The push for us to have electric cars
Discussion
BroadsRS6 said:
PH for me will always stand for combustion engine-d, great sounding, fast cars. If i'm alone on this that is fine. Until the control freaks force my hand i'll always have one eye on what to buy next and it will always be something with lots of cylinders, a shed full of bhp, loads of gears and most likely 2 turbos.
Life's too short. Live the only one we get and grow old disgracefully.
Your post was very encouraging until you mentioned being ruled by not 1 but 2 turbos distorting the true petrolheads dream of proper linear power only delivered by a charismatic na not forced induction engine.Life's too short. Live the only one we get and grow old disgracefully.
blueg33 said:
How bad is battery production for the environment? A sustainable power source is much more than just CO2. My fear is pollution caused by battery production and disposal.
Everything manufactured creates pollution. Electric cars also reduce all exhaust emissions in urban areas and greatly reduce particulates. So yes, it's a lot more important than just global CO2 when our neighborhoods are being polluted too. Not just a London issue.Battery disposal is covered by WEEE regulations throughout Europe.
Max_Torque said:
I also drive a 630 bhp, 840 kg, sequential rwd, wide arched ex UK tarmac rally car escapee.
Basically turns petrol into noise and smoke. Does 3 mpg. Terrible for our planet, but because it does about 3 miles a year, and there is literally only one of them, also irrelevant.
Holy fBasically turns petrol into noise and smoke. Does 3 mpg. Terrible for our planet, but because it does about 3 miles a year, and there is literally only one of them, also irrelevant.
k! That is awesome.Does it have a thread?
otolith said:
The more expensive models came first, the range of cheaper EVs is expanding massively and has a decade to fill every sector. The whole premise of the affordability issue is nonsense.
It really is not nonsense, and that you think it is, is quite arrogant and vulgar, sorry. I'm a professional, working, homeowner. I would struggle to afford to go out tomorrow and buy an EV. I would have to sell most if not all of the rest of my cars, or my lifestyle (inc mrs, kids etc) would take a tidy hit. It is unclear to me why the government banned the sale of ICE cars. Why not just state the emission requirements at 2030 and leave industry to sort out whether that is met by electric vehicles or alternative fuelled ICE vehicles or both.
I get the advantages of electric vehicles and I get the disadvantages. I'm in the fortunate position of having plenty of room at home to park cars and get them charged at leisure but I'm not yet convinced by EVs as I remain sceptical that the range will remain OK when you want to do a long distance drive in winter with lights, heating, entertainment etc. all on.
Betting on battery technology also concerns me due to the materials required, where they come from and how they are obtained and how they are disposed of/recycled - it's not all sweetness and light on those issues yet and certainly not as green as people are led to believe.
How long will a battery set actually last and how expensive will replacements be? How much for an electric motor that goes AWOL and I just can't see them being repaired at the local garage so it will almost certainly be repair by replacement. What will happen to second hand car prices if there is a good chance the battery pack in, say, a five year old car will need replacing in the next couple of years?
The charging for those that do not have convenient parking is, to my mind, being a bit overlooked at the moment and the provision of readily accessible on street charging has a long, long way to go.
Finally, and perhaps most worryingly for us all, I just do not see how the government is going to fill the Treasury coffers when the tax on fuel starts to dry up - the replacement is coming but the government hasn't told us how or when.
This just leads me to believe that for the well off the issues may be just a bit of inconvenience and readjustment but it is the poorer in society who may well suffer the most.
For me, I'm with the OP. EVs leave me cold. I'm an old school petrol head and the sound and involvement (that old skill of using a clutch and changing gear etc.) are some of the basics of driving enjoyment so I will not be giving up my V8s lightly. For those who are not of this ilk and just want to get from A to B than crack on, I have no real problem with it. Each to his own and all that.
I get the advantages of electric vehicles and I get the disadvantages. I'm in the fortunate position of having plenty of room at home to park cars and get them charged at leisure but I'm not yet convinced by EVs as I remain sceptical that the range will remain OK when you want to do a long distance drive in winter with lights, heating, entertainment etc. all on.
Betting on battery technology also concerns me due to the materials required, where they come from and how they are obtained and how they are disposed of/recycled - it's not all sweetness and light on those issues yet and certainly not as green as people are led to believe.
