compatibility...
Discussion
so thinking about this the other day - if were going to get this sorted and up and running.... we need to take charging seriously...
Cars these days - Unleaded diesel or LPG thats like three choices - just about every garage you go to has at least two of those on pump. there is no confusion of pump nozels fitting, a petrol will fit a petrol and a diesel will fit a diesel. its kinda hard to get it mixed up but you can if careless still put petrol into a diesel. They even refuel at roughly the same speed, no slow granny pumps... 50 litres per minute thats what how many miles is that....
The fueling is pretty simple. even all the different companies providing fuel has a great interchangability with the many different IC engined cars that are availiable,.
that is where we need to be with cars. where we need to find oursleves with charging.
How can that be achieved ?
look at how we have embraced the USB it is pretty universal everywhere and we can charge so many items of quipment from that, its a definite standard and one that is used by thousands every day. so what about EV charging, what about the elephant in the room.
Charging needs to be inboard. It needs to be within the car architecture, thats no biggie, its no really its not. it might be a cost that needs to be factored into a car but it needs to be. We need to have an electrical standard, a provision of 800v 1600v or even 3200v supplies. with an availability of power capacity to what the car can take. you plug in the car and off it goes it consumes with it wants. Not the charger, not there at the side of the road but inboard. Thats the way forward. every electric car can be plugged into any and every charger point and take charge of the provided power. Our infrastructure cant exist with every single manufacturer demanding a certain type of supply... it wont work.
Cars these days - Unleaded diesel or LPG thats like three choices - just about every garage you go to has at least two of those on pump. there is no confusion of pump nozels fitting, a petrol will fit a petrol and a diesel will fit a diesel. its kinda hard to get it mixed up but you can if careless still put petrol into a diesel. They even refuel at roughly the same speed, no slow granny pumps... 50 litres per minute thats what how many miles is that....
The fueling is pretty simple. even all the different companies providing fuel has a great interchangability with the many different IC engined cars that are availiable,.
that is where we need to be with cars. where we need to find oursleves with charging.
How can that be achieved ?
look at how we have embraced the USB it is pretty universal everywhere and we can charge so many items of quipment from that, its a definite standard and one that is used by thousands every day. so what about EV charging, what about the elephant in the room.
Charging needs to be inboard. It needs to be within the car architecture, thats no biggie, its no really its not. it might be a cost that needs to be factored into a car but it needs to be. We need to have an electrical standard, a provision of 800v 1600v or even 3200v supplies. with an availability of power capacity to what the car can take. you plug in the car and off it goes it consumes with it wants. Not the charger, not there at the side of the road but inboard. Thats the way forward. every electric car can be plugged into any and every charger point and take charge of the provided power. Our infrastructure cant exist with every single manufacturer demanding a certain type of supply... it wont work.
JonnyVTEC said:
Not sure what you are highlighting here but feels like you don’t quite understand the product as much as you think?
Cars already have chargers for AC. DC pretty much goes straight into the battery.
highlighting that there shouldnt be the number of charger types and that it should pretty much be any charger ay vehicle. uniform connectivity. interchangeability. Cars already have chargers for AC. DC pretty much goes straight into the battery.
Edited by JonnyVTEC on Monday 31st May 18:17
ruggedscotty said:
highlighting that there shouldnt be the number of charger types and that it should pretty much be any charger ay vehicle. uniform connectivity. interchangeability.
As some one has already pointed out it is already pretty universal and uniform. CCS is the rapid charging connector standard and Type 2 for everything else, all new EVs follow these standards.The only other rapid charging connector is found only really on the Nissan Leaf which will be CCS only soon.
CCS is that. Except for a few oddities it’s what every new EV in Europe uses. Everything from a VW up! to a Taycan using the same physical connector (half of which is also used for slower home charging) but with the capabilities determined by the car.
Triple standard rapid chargers are commonplace because there’s a lot of older cars to use them, and the sites with one or two rapids it makes sense to support them all. Expect to see the big expansions at places like motorway services to be CCS only (in line with the cars using it), with a few Chademo and AC around to keep compatibility for those that need it.
Triple standard rapid chargers are commonplace because there’s a lot of older cars to use them, and the sites with one or two rapids it makes sense to support them all. Expect to see the big expansions at places like motorway services to be CCS only (in line with the cars using it), with a few Chademo and AC around to keep compatibility for those that need it.
