Batteries are not the Solution, Synthetic Fuels maybe
Discussion
Is this personal? Bioethanol and biodiesel are already used a fair bit in some countries aren't they? Problem is the question of arable farmland and the ethics of fuel for westerners or food for locals...
Mind for the $billions they can spend on a single oil platform I'm sure you could make farmland of what is currently desert that'd yeild the low grade crop required. If the will truly existed. But when we live in a world in the stranglehold of a pandemic where drugs that show great potential are dismissed as they're out-of-patent so there's no commercial interest in getting them approved, says all you need.
Mind for the $billions they can spend on a single oil platform I'm sure you could make farmland of what is currently desert that'd yeild the low grade crop required. If the will truly existed. But when we live in a world in the stranglehold of a pandemic where drugs that show great potential are dismissed as they're out-of-patent so there's no commercial interest in getting them approved, says all you need.
I see EV's as more progress. They allow things that are impossible/much harder than ICE.
Think of it more like the progress you've already seen through history. We don't still use gas lighting at home, your mobile phone runs off a battery, not a small ICE etc. etc. We're moving from analogue to digital, and all the benefits that brings.
Sure, right now there's a few comparative downsides in certain areas, but also many benefits in others.
Just like there are steam engines still in existence, so there'll still be ICE. And likely something synthetic powering them. It'll also likely be far too expensive compared for the average Joe to consider.
Think of it more like the progress you've already seen through history. We don't still use gas lighting at home, your mobile phone runs off a battery, not a small ICE etc. etc. We're moving from analogue to digital, and all the benefits that brings.
Sure, right now there's a few comparative downsides in certain areas, but also many benefits in others.
Just like there are steam engines still in existence, so there'll still be ICE. And likely something synthetic powering them. It'll also likely be far too expensive compared for the average Joe to consider.
There is no "The" answer.
There are still OX drawn carts in use in the world. Oxen were not "the" answer. Horses were not "the" answer. Electric wasn't "the" answer. Petrol wasn't "the" answer. Diesel wasn't "the" answer. Fuel cells were not "the" answer.
In the western world, I'd put my bet long term on car services. You tell your company what type of journey you require, a vehicle arrives appropriate to your use. Moving house? Fuel cell van. Going to work? Single person BEV. Staging a coup in a 3rd world country? Horses, Honda Cubs, and a Toyota pickup running on Synthetic fuel.
There are still OX drawn carts in use in the world. Oxen were not "the" answer. Horses were not "the" answer. Electric wasn't "the" answer. Petrol wasn't "the" answer. Diesel wasn't "the" answer. Fuel cells were not "the" answer.
In the western world, I'd put my bet long term on car services. You tell your company what type of journey you require, a vehicle arrives appropriate to your use. Moving house? Fuel cell van. Going to work? Single person BEV. Staging a coup in a 3rd world country? Horses, Honda Cubs, and a Toyota pickup running on Synthetic fuel.
Teddy Lop said:
Bioethanol and biodiesel are already used a fair bit in some countries aren't they? Problem is the question of arable farmland and the ethics of fuel for westerners or food for locals...
Brazil makes about as much as the EU, I think. Both produce about 6bn litres a year, which sounds like a lot until you realise that the UK alone uses about 50bn litres a year. And that already involved knackering the Amazon to grow sugar cane and growing a load of wheat and rye in Europe (more land under monoculture, more fertilizers and pesticides themselves derived from crude). So it's a contribution, but a small contribution and one that creates plenty of problems.Trying to grow crops in the desert is not easy. Ask the Israelis. They're not exactly dim or disorganised and they've been trying to do it for years. They have made some breakthroughs in desalination technology, but it uses a load of electricity which could be used to do other things like ... charge up BEVs ... or at least be put into some other storage technology. Growing stuff in the desert is just about viable if it's for national food security or to grow crops you can sell for an absolute packet. But for biofuel?
People have been floating ideas like bioengineering algae to produce oils. You grow and harvest algal blooms in sea water, then process them to extract the oil they produced. Perhaps that sort of approach will turn out to be viable at scale?
If it uses less energy than prospecting for, drilling and transporting crude oil then it has legs. Bear in mind the huge engineering required to drill (rigs etc) and transport (massive tankers) crude oil.
Then bear in mind it would be locally produced so money would stay in the country. Vast amounts of money.
Then bear in mind it would be locally produced so money would stay in the country. Vast amounts of money.
off_again said:
I think thats probably the most likely outcome too!