How long will a battery set actually last and how expensive will replacements be? How much for an electric motor that goes AWOL and I just can't see them being repaired at the local garage so it will almost certainly be repair by replacement. What will happen to second hand car prices if there is a good chance the battery pack in, say, a five year old car will need replacing in the next couple of years?
The charging for those that do not have convenient parking is, to my mind, being a bit overlooked at the moment and the provision of readily accessible on street charging has a long, long way to go.
Finally, and perhaps most worryingly for us all, I just do not see how the government is going to fill the Treasury coffers when the tax on fuel starts to dry up - the replacement is coming but the government hasn't told us how or when.
This just leads me to believe that for the well off the issues may be just a bit of inconvenience and readjustment but it is the poorer in society who may well suffer the most.
For me, I'm with the OP. EVs leave me cold. I'm an old school petrol head and the sound and involvement (that old skill of using a clutch and changing gear etc.) are some of the basics of driving enjoyment so I will not be giving up my V8s lightly. For those who are not of this ilk and just want to get from A to B than crack on, I have no real problem with it. Each to his own and all that.
Great, another thread overtaken with EVangelists. Always the same, anyone who doesn’t think an i3 is the answer to driving and dares to suggest the latest EV push is a short sighted dead end gets the usual sarcasm and sneering. Pathetic.
In our group we have many flavours of cars. There even a Taycan, but it’s not the one people point at
In our group we have many flavours of cars. There even a Taycan, but it’s not the one people point at
Evanivitch said:
blueg33 said:
How bad is battery production for the environment? A sustainable power source is much more than just CO2. My fear is pollution caused by battery production and disposal.
Everything manufactured creates pollution. Electric cars also reduce all exhaust emissions in urban areas and greatly reduce particulates. So yes, it's a lot more important than just global CO2 when our neighborhoods are being polluted too. Not just a London issue.Battery disposal is covered by WEEE regulations throughout Europe.
Of course everything causes pollution, the issue is the extent of the pollution, how easily it can be managed/reversed, the scale and longevity of the impact etc
I am not sure whether the move to electric cars has considered the "whole" impact and looked at what is acceptable and what isn't. Obviously global warming is an issue and fossil fuels in cars may be contributing, but 50 years ago no one thought of that. What hasn't been thought about with elec cars?
I really don't think that car buyers or the government know and understand the trade offs of one vs the other.
OpulentBob said:
otolith said:
The more expensive models came first, the range of cheaper EVs is expanding massively and has a decade to fill every sector. The whole premise of the affordability issue is nonsense.
It really is not nonsense, and that you think it is, is quite arrogant and vulgar, sorry. I'm a professional, working, homeowner. I would struggle to afford to go out tomorrow and buy an EV. I would have to sell most if not all of the rest of my cars, or my lifestyle (inc mrs, kids etc) would take a tidy hit. And if you can't afford a new car, how does that make new EVs being available to those who can afford them be of any detriment to you?
And you can buy a reasonable s/h EV for about £5k to £6k, yes, that's more than the equivalent ICE, but the running costs are lower, so ime the EV is significantly cheaper overall, and also holds its value better, and even as scrap has more value (The battery in a £3k bottom book nissian leaf is worth around £2.5k alone because even when old and worn it is still a valuable commodity!)
And lets not forget:
NO ONE IS CURRENTLY FORCING YOU INTO BUYING AN EV
If you don't like or want one, then for christs sake, don't buy one!!!
The affordability question often seems to miss the fact that EVs are cheaper to run only because they are not taxed on their fuel bar 5% VAT. Once the majority of cars are EVs the govt will find ways of charging owners.
Anyway, the prices of raw materials may mean EVs are always more expensive than ICEs.
"A global rush to go electric could make cars too expensive for the middle classes, said Carlos Tavares, chief executive of the world’s fifth-biggest car maker – and it may even fail to significantly reduce carbon emissions because the vehicles are so much heavier than petrol ones."
"Mr Taveres - whose firm also owns Fiat and Chrysler - urged politicians and environmental campaigners to consider the total lifecycle impact of the decision to go electric, which also takes in the impact of mining exotic metals for batteries, rather than focusing solely on how much less carbon they produce when running.
Ivan Glasenberg, chief executive of mining giant Glencore, told the conference that he did not think car makers had “locked in” supplies of new materials required for electric cars.
