The push for us to have electric cars
Discussion
BroadsRS6 said:
mike13 said:
Read the thread on first charging experience on the ev thread, if that doesn't put you off, nothing will. we're years away from it being practical for daily use.
Totally. Electric cars and their crap range in reality, not in the sales gumph, are hopeless for most people still.Edited by mike13 on Monday 5th July 07:51
Add in boring and motoring is going down an unfortunate route where truly exciting cars are being abolished.
Pistonheads will never be the same if we all end up in self driving silent cars, sorry.
The idea that it's government control freakery forcing us down this route doesn't make much sense. We're a democracy. The country is heading in the direction of electric passenger vehicles because people are voting for it, particularly younger people, the group you claim you're worried about. Environmental damage is more important to them than engine noise. Objectively that seems pretty reasonable.
When we were young and aspiring to own big engined, charismatic cars we didn't realise those machines would make a materially important contribution to stuffing up the environment. But for at least the last twenty years it has been very clear that they do, so we need to let go of or at least change those childhood aspirations.
If you search in the other EV threads you will see a post from someone in the industry stating that the BOM (Bill of Materials) for EV's will eventually be 75% of an ICE vehicle, as they are so much simpler.
Current cost of EV's is mainly driven by battery cost, and these costs will come down as production increases
How much did a PC, Mobile phone etc cost 20 years ago?
Charging infrastructure will catch up, in the same way that mobile phone masts proliferated - although similar to phone masts I can see there being "holes" in the network. But solutions will be found (convert petrol stations into EV charging points with Office space to allow WFH people to work whilst charging their cars? )
I think the aim for no new ICE cars in 2030 is unachievable, but the push to get there will drive ever increasing numbers of EV's on the roads
Current cost of EV's is mainly driven by battery cost, and these costs will come down as production increases
How much did a PC, Mobile phone etc cost 20 years ago?
Charging infrastructure will catch up, in the same way that mobile phone masts proliferated - although similar to phone masts I can see there being "holes" in the network. But solutions will be found (convert petrol stations into EV charging points with Office space to allow WFH people to work whilst charging their cars? )
I think the aim for no new ICE cars in 2030 is unachievable, but the push to get there will drive ever increasing numbers of EV's on the roads
Evanivitch said:
mike13 said:
Read the thread on first charging experience on the ev thread, if that doesn't put you off, nothing will. we're years away from it being practical for daily use.
Or like 3 months when all the unreliable Ecotricity Electric Highway chargers have been replaced by the new owners Gridserve, and in 12-18 months when dual charger locations are upgraded to 6-12 chargers.Edited by mike13 on Monday 5th July 07:51
Oh and the Instavolt chargers going in at McDonald's, Costa, KFC.
Podpoint at Tesco (hundreds of destination chargers in last 12 months).
So not really years away....
It'll happen, this i know but i stick to my thoughts that it is years away for the vast majority of people. That's one part of piston
heads that annoys me, this belief that everyones loaded, when in reality most are struggling to pay the bills.
Seems to me like a big game of cat and mouse at the moment. Government wants us all in EVs but the public are generally unwilling to commit at the moment.
I have the feeling that a big revolution is on its way, maybe a big breakthrough in battery technology or perhaps a shift in emphasis in fuel cells. Either way the current crop of EVs will soon be white elephants and a lot of people are holding off on being early adopters.
I’m not anti-EV at all, in fact quite like the idea of silently whooshing around, but at the moment there are too many negatives for me to realistically consider it.
To answer the OP if your son wants an EV the answer as others have said is simply to buy used. Otherwise stick with ICE, don’t worry about it and wait and see what happens. Millions of others will be doing just that.
I have the feeling that a big revolution is on its way, maybe a big breakthrough in battery technology or perhaps a shift in emphasis in fuel cells. Either way the current crop of EVs will soon be white elephants and a lot of people are holding off on being early adopters.
I’m not anti-EV at all, in fact quite like the idea of silently whooshing around, but at the moment there are too many negatives for me to realistically consider it.
To answer the OP if your son wants an EV the answer as others have said is simply to buy used. Otherwise stick with ICE, don’t worry about it and wait and see what happens. Millions of others will be doing just that.
BroadsRS6 said:
PH for me will always stand for combustion engine-d, great sounding, fast cars. If i'm alone on this that is fine. Until the control freaks force my hand i'll always have one eye on what to buy next and it will always be something with lots of cylinders, a shed full of bhp, loads of gears and most likely 2 turbos.