We, as in the car driving public, have got used to the idea that we can fill up in 5 minutes and drive 400 miles without stopping. And while that might be technically true (and several people have tried to argue that here on PH), its really not what 80% of the car driving public actually does. Sure, there are people who actually do need to have a vehicle that can travel hundreds of miles with ease and with a fast refill option, but they are certainly not the norm. Even if we look at percentiles, averages or means, the average car driver does significantly less than 100 miles per day and could easily cope with some form of EV with ease - though improvements in charging networks absolutely have to occur before this could happen en-masse.
While it still takes time to charge an EV, the convenience of them is often ignored. If you have the option of charging at home or work, it suddenly gets a lot easier. Just charge up when needed and you dont have to stop at a petrol station again! I have an i3 REX and was expecting to use much more fuel than I have - just a little extra planning and I think we have filled it up 3 times in 8 months? And the last time was my newly passed daughter not realizing and just running the damn thing out of electrons AND petrol! But hey, its simple.
If we can relax a little on the whole range thing, I really do think that batteries are a viable way forward. I do find it utterly strange that we have EV manufacturers chasing frankly stupid performance figures (Tesla Plaid with 0-60 in 2.something seconds). I can remember early XR3's and GTE's getting the same sprint in 7 seconds and we thought they were fast enough. Do we really need to focus our efforts on an expensive car that can do that? Or should we be focusing our efforts on a more affordable car that has a wider appeal? Who knows, but we do need to rethink our approach to transport and how we can use it sustainably and with minimal polution going forward.
I moved away from the UK 7 years ago but have had the opportunity to visit London several times since. While I am first in line to rant against the congestion charge and the frankly ridiculous charges they now have, the reduction of pollution is absolutely noticeable. The air is cleaner and I had significantly fewer black bogies!!! Crude I know, but that has to the aim - reduce that localized pollution and re-think how we do the transport side of things. EV's are a part of that, even if they arent the best approach. And if we can get our head out of the whole "I need to be able to drive 400 miles without stopping at a drop of a hat", we might actually get somewhere.
Seems so wonderful + incentives too yet pretty much no one wants them in the UK other than the zero bik company car drivers. Why is that?We, as in the car driving public, have got used to the idea that we can fill up in 5 minutes and drive 400 miles without stopping. And while that might be technically true (and several people have tried to argue that here on PH), its really not what 80% of the car driving public actually does. Sure, there are people who actually do need to have a vehicle that can travel hundreds of miles with ease and with a fast refill option, but they are certainly not the norm. Even if we look at percentiles, averages or means, the average car driver does significantly less than 100 miles per day and could easily cope with some form of EV with ease - though improvements in charging networks absolutely have to occur before this could happen en-masse.
While it still takes time to charge an EV, the convenience of them is often ignored. If you have the option of charging at home or work, it suddenly gets a lot easier. Just charge up when needed and you dont have to stop at a petrol station again! I have an i3 REX and was expecting to use much more fuel than I have - just a little extra planning and I think we have filled it up 3 times in 8 months? And the last time was my newly passed daughter not realizing and just running the damn thing out of electrons AND petrol! But hey, its simple.
If we can relax a little on the whole range thing, I really do think that batteries are a viable way forward. I do find it utterly strange that we have EV manufacturers chasing frankly stupid performance figures (Tesla Plaid with 0-60 in 2.something seconds). I can remember early XR3's and GTE's getting the same sprint in 7 seconds and we thought they were fast enough. Do we really need to focus our efforts on an expensive car that can do that? Or should we be focusing our efforts on a more affordable car that has a wider appeal? Who knows, but we do need to rethink our approach to transport and how we can use it sustainably and with minimal polution going forward.
I moved away from the UK 7 years ago but have had the opportunity to visit London several times since. While I am first in line to rant against the congestion charge and the frankly ridiculous charges they now have, the reduction of pollution is absolutely noticeable. The air is cleaner and I had significantly fewer black bogies!!! Crude I know, but that has to the aim - reduce that localized pollution and re-think how we do the transport side of things. EV's are a part of that, even if they arent the best approach. And if we can get our head out of the whole "I need to be able to drive 400 miles without stopping at a drop of a hat", we might actually get somewhere.
TX.
Oilchange said:
If it uses less energy than prospecting for, drilling and transporting crude oil then it has legs. Bear in mind the huge engineering required to drill (rigs etc) and transport (massive tankers) crude oil.
Then bear in mind it would be locally produced so money would stay in the country. Vast amounts of money.
If that were the case, people would be doing it already. There is certainly some considerable cost associated with exploring, extracting, transporting, refining, etc but that's always been hugely outweighed by the profit. Crude is an amazing starting point for producing fuel. It's vastly better than sugar beet, etcThen bear in mind it would be locally produced so money would stay in the country. Vast amounts of money.
georgeyboy12345 said:
The days of internal combustion cars are very much numbered. That old article you posted may have niche applications for motorsport use once it becomes economically unviable to extract any more oil from the ground.
