi PHEV and was hugely disillusioned by the Tesla. His words, 'piece of crap', atrocious build quality, 'cheap materials', rubbish fit & finish', 'rubbish ride quality', 'too much hassle when undertaking longer journey's'. And too expensive when compared to the overall cost of running the Mitsubishi, where he can still do his daily commute on battery power.
I was surprised and disappointed by his comments. Due to his enthusiasm and information about Tesla, I had started to seriously consider one when the time came to replace my 440i. Now I'm not so sure. He did say that the 0-60 of 4.5sec became boring quickly. I'm not so sure about that from personal experience :-)
All of his issues apart from a bit of rarer range anxiety aren’t a electric cars fault it’s typical American car build quality. There’s plenty of other well finished and well built Evs now. I was surprised and disappointed by his comments. Due to his enthusiasm and information about Tesla, I had started to seriously consider one when the time came to replace my 440i. Now I'm not so sure. He did say that the 0-60 of 4.5sec became boring quickly. I'm not so sure about that from personal experience :-)
emperorburger said:
My general observation is that EV's seem to be driven very sedately. I assume published range doesn't get anywhere close to reality if driven like an ICE. Range anxiety must be very stressful.
I drive mine like a loon and easily get 200 miles on an 80% charge. The same with my Morgan 4.8 V8 - around 200 miles from a full tank when driven quickly.I have no range anxiety in either car.
ZesPak said:
Over here the i pace is barely two years old.
Why would you "return" a car that is as good as new, with the same car.
:
In the UK we had a slew of lease offers on the iPace S at launch. 2 year, 5k mile per year deals that are now coming to and end so lots of returns. The used market getting flooded with low spec cars.Why would you "return" a car that is as good as new, with the same car.
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TheRainMaker said:
For a start, 40% of people can't charge at home, with the charging network we have a the moment in the UK that alone is a massive problem.
I'm lucky, I can charge at home, but if I couldn't the nearest fast charger is 3 miles away and there are only two. The closest Superchargers are 18 miles away.
The aspiration of central and local government is not for people to have electric cars, but for them not to have cars. The biggest development in London is Old Oak Common, it's the junction of HS2 and Crossrail. Something like 250,000 new homes are being built. IIRC the plan is one parking space per 10 homes. At Finchley Central Station they are planning two tower blocks. To do this they will be removing more than half the parking at the station and providing next to none for the flats.I'm lucky, I can charge at home, but if I couldn't the nearest fast charger is 3 miles away and there are only two. The closest Superchargers are 18 miles away.
The agenda doesn't see the lack of people's ability to charge at home as a problem because they won't have cars to charge.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
We bought an i3S a couple of weeks ago. Honeymoon period it may be, but we'll never go back to ICE for our runabout car now.
In fact, if/when someone makes a twin-cab pick up for Europe that's EV I'll get out of my Amarok for one too.
Happy to keep an ICE for high-days and trackdays but for me, the ICE is a relic of the past confined to enjoyment. I know it my circumstances won't apply to everyone else but the amount of people for whom a car is just transport who can't make do with an EV must be very small.
Same opinion here. I've had my Ioniq for a couple of weeks and can't imagine not having an EV now. I did have the perfect storm of a 60 mile round trip commute, a very thirsty car and space to charge offroad which combined with some dirt-cheap lease deals to make it a no-brainer. I like the way it drives and I like the money it saves me even more. I don't think that I'd ever want a petrol or diesel runaround again.In fact, if/when someone makes a twin-cab pick up for Europe that's EV I'll get out of my Amarok for one too.
Happy to keep an ICE for high-days and trackdays but for me, the ICE is a relic of the past confined to enjoyment. I know it my circumstances won't apply to everyone else but the amount of people for whom a car is just transport who can't make do with an EV must be very small.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
What is the 40% made up of, the U.K. population or a sub set who own cars?
I believe it was car drivers, it was the figure a very close friend who runs the largest EV fleet in the UK told me.The other thing I would say, the internal survey they have done with their own employees who have taken an EV as a company car has been very positive.
Goes against the article doesn't it
Without a doubt EV's are ideal especially if you can charge at home without relying on the public charging infrastructure. If you do have to rely on the public charging infrastructure (excluding Tesla) then its an inconvenience over ICE.
I would say 3/4 of people I know (inc myself) whom have had either EV's or plug in Hybrid have got back to Diesel or Petrol. Because:
1) Inconvenience, or lack of confidence in public charging
2) Expense, as a company car driver there are BIK benefits. But many companies (like ours) then pay the 4p per mile gov advisory rate. This becomes expensive when being charged at over 40p per kwh at public chargers.
3) Lack of choice. With the exception of the iPace, Taycan and maybe Model S, most EV's are dull.