Life's too short. Live the only one we get and grow old disgracefully.
You seem particularly ranty this morning?Life's too short. Live the only one we get and grow old disgracefully.
As a lifelong petrolhead who decided to experiment with EV a couple of years ago I've come to the following conclusion. If you can charge at home and aren't covering big distances on a regular basis they are far better than ICE for mundane daily duties, but will never replace a good ICE car for weekend thrills on a good road. Therefore EV will be staying but will also look to add a proper ICE drivers car to get my kicks as seems a better solution than a one size fits all car of either type that will be compromised one way or another,
mike13 said:
Evanivitch said:
mike13 said:
Read the thread on first charging experience on the ev thread, if that doesn't put you off, nothing will. we're years away from it being practical for daily use.
Or like 3 months when all the unreliable Ecotricity Electric Highway chargers have been replaced by the new owners Gridserve, and in 12-18 months when dual charger locations are upgraded to 6-12 chargers.Edited by mike13 on Monday 5th July 07:51
Oh and the Instavolt chargers going in at McDonald's, Costa, KFC.
Podpoint at Tesco (hundreds of destination chargers in last 12 months).
So not really years away....
It'll happen, this i know but i stick to my thoughts that it is years away for the vast majority of people. That's one part of piston
heads that annoys me, this belief that everyones loaded, when in reality most are struggling to pay the bills.
Let's consider the Golf and ID3 examples of actually making an electric car and no shoe-horning an EV onto an ICE production line.
The VW Golf starts at £23k RRP. The ID3 starts at £28k.
Yes, there need to be more options for people without driveways to charge, but an hour at a rapid (at a gym, or coffee shop, or cinema), or a day at a fast charger (at workplace or in shared parking area) will last the mean average person a whole week.
BroadsRS6 said:
The National Grid said in 2019 that during winter they get close to full capacity (and thus power cuts are very close for houses). Won't it be good when 10 or 20 million people plug their cars in, mostly at the same time of day.
Whilst the cars might be plugged in at the same (similar) time of day, the actual charging might not start until say midnight or whatever the individual has selected on their charger / app / car controls etc to take advantage of cheap overnight electricity (and you WOULD be on a suitable tariff as that's part and parcel of buying / owning an EV). Generating companies want people to use overnight electricity as they cant easily ramp up / down generation as that makes it un-efficient. The elec co's complain when we all switch on our kettles (etc) during ad breaks of (socially) important events in the winter time when those on elec heating are also using it the most. You'll probably find (my guess) that as tech moves forward (next 5 years or so perhaps?) the remaining charge in elec cars will be used to push into the grid during high requirement times and them fed back during the quieter overnight times.BroadsRS6 said:
PH for me will always stand for combustion engine-d, great sounding, fast cars. If i'm alone on this that is fine. Until the control freaks force my hand i'll always have one eye on what to buy next and it will always be something with lots of cylinders, a shed full of bhp, loads of gears and most likely 2 turbos.
Life's too short. Live the only one we get and grow old disgracefully.
I drive a BMW i3s:Life's too short. Live the only one we get and grow old disgracefully.
Quiet, comfortable, convient, plenty fast enough. Perfect daily transport, that because it is so efficient, also happens to mean it makes much better use of the energy it is fed than an ICE passcar (5 year efficiency average for our last i3 was just over 160 mpg energy equivalency)
I also drive a 630 bhp, 840 kg, sequential rwd, wide arched ex UK tarmac rally car escapee.
Basically turns petrol into noise and smoke. Does 3 mpg. Terrible for our planet, but because it does about 3 miles a year, and there is literally only one of them, also irrelevant.
I fail to see why EVs are such a problem?
People seem so threated by a car which is powered by another source of energy than petrol? There is room for both surely?
SWoll said:
BroadsRS6 said:
PH for me will always stand for combustion engine-d, great sounding, fast cars. If i'm alone on this that is fine. Until the control freaks force my hand i'll always have one eye on what to buy next and it will always be something with lots of cylinders, a shed full of bhp, loads of gears and most likely 2 turbos.
Life's too short. Live the only one we get and grow old disgracefully.
You seem particularly ranty this morning?Life's too short. Live the only one we get and grow old disgracefully.