Within Europe certainly, but internationally charging is still a bit of a mess with north America using a mixture of CCS type-1 and Tesla's proprietry connector, Japan using CHAdeMO, and China using GB/T. All of those networks look to be firmly enough established that changing them will make international standardisation pretty difficult.
There's currently zero reason for Tesla to open up their charging network to the rest of the world, fanboys aside the biggest attraction is the fact that they have invested heavily in the charging infrastructure and until the rest of the charging network catches up it boosts their sales for people who wish to minimise range anxiety.
As for the rest of the charging market... It is pretty streamlined. it's not as if every manufacturer has a unique charging connection. I'm not sure if you're a few years behind but the problem you're highlighting is already somewhat solved, it's now just the number of chargers around the country and the reliability of them that need some work.
As for the rest of the charging market... It is pretty streamlined. it's not as if every manufacturer has a unique charging connection. I'm not sure if you're a few years behind but the problem you're highlighting is already somewhat solved, it's now just the number of chargers around the country and the reliability of them that need some work.
ruggedscotty said:
look at how we have embraced the USB it is pretty universal everywhere and we can charge so many items of quipment from that, its a definite standard and one that is used by thousands every day. so what about EV charging, what about the elephant in the room.
So if we ignore the fact that USB has multiple bus/data rate standards over time (USB1.0, USB2.0, USB3.0) and has had multiple connector types:
Then yes, EV charging indeed has a long way to go to catch up.............
Listing USB type-A and USB 3 separately is pushing it a bit given they're entirely backwards compatible. That's like listing CCS type-2 50kw and CCS type-2 100kw as separate standards.
That diagram does however leave out all the garbage proprietry charger sockets and data cables Apple have come up with over the years.
That diagram does however leave out all the garbage proprietry charger sockets and data cables Apple have come up with over the years.
ruggedscotty said:
...
look at how we have embraced the USB it is pretty universal everywhere and we can charge so many items of quipment from that, its a definite standard and one that is used by thousands every day. so what about EV charging, what about the elephant in the room.
Charging needs to be inboard. It needs to be within the car architecture, thats no biggie, its no really its not. it might be a cost that needs to be factored into a car but it needs to be. We need to have an electrical standard, a provision of 800v 1600v or even 3200v supplies. with an availability of power capacity to what the car can take. you plug in the car and off it goes it consumes with it wants. Not the charger, not there at the side of the road but inboard. Thats the way forward. every electric car can be plugged into any and every charger point and take charge of the provided power. Our infrastructure cant exist with every single manufacturer demanding a certain type of supply... it wont work.
Not quite sure why many have ripped in to the OP here - slightly clumsily worded, but he is basically right.look at how we have embraced the USB it is pretty universal everywhere and we can charge so many items of quipment from that, its a definite standard and one that is used by thousands every day. so what about EV charging, what about the elephant in the room.
Charging needs to be inboard. It needs to be within the car architecture, thats no biggie, its no really its not. it might be a cost that needs to be factored into a car but it needs to be. We need to have an electrical standard, a provision of 800v 1600v or even 3200v supplies. with an availability of power capacity to what the car can take. you plug in the car and off it goes it consumes with it wants. Not the charger, not there at the side of the road but inboard. Thats the way forward. every electric car can be plugged into any and every charger point and take charge of the provided power. Our infrastructure cant exist with every single manufacturer demanding a certain type of supply... it wont work.
Firstly, the CHARGER is built-in to the vehicle. It needs to be so, so that it can control the charging to its own design/configuartion of cells. The charger manages the current and voltage profile being fed to the cells whilst monitoring temperature. The charger is chemistry specific.
The thing on people's walls that they call a charger - isn't. Its proper term is EVSE. Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment.
The issue here is simple the EVSE is able to communicate with the vehicle and 'decide on' or negotiate available current.
Straight forwards power sockets don't have this feature other than by their physical properties. e.g. a domestic BS1363 socket is able to supply (as you might expect) 13A, a 16A CEE socket funnily enough, 16A and a 32A CEE socket 32A - all given by their physical size/shape. A charging cable can have this built in, as it 'knows' the source it is connected to (e.g. Ohme with a 13A BS plus will charge at a different rate than an Ohme cable with a 32A plug.