Its good to see the likes of Shell and other Oil firms investing in chargers in petrol stations. But these are 7kW / 22kW the odd 50kW. However while these are practical, there is an element of virtue signalling to protect their brand and 'stay relevant'. They cannot install a 50kW - 250kW supercharger in ever station. Similarly charger companies cannot install superchargers on every street corner because the electrical infrastructure.
So the article makes a good point about who pays for the infrastructure. The big cost isn't the Chargers, or National Grid (Grid is fine), its the Grid to charger infrastructure. The infrastructure isn't there. It can be, but someone has to pay, and if its the government or energy provider then just like HS2, we will all be paying.
I would say 3/4 of people I know (inc myself) whom have had either EV's or plug in Hybrid have got back to Diesel or Petrol. Because:
1) Inconvenience, or lack of confidence in public charging
2) Expense, as a company car driver there are BIK benefits. But many companies (like ours) then pay the 4p per mile gov advisory rate. This becomes expensive when being charged at over 40p per kwh at public chargers.
3) Lack of choice. With the exception of the iPace, Taycan and maybe Model S, most EV's are dull.
Its good to see the likes of Shell and other Oil firms investing in chargers in petrol stations. But these are 7kW / 22kW the odd 50kW. However while these are practical, there is an element of virtue signalling to protect their brand and 'stay relevant'. They cannot install a 50kW - 250kW supercharger in ever station. Similarly charger companies cannot install superchargers on every street corner because the electrical infrastructure.
So the article makes a good point about who pays for the infrastructure. The big cost isn't the Chargers, or National Grid (Grid is fine), its the Grid to charger infrastructure. The infrastructure isn't there. It can be, but someone has to pay, and if its the government or energy provider then just like HS2, we will all be paying.
MOBB said:
I’ve just gone from a Model 3P to a used VW Up GTI
Nothing to do with EV vs ICE, I just wanted a very small sporty car and whilst the Honda e came close, there just isn’t a small sporty ev on the market that I fancied
I’ll be back in an ev as soon as there is one, and the wife is staying with ev
Spooky! Last year i went from an Up GTI to a Model 3 P!Nothing to do with EV vs ICE, I just wanted a very small sporty car and whilst the Honda e came close, there just isn’t a small sporty ev on the market that I fancied
I’ll be back in an ev as soon as there is one, and the wife is staying with ev
I was doing 15k a year in my Up (commuting) and man maths along with sal sac option on Tesla made net costs similar.
I do miss the Up... though i did sell to my brother-in-law...so will get to see it again soon.
The only neighbour I know who bought a BEV has gone back to petrol. Got brought home by the AA far too many times. I’d say she was thick, but she’s no thicker than 50% of the UK population. To be fair, it was an early Zoe with a range of about 100 miles, her problem was that she believed it at the start of a journey when it said 100 miles....
I suspect that without humungous government subsidy, there is going to be an immense problem with charging, particularly rapid charging. At the moment, every driver there is contributes to the upkeep of the fuel station network. As more people get BEVs, a very large proportion of those will opt out of the network for 99% of their driving, because they will charge at home. They will still need it for 1% of their driving (going on holiday etc), but most of the time, they won’t.
Roadside charging will be the preserve of the people who can’t charge at home (poor people in the main) and those exceptional cases where someone does need to drive long distance. Unfortunately a lot of those “long distance” demands will coincide - Bank Holidays, summer holidays, Christmas. So we’re going to have really spiky, occasional demand.
From a government POV, I don’t know how they’re going to square it. Today, there is an energy distribution system that they can tax the s
t out of, and it still works. In the future, they’re going to have to subsidise it, or it will be a staggeringly expensive distress purchase.
I suspect that without humungous government subsidy, there is going to be an immense problem with charging, particularly rapid charging. At the moment, every driver there is contributes to the upkeep of the fuel station network. As more people get BEVs, a very large proportion of those will opt out of the network for 99% of their driving, because they will charge at home. They will still need it for 1% of their driving (going on holiday etc), but most of the time, they won’t.
Roadside charging will be the preserve of the people who can’t charge at home (poor people in the main) and those exceptional cases where someone does need to drive long distance. Unfortunately a lot of those “long distance” demands will coincide - Bank Holidays, summer holidays, Christmas. So we’re going to have really spiky, occasional demand.
From a government POV, I don’t know how they’re going to square it. Today, there is an energy distribution system that they can tax the s
t out of, and it still works. In the future, they’re going to have to subsidise it, or it will be a staggeringly expensive distress purchase. It’s all about your personal circumstances.
We’re lucky enough to live in a house with a driveway that fits both mine and Mrs D’s car.
We both have BEV’s (Model 3 P and Kia eNiro). In the last 15 months Mrs D has done 20k miles and in last 13 i’ve done 11k (when we both switched).
We have one charge point on the drive, and i have one at work too. Mrs. D has only had to charge on public charges a handful of times (Instavolt and Ionity) and had no problems at all. Of course Tesla has Superchargers which are unbelievably easy to use and reliable.