As a lifelong petrolhead who decided to experiment with EV a couple of years ago I've come to the following conclusion. If you can charge at home and aren't covering big distances on a regular basis they are far better than ICE for mundane daily duties, but will never replace a good ICE car for weekend thrills on a good road. Therefore EV will be staying but will also look to add a proper ICE drivers car to get my kicks as seems a better solution than a one size fits all car of either type that will be compromised one way or another,
My cambelt snapped... ruined the engine...
Im never having an IC engine again, pile of crud....
incidents happen.. such is the folly of mechanical contraptions. The IC is dead. its finished as far as cars go, its in its deathly decline. a new age is arriving. A way to power a car that meets with the requirements of the population.
Who exactly needs 500 miles range every single day when the majority of journies are to the shops dropping the sprogs at school or going to the station to go to work ?
We here on this forum yes by default are petrol heads etc, but the majority of people out there dont give a stuff of the motive unit in the car, if it is a quad turbo V16 1000hp beast or a three phase motor... with a 500kWh battery ? the bottom line is does it meet my transport needs,.
cost just now isnt really applicable as electric is coming in and as new developments come on stream and economies of scale take effect then those new electric cars will be comparable in cost to what we have for run of the mill cars just now.
Im never having an IC engine again, pile of crud....
incidents happen.. such is the folly of mechanical contraptions. The IC is dead. its finished as far as cars go, its in its deathly decline. a new age is arriving. A way to power a car that meets with the requirements of the population.
Who exactly needs 500 miles range every single day when the majority of journies are to the shops dropping the sprogs at school or going to the station to go to work ?
We here on this forum yes by default are petrol heads etc, but the majority of people out there dont give a stuff of the motive unit in the car, if it is a quad turbo V16 1000hp beast or a three phase motor... with a 500kWh battery ? the bottom line is does it meet my transport needs,.
cost just now isnt really applicable as electric is coming in and as new developments come on stream and economies of scale take effect then those new electric cars will be comparable in cost to what we have for run of the mill cars just now.
Also please note, we are moving to EV's because our fossil fuel addiction is making our planet more volatile and dangerous
That effects each and everyone of us on it, and effects the poor dissproportionately more, because they simply cannot afford to sort out the fixes that the rich can (like buying AC for their house in a heat wave for example, or moving away from that busy road where the cheap houses are)
If you actually cared about "poor people" you'd not be driving round in a car that cost £150,000 and does 20 mpg.
EVs help solve a problem, a problem that is very likely to become mankinds greatest challenge in the next 25 to 50 years. This is NOT a zero sum game, and nobody is stopping you having a "fun" car (yet....)
That effects each and everyone of us on it, and effects the poor dissproportionately more, because they simply cannot afford to sort out the fixes that the rich can (like buying AC for their house in a heat wave for example, or moving away from that busy road where the cheap houses are)
If you actually cared about "poor people" you'd not be driving round in a car that cost £150,000 and does 20 mpg.
EVs help solve a problem, a problem that is very likely to become mankinds greatest challenge in the next 25 to 50 years. This is NOT a zero sum game, and nobody is stopping you having a "fun" car (yet....)
Agree with the OP on this subject.
There is no way I will ever buy an electric milk float as something I'd want to drive for personal use. I don't even go as far as a boring automatic gearbox options on internal combustion engines
Happy for others to buy electric if they believe the massive hype over global warming and the scaremongering damage that they prophesise , but for others surely in a free society we should still have choice.
I know that I'll no longer be voting for my traditional colours come future elections, I'll be looking for a party that has more of a rational outlook and one that won't enter in to vanity competitions as to who can go more "carbon zero" than the other, whilst China and others increase their CO2 output and laugh at us.
There is no way I will ever buy an electric milk float as something I'd want to drive for personal use. I don't even go as far as a boring automatic gearbox options on internal combustion engines
Happy for others to buy electric if they believe the massive hype over global warming and the scaremongering damage that they prophesise , but for others surely in a free society we should still have choice.
I know that I'll no longer be voting for my traditional colours come future elections, I'll be looking for a party that has more of a rational outlook and one that won't enter in to vanity competitions as to who can go more "carbon zero" than the other, whilst China and others increase their CO2 output and laugh at us.
GroundZero said:
Agree with the OP on this subject.
There is no way I will ever buy an electric milk float as something I'd want to drive for personal use. I don't even go as far as a boring automatic gearbox options on internal combustion engines
Happy for others to buy electric if they believe the massive hype over global warming and the scaremongering damage that they prophesise , but for others surely in a free society we should still have choice.