Without this, the vehicle would attempt to pull more than the supply allows - hopefully just blowing the fuse, or opening the breaker.
Pee has been extracted about USB - however, this is exactly how USB works. There is a small base guaranteed level of power - more than that is supplied once the bus has negotiated with its peripheral and 'told' it what is available. (I take the point about physically different connectors though).
Slightly more to EVSE in that it must also make the power delivery safe for outside use. However, that is more on the technical side to do with earthing and fault detection.
Downside of the present situation is that sockets that can deliver significant power are all from the industrial world where asthetics were not that important. Colour coded plastic plugs avoid confusion in industry, but large red or blue connectors on the front of your house don't look great.
DC charging only looks to make sense for commercial installations. It means that the EVSE has to contain a rectifier, at significant currents this would need to be cooled which then means fans etc and adding complexity to the EVSE. At home you can only pull a certain amount of power from the grid. It is all delivered as AC, so I am not seeing any gain by going to DC at the EVSE. Main fuses are around 100A so that limits to 24kW single phase.
On the point of 800V or 3.2kV supplies, I might disagree. Electricity behaves differently at higher voltages - you wouldn't want consumers disconnecting cables carrying 3.2kV possibly under load. Some pluses in that the currents are lower, and the losses less, but outweight by the increased risk of dying badly.
kambites said:
Listing USB type-A and USB 3 separately is pushing it a bit given they're entirely backwards compatible. That's like listing CCS type-2 50kw and CCS type-2 100kw as separate standards.
That diagram does however leave out all the garbage proprietry charger sockets and data cables Apple have come up with over the years.
Physically they are the same, but the data rates are massively different. It's quite easy to plug into the non-USB3 port on older laptops and find yourself having a download time of hours, not minutes which it would be on USB3.That diagram does however leave out all the garbage proprietry charger sockets and data cables Apple have come up with over the years.
Which is much like when new ev owners plug into then43kW AC head at a rapid, not realising they have CCS. That's increasingly common.
No ideas for a name said:
Not quite sure why many have ripped in to the OP here - slightly clumsily worded, but he is basically right.
Firstly, the CHARGER is built-in to the vehicle. It needs to be so, so that it can control the charging to its own design/configuartion of cells. The charger manages the current and voltage profile being fed to the cells whilst monitoring temperature. The charger is chemistry specific.
The thing on people's walls that they call a charger - isn't. Its proper term is EVSE. Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment.
You've lost your self in a tale of describing the today of vehicle charging. OP says the charger should be “inboard” which I took as onboard... which it is. You just rocked up a technical description of those very much in car chargers which we all knew anyway.Firstly, the CHARGER is built-in to the vehicle. It needs to be so, so that it can control the charging to its own design/configuartion of cells. The charger manages the current and voltage profile being fed to the cells whilst monitoring temperature. The charger is chemistry specific.
The thing on people's walls that they call a charger - isn't. Its proper term is EVSE. Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment.
Then OP said all the connectors should be the same... which they largely are...
JonnyVTEC said:
You've lost your self in a tale of describing the today of vehicle charging. OP says the charger should be “inboard” which I took as onboard... which it is. You just rocked up a technical description of those very much in car chargers which we all knew anyway.
Then OP said all the connectors should be the same... which they largely are...
Maybe at cross purposes - but Yes, that is my point - the initial tone of replies seemed to make fun of the OP when he was in outline at least, correct.Then OP said all the connectors should be the same... which they largely are...
No ideas for a name said:
<snip>
Yup I didnt put down very clear what I was tryingt to say. My intention was to try and convey the need to have every car and every charge point the same. And every point to charge from being able to charge every car. And be able to supply the right amount of power voltage and current. Yes I get that we have some compatibility but its not quite there, needs uniformity right across the manufacturers. An ability to be suitable for the next few years as different electric cars come on line with different needs the source points can supply.
VRUSS.... vehicle recharge universal supply source.
essayer said:
I think we are already there. CCS (DC) with Type 2 (AC) in one connector is the de facto standard. Nissan are dropping Chademo and Renault have made CCS available on the Zoe.
Charge speed is the only variant and this is easy enough to publicise
This.Charge speed is the only variant and this is easy enough to publicise
Not sure what you think the problem still is OP, other than vehicles moving to 800v architecture to enable even faster charging all of the chargers and connectors are universal now Nissan have dropped Chademo as above.
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