Battery technology is finally progressing rapidly now that it is having some investment at last. 1000 mile capable batteries are only a couple of years off. Rapid charging in under 5 minutes is about a decade off. Environmentally friendly batteries that don't rely on rare earth metals, and lightweight batteries a couple of decades off.
Ah the trusty old Miraculous Battery Improvements 10 Years Away statement Battery technology is finally progressing rapidly now that it is having some investment at last. 1000 mile capable batteries are only a couple of years off. Rapid charging in under 5 minutes is about a decade off. Environmentally friendly batteries that don't rely on rare earth metals, and lightweight batteries a couple of decades off.
TX.
jason61c said:
hunter 66 said:
EV is at the very earliest days of its development ..... which will move faster now big companies like VW are getting involved ..... yes synthetic fuels for racing , as ICE on the road will be obsolete . Plaid does 0-60 in under 2 secs and soon will be lighter and handle even better .
Yes I personally like slow noisy cars ......but they are the past sadly
I'd like to see an actual test of it doing 0-60 in under 2. also like to see how repeatable it is.Yes I personally like slow noisy cars ......but they are the past sadly
I'd also like to see how long it takes to complete a 5 lap race of the ring against a vw golf.
They're still slow compared to race cars.
TX.
ATG said:
Oilchange said:
If it uses less energy than prospecting for, drilling and transporting crude oil then it has legs. Bear in mind the huge engineering required to drill (rigs etc) and transport (massive tankers) crude oil.
Then bear in mind it would be locally produced so money would stay in the country. Vast amounts of money.
If that were the case, people would be doing it already. There is certainly some considerable cost associated with exploring, extracting, transporting, refining, etc but that's always been hugely outweighed by the profit. Crude is an amazing starting point for producing fuel. It's vastly better than sugar beet, etcThen bear in mind it would be locally produced so money would stay in the country. Vast amounts of money.
eta the appetite to produce ethanol on an industrial scale simply hasn't been there, the oil companies certainly haven't adopted it as their infrastructure and profits have been based solely around crude. It would be legislation led.
Edited by Oilchange on Monday 21st June 22:56
I was driving through Germany the other day and I didn’t see too many (or any) EVs in the fast lane hanging around 200-250km/h. I’m assuming Porsche is pushing eFuels more as a lifestyle option to enable fast driving. Because if it’s one thing your average six figure EV cannot do is travel fast for very long and I’m assuming if you spend big money on something in that market then you want to be able to play in the fast lane.
If Porsche and others can crack it, I would love to continue to drive ICE for recreational purposes. But I’d say good ol’ petrol will be around for a long time yet and might even get cheaper as new ICE cars are being phased out. Which will make it even more challenging for eFuels makers. I’d imagine that increased E content is a much likelier path tbh.
If Porsche and others can crack it, I would love to continue to drive ICE for recreational purposes. But I’d say good ol’ petrol will be around for a long time yet and might even get cheaper as new ICE cars are being phased out. Which will make it even more challenging for eFuels makers. I’d imagine that increased E content is a much likelier path tbh.
jason61c said:
hunter 66 said:
EV is at the very earliest days of its development ..... which will move faster now big companies like VW are getting involved ..... yes synthetic fuels for racing , as ICE on the road will be obsolete . Plaid does 0-60 in under 2 secs and soon will be lighter and handle even better .
Yes I personally like slow noisy cars ......but they are the past sadly
I'd like to see an actual test of it doing 0-60 in under 2. also like to see how repeatable it is.Yes I personally like slow noisy cars ......but they are the past sadly
ATG said:
Brazil makes about as much as the EU, I think. Both produce about 6bn litres a year, which sounds like a lot until you realise that the UK alone uses about 50bn litres a year. And that already involved knackering the Amazon to grow sugar cane and growing a load of wheat and rye in Europe (more land under monoculture, more fertilizers and pesticides themselves derived from crude). So it's a contribution, but a small contribution and one that creates plenty of problems.
Trying to grow crops in the desert is not easy. Ask the Israelis. They're not exactly dim or disorganised and they've been trying to do it for years. They have made some breakthroughs in desalination technology, but it uses a load of electricity which could be used to do other things like ... charge up BEVs ... or at least be put into some other storage technology. Growing stuff in the desert is just about viable if it's for national food security or to grow crops you can sell for an absolute packet. But for biofuel?
People have been floating ideas like bioengineering algae to produce oils. You grow and harvest algal blooms in sea water, then process them to extract the oil they produced. Perhaps that sort of approach will turn out to be viable at scale?
