When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars?
Discussion
Research by Argonne National Laboratory in Chicago, suggests that higher carbon emmissions building an EV than an ICE are offset by lower operating emmissions between years 1 and 6, depending mainly on carbon used in power generation which varies by country.
Being a US study, lifetime mileage assumptions are higher than UK, but it might be of interest:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
Being a US study, lifetime mileage assumptions are higher than UK, but it might be of interest:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
Comparing a Tesla M3 with a fuel sipping, cheap, and very slow Toyota Corolla, so from the outset a poor arguably biased comparison.
But even then, the break even results are clear, and unsurprisingly heavily influenced by the local grid mix.
Norway grid mix: 8,400 miles
US grid mix: 13,500 miles
China grid mix: 78,700 miles
So within about a year in a modern western country. Yea but, CoBaLt aNd pOwEr StAtIoNs!
But even then, the break even results are clear, and unsurprisingly heavily influenced by the local grid mix.
Norway grid mix: 8,400 miles
US grid mix: 13,500 miles
China grid mix: 78,700 miles
So within about a year in a modern western country. Yea but, CoBaLt aNd pOwEr StAtIoNs!
I daresay if you sign up to an energy supplier like Octopus and (possibly) pay a little extra for renewable energy anyway, the timescale is reduced considerably. We are a 100% electric car household now and with predominantly home off-peak charging (and solar, and a home battery) I would hope we're well on the way to being green(er)
before that spark occurs and the fuel air mix ignites and drives that piston down a hell of a lot of pollution has been created in the process of taking that crude oil from the ground to the fuel tank. In addittion to that there is the consideration on what carbon impact there was already in gearing up the equipment and processes to get the oil from the drawing board construction of the equipment and installation etc. That whole process of getting the hydrocarbon itself.... and it has to be done for every single litre of fuel... imagine.
It appears that its not so much time but milage that the break even point is met. more your using the car the quicket that point is crossed.
It appears that its not so much time but milage that the break even point is met. more your using the car the quicket that point is crossed.
The Spruce Goose said:
Carlososos said:
It’s an argument that has been answered over and over. Electric good burning bad.
How does that work with circa 50% of Uk electricity supplied by Fossil fuels?13 fossil powered plants on the books as well, to meet potential leccy demand.
100,000 cars burning hydrocarbons... a lot less efficient than one power station charging those cars...
no emission in the immediate locale of the car leading to cleaner air for all...
That one power station having exhaust treatment would be a lot easier to maintain than 100,000 emissions control equpment fitted to cars.
ruggedscotty said:
quite easy to explain this one....
100,000 cars burning hydrocarbons... a lot less efficient than one power station charging those cars...
no emission in the immediate locale of the car leading to cleaner air for all...
That one power station having exhaust treatment would be a lot easier to maintain than 100,000 emissions control equpment fitted to cars.
''Electric good burning bad,'' was the statement.100,000 cars burning hydrocarbons... a lot less efficient than one power station charging those cars...
no emission in the immediate locale of the car leading to cleaner air for all...
That one power station having exhaust treatment would be a lot easier to maintain than 100,000 emissions control equpment fitted to cars.
As i pointed out the national grid is currently 50% fossil fuels, so burning, bad, yet will be providing to electric cars. Surely clean electricity is better first that have electric cars?
It seems like the chicken before the egg and realistically people seem to think electric cars are carbon neutral or negative, yet don't really understand where the actual power is coming from...
Fastlane said:
Smoggy XJR said:
And the environmental damage caused by the mining of rare earth elements?
You mean like the cobalt that has been used in petrol production for years?However,
https://earth.org/rare-earth-mining-has-devastated...
Smoggy XJR said:
Fastlane said:
Smoggy XJR said:
And the environmental damage caused by the mining of rare earth elements?
You mean like the cobalt that has been used in petrol production for years?However,
https://earth.org/rare-earth-mining-has-devastated...
too many want to jump on the its wrecking the environment... thing is hydrocarbons are absolutetly screwing the environment - from exploration to mining to processing to transporting to buring...
However you look at it the over all net result is that BEV are much less harmful, but several orders of magnitude than the effects of the hydrocarbon powered cars have on the environment.
yup BEV are not without issue, but the alternative is to walk everywhere and that isnt going to happen ?
However you look at it the over all net result is that BEV are much less harmful, but several orders of magnitude than the effects of the hydrocarbon powered cars have on the environment.
yup BEV are not without issue, but the alternative is to walk everywhere and that isnt going to happen ?
The Spruce Goose said:
ruggedscotty said:
quite easy to explain this one....
100,000 cars burning hydrocarbons... a lot less efficient than one power station charging those cars...
no emission in the immediate locale of the car leading to cleaner air for all...
That one power station having exhaust treatment would be a lot easier to maintain than 100,000 emissions control equpment fitted to cars.
''Electric good burning bad,'' was the statement.100,000 cars burning hydrocarbons... a lot less efficient than one power station charging those cars...
no emission in the immediate locale of the car leading to cleaner air for all...
That one power station having exhaust treatment would be a lot easier to maintain than 100,000 emissions control equpment fitted to cars.
As i pointed out the national grid is currently 50% fossil fuels, so burning, bad, yet will be providing to electric cars. Surely clean electricity is better first that have electric cars?
It seems like the chicken before the egg and realistically people seem to think electric cars are carbon neutral or negative, yet don't really understand where the actual power is coming from...
~60% Vs ~25%
So not ideal, but an improvement
annodomini2 said:
Power stations are much more thermally efficient than an ICE engine
~60% Vs ~25%
So not ideal, but an improvement
no ones is disagreeing with that, but people have to understand electricity isn't made from rainbows, fossil duels will be burnt for at least the next 25 years to provide electricity.~60% Vs ~25%
So not ideal, but an improvement
Electric cars are the future but the real solution is clean electricity at the start.
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