I know that I'll no longer be voting for my traditional colours come future elections, I'll be looking for a party that has more of a rational outlook and one that won't enter in to vanity competitions as to who can go more "carbon zero" than the other, whilst China and others increase their CO2 output and laugh at us.
Can you imagine the moaning from GE if it hits 50 degC and he hasn't got an AC and he's sweating his tit's off despite the fact it's 3am in the morning? There is no way I will ever buy an electric milk float as something I'd want to drive for personal use. I don't even go as far as a boring automatic gearbox options on internal combustion engines
Happy for others to buy electric if they believe the massive hype over global warming and the scaremongering damage that they prophesise , but for others surely in a free society we should still have choice.
I know that I'll no longer be voting for my traditional colours come future elections, I'll be looking for a party that has more of a rational outlook and one that won't enter in to vanity competitions as to who can go more "carbon zero" than the other, whilst China and others increase their CO2 output and laugh at us.
But of course, that'll all be the "governments fault", or some leftish conspiracy to take away his freedom on some other absolute nonsense......
GroundZero said:
Agree with the OP on this subject.
There is no way I will ever buy an electric milk float as something I'd want to drive for personal use. I don't even go as far as a boring automatic gearbox options on internal combustion engines
Happy for others to buy electric if they believe the massive hype over global warming and the scaremongering damage that they prophesise , but for others surely in a free society we should still have choice.
I know that I'll no longer be voting for my traditional colours come future elections, I'll be looking for a party that has more of a rational outlook and one that won't enter in to vanity competitions as to who can go more "carbon zero" than the other, whilst China and others increase their CO2 output and laugh at us.
Yep, the da xiang in the fangjian. There is no way I will ever buy an electric milk float as something I'd want to drive for personal use. I don't even go as far as a boring automatic gearbox options on internal combustion engines
Happy for others to buy electric if they believe the massive hype over global warming and the scaremongering damage that they prophesise , but for others surely in a free society we should still have choice.
I know that I'll no longer be voting for my traditional colours come future elections, I'll be looking for a party that has more of a rational outlook and one that won't enter in to vanity competitions as to who can go more "carbon zero" than the other, whilst China and others increase their CO2 output and laugh at us.
GroundZero said:
Agree with the OP on this subject.
There is no way I will ever buy an electric milk float as something I'd want to drive for personal use. I don't even go as far as a boring automatic gearbox options on internal combustion engines
Happy for others to buy electric if they believe the massive hype over global warming and the scaremongering damage that they prophesise , but for others surely in a free society we should still have choice.
I know that I'll no longer be voting for my traditional colours come future elections, I'll be looking for a party that has more of a rational outlook and one that won't enter in to vanity competitions as to who can go more "carbon zero" than the other, whilst China and others increase their CO2 output and laugh at us.
Assuming you also rely on hand-cranked starts, carburetors, manual chokes and leader fuel?There is no way I will ever buy an electric milk float as something I'd want to drive for personal use. I don't even go as far as a boring automatic gearbox options on internal combustion engines
Happy for others to buy electric if they believe the massive hype over global warming and the scaremongering damage that they prophesise , but for others surely in a free society we should still have choice.
I know that I'll no longer be voting for my traditional colours come future elections, I'll be looking for a party that has more of a rational outlook and one that won't enter in to vanity competitions as to who can go more "carbon zero" than the other, whilst China and others increase their CO2 output and laugh at us.
blueg33 said:
How bad is battery production for the environment? A sustainable power source is much more than just CO2. My fear is pollution caused by battery production and disposal.
Serously, do some reseach, this has be thoughly debunked about a million times on the internet and about 100 times on very EV thread on PH.Last week, remember the f
kING SEA WAS ON FIRE in the Gulf of Mexico
Max_Torque said:
blueg33 said:
How bad is battery production for the environment? A sustainable power source is much more than just CO2. My fear is pollution caused by battery production and disposal.
Serously, do some reseach, this has be thoughly debunked about a million times on the internet and about 100 times on very EV thread on PH.Last week, remember the f
kING SEA WAS ON FIRE in the Gulf of MexicoMight as well say "yeah but look at Chernobyl/Bhutan/Fukushima/any industrial accident". A bit of the the roof blew off my parents house a few years back, grr, bloody combustion engines.
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