The Israelis are trying to grow specific delicate crops and compete with those same crops grown in their optimum conditions. A biofuel crop would allow huge flexibility for hardiness as most people won't be eating it and commenting on the taste - the crop can afford to be subjectively poor so long as it grows and converts sunlight into accessable energy.Trying to grow crops in the desert is not easy. Ask the Israelis. They're not exactly dim or disorganised and they've been trying to do it for years. They have made some breakthroughs in desalination technology, but it uses a load of electricity which could be used to do other things like ... charge up BEVs ... or at least be put into some other storage technology. Growing stuff in the desert is just about viable if it's for national food security or to grow crops you can sell for an absolute packet. But for biofuel?
People have been floating ideas like bioengineering algae to produce oils. You grow and harvest algal blooms in sea water, then process them to extract the oil they produced. Perhaps that sort of approach will turn out to be viable at scale?
The sea algae stuff is interesting but (tin foil hat time) it'd be very disruptive given the prevalence of sea. Very. Also you'd have to hope they get the bio-engineering correct because that really does have doomsday scenario written all over it.
Dave Hedgehog said:
jason61c said:
hunter 66 said:
EV is at the very earliest days of its development ..... which will move faster now big companies like VW are getting involved ..... yes synthetic fuels for racing , as ICE on the road will be obsolete . Plaid does 0-60 in under 2 secs and soon will be lighter and handle even better .
Yes I personally like slow noisy cars ......but they are the past sadly
I'd like to see an actual test of it doing 0-60 in under 2. also like to see how repeatable it is.Yes I personally like slow noisy cars ......but they are the past sadly
Mototrend said:
Teddy Lop said:
ATG said:
Brazil makes about as much as the EU, I think. Both produce about 6bn litres a year, which sounds like a lot until you realise that the UK alone uses about 50bn litres a year. And that already involved knackering the Amazon to grow sugar cane and growing a load of wheat and rye in Europe (more land under monoculture, more fertilizers and pesticides themselves derived from crude). So it's a contribution, but a small contribution and one that creates plenty of problems.
Trying to grow crops in the desert is not easy. Ask the Israelis. They're not exactly dim or disorganised and they've been trying to do it for years. They have made some breakthroughs in desalination technology, but it uses a load of electricity which could be used to do other things like ... charge up BEVs ... or at least be put into some other storage technology. Growing stuff in the desert is just about viable if it's for national food security or to grow crops you can sell for an absolute packet. But for biofuel?
People have been floating ideas like bioengineering algae to produce oils. You grow and harvest algal blooms in sea water, then process them to extract the oil they produced. Perhaps that sort of approach will turn out to be viable at scale?
The Israelis are trying to grow specific delicate crops and compete with those same crops grown in their optimum conditions. A biofuel crop would allow huge flexibility for hardiness as most people won't be eating it and commenting on the taste - the crop can afford to be subjectively poor so long as it grows and converts sunlight into accessable energy.Trying to grow crops in the desert is not easy. Ask the Israelis. They're not exactly dim or disorganised and they've been trying to do it for years. They have made some breakthroughs in desalination technology, but it uses a load of electricity which could be used to do other things like ... charge up BEVs ... or at least be put into some other storage technology. Growing stuff in the desert is just about viable if it's for national food security or to grow crops you can sell for an absolute packet. But for biofuel?
People have been floating ideas like bioengineering algae to produce oils. You grow and harvest algal blooms in sea water, then process them to extract the oil they produced. Perhaps that sort of approach will turn out to be viable at scale?
The sea algae stuff is interesting but (tin foil hat time) it'd be very disruptive given the prevalence of sea. Very. Also you'd have to hope they get the bio-engineering correct because that really does have doomsday scenario written all over it.
Terminator X said:
Seems so wonderful + incentives too yet pretty much no one wants them in the UK other than the zero bik company car drivers. Why is that?
TX.
I wanted an EV, it's not a company car.TX.
Terminator X said:
Ah the trusty old Miraculous Battery Improvements 10 Years Away statement
TX.
My 2019 i3S has twice the battery capacity of my 2016 i3. Seems like improvement to simple me.TX.
Terminator X said:
EV drivers clearly don't care about driving fast though as every one I see on the road without fail is driving at or below the limit and pulls away at a snails pace. Perhaps they are all worried about the range after maxing them out
TX.
When using my i3S for work I drive economically.TX.
Crewe to Derby 100 mile round trip this week cost me £1.00.
When I drive the i3S or my TVR Tuscan in my own time, I drive to enjoy them.
The i3S is great fun to drive.
Have you tried one ?
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