But, not everyone has these conditions. I used to live in London with no driveway. Some folks regularly do long journeys and thus easier for ICE.
It will change, it’s just gonna take more time. Just need to convince SWMBO that i *need* a manual, petrol sports car for fun.
We’re lucky enough to live in a house with a driveway that fits both mine and Mrs D’s car.
We both have BEV’s (Model 3 P and Kia eNiro). In the last 15 months Mrs D has done 20k miles and in last 13 i’ve done 11k (when we both switched).
We have one charge point on the drive, and i have one at work too. Mrs. D has only had to charge on public charges a handful of times (Instavolt and Ionity) and had no problems at all. Of course Tesla has Superchargers which are unbelievably easy to use and reliable.
But, not everyone has these conditions. I used to live in London with no driveway. Some folks regularly do long journeys and thus easier for ICE.
It will change, it’s just gonna take more time. Just need to convince SWMBO that i *need* a manual, petrol sports car for fun.
TheRainMaker said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
What is the 40% made up of, the U.K. population or a sub set who own cars?
I believe it was car drivers, it was the figure a very close friend who runs the largest EV fleet in the UK told me.The other thing I would say, the internal survey they have done with their own employees who have taken an EV as a company car has been very positive.
Goes against the article doesn't it
Not every off street space will be able to have a charging point installed, but I'd think the vast majority could, without too large an investment.
RizzoTheRat said:
TheRainMaker said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I know it my circumstances won't apply to everyone else but the amount of people for whom a car is just transport who can't make do with an EV must be very small.
For a start, 40% of people can't charge at home, with the charging network we have a the moment in the UK that alone is a massive problem.I'm lucky, I can charge at home, but if I couldn't the nearest fast charger is 3 miles away and there are only two. The closest Superchargers are 18 miles away.
And that's not forgotting the 10's of billions of £££'s being thrown at it still hasn't solved it.
simonrockman said:
The aspiration of central and local government is not for people to have electric cars, but for them not to have cars.
Nail head 
Unfortunately many on us don't live in the 'public transport utopia' of London or other major cities.
Being about 10 miles from a major city you may as well be on the moon when it comes to affordable,reliable public transport.
rscott said:
TheRainMaker said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
What is the 40% made up of, the U.K. population or a sub set who own cars?
I believe it was car drivers, it was the figure a very close friend who runs the largest EV fleet in the UK told me.The other thing I would say, the internal survey they have done with their own employees who have taken an EV as a company car has been very positive.
Goes against the article doesn't it
Not every off street space will be able to have a charging point installed, but I'd think the vast majority could, without too large an investment.
Here is a recent interview he did, about EV rollout, infrastructure and the challenges involved.
https://youtu.be/lArqloHQ6vc?t=359
Edited by TheRainMaker on Monday 31st May 13:28
speedyguy said:
Being about 10 miles from a major city you may as well be on the moon when it comes to affordable,reliable public transport.
Absolutely this ^^^ WRT to public transport and why I don't like it.... it's not because I'd "have to travel with the proles", being as I'm not a powerfully built CD I'm a prole myself, it's that (in common with most people) private transport means I can go at a time of my choosing, have a temperature that's comfortable for me and be able to comfortably transport whatever it is that I need to transport.
ZesPak said:
Dashnine said:
Another iPace? I think the point is after experiencing one iPace, ‘most’ are not replacing it with another and are reverting to ICE.
Over here the i pace is barely two years old.Why would you "return" a car that is as good as new, with the same car.
Anyway, I’m not the one making the point - I’m the one clarifying it for you.
Edited by Dashnine on Monday 31st May 20:17
DodgyGeezer said:
speedyguy said:
Being about 10 miles from a major city you may as well be on the moon when it comes to affordable,reliable public transport.
Absolutely this ^^^ WRT to public transport and why I don't like it.... it's not because I'd "have to travel with the proles", being as I'm not a powerfully built CD I'm a prole myself, it's that (in common with most people) private transport means I can go at a time of my choosing, have a temperature that's comfortable for me and be able to comfortably transport whatever it is that I need to transport.
But there are plenty of EVs around here and even several Amazon EV Merc Sprinter vans (based 18 miles away in Ipswich) covering several rural areas.
rscott said:
DodgyGeezer said:
speedyguy said:
Being about 10 miles from a major city you may as well be on the moon when it comes to affordable,reliable public transport.
Absolutely this ^^^ WRT to public transport and why I don't like it.... it's not because I'd "have to travel with the proles", being as I'm not a powerfully built CD I'm a prole myself, it's that (in common with most people) private transport means I can go at a time of my choosing, have a temperature that's comfortable for me and be able to comfortably transport whatever it is that I need to transport.
But there are plenty of EVs around here and even several Amazon EV Merc Sprinter vans (based 18 miles away in Ipswich) covering several rural areas.
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