Mr Tavares said this could mean “strong inflation on the cost of raw materials”, further driving up sale prices. "
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/05/12/el...
Anyway, the prices of raw materials may mean EVs are always more expensive than ICEs.
"A global rush to go electric could make cars too expensive for the middle classes, said Carlos Tavares, chief executive of the world’s fifth-biggest car maker – and it may even fail to significantly reduce carbon emissions because the vehicles are so much heavier than petrol ones."
"Mr Taveres - whose firm also owns Fiat and Chrysler - urged politicians and environmental campaigners to consider the total lifecycle impact of the decision to go electric, which also takes in the impact of mining exotic metals for batteries, rather than focusing solely on how much less carbon they produce when running.
Ivan Glasenberg, chief executive of mining giant Glencore, told the conference that he did not think car makers had “locked in” supplies of new materials required for electric cars.
Mr Tavares said this could mean “strong inflation on the cost of raw materials”, further driving up sale prices. "
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/05/12/el...
ddom said:
Great, another thread overtaken with EVangelists. Always the same, anyone who doesn’t think an i3 is the answer driving and dates to suggest the latest EV push is a short sighted dead end gets the usual sarcasm and sneering. Pathetic.
In our group we have many flavours of cars. There even a Taycan, but it’s not the one people point at
go on, get your oar in son. Given that you literally stalk every thread i post on and spout utter nonsense, go on, keep at it.In our group we have many flavours of cars. There even a Taycan, but it’s not the one people point at
BroadsRS6 said:
PH for me will always stand for combustion engine-d, great sounding, fast cars. If i'm alone on this that is fine. Until the control freaks force my hand i'll always have one eye on what to buy next and it will always be something with lots of cylinders, a shed full of bhp, loads of gears and most likely 2 turbos.
Life's too short. Live the only one we get and grow old disgracefully.
I'm a late member of PH, having joined the forum about 2 years ago (previously been a member of other car owner's forums). But understood PH was formed by TVR owners who were genuine driving enthusiasts of rather pure driving cars. High powered, high torque NA engines with manual gearboxes, rear wheel drive and cars which generally had minimal driver aids. The type of cars that offer a real connection with driving.Life's too short. Live the only one we get and grow old disgracefully.
It was no wonder why this forum then took off in popularity because that is what many driving enthusiasts wanted in their life. It became a forum for mostly performance orientated cars which of course included turbo'd engines and of engines of all sizes.
It is a shame to see however that there are a 'vocal' few who may have joined over the recent years who seemingly would like nothing more than the end of the internal combustion engine, either because they've joined the forum for a platform to heckle at car owners or that they've been suckered in to the hype over an immanent end to the planet due to a minute amount more CO2 in the atmosphere, or what ever, whether its from a point of jealousy or from fear I know that there will be immense opposition to them and of governments if it transpires that people's freedom of choice is to be removed, and people are forced in to the boredom of not only milk floats but also fully autonomous milk floats where people will no longer own cars, they'll just call up an invalidity carriage from their app, crawl in, go to sleep and then hope they never wake up to be seen getting out of such a hideous thing.
OpulentBob said:
It really is not nonsense, and that you think it is, is quite arrogant and vulgar, sorry. I'm a professional, working, homeowner. I would struggle to afford to go out tomorrow and buy an EV. I would have to sell most if not all of the rest of my cars, or my lifestyle (inc mrs, kids etc) would take a tidy hit.
The average price paid for a new car in the UK is north of £33k. The two best selling cars in the UK, the Golf and Corsa, start at around £23k and £17k respectively. New cars, whatever they're powered by, are expensive and out of reach to many - hence they buy used.
Go back 10 years (the age of a lot of cheap used cars) and there were almost none on the roads. Even back 4 years and there were only 50k sales a year. There's not a lot of supply but a lot of demand as people have caught on to cheaper motoring.
It'll take a while to shake out. They're edging into the mainstream, starting to sell in volume, and then they have to get older and more affordable. Keep buying cheap used ICE cars in the meantime if you want to, and keep doing so beyond 2030 if that's what you want.
OpulentBob said:
otolith said:
The more expensive models came first, the range of cheaper EVs is expanding massively and has a decade to fill every sector. The whole premise of the affordability issue is nonsense.
It really is not nonsense, and that you think it is, is quite arrogant and vulgar, sorry. I'm a professional, working, homeowner. I would struggle to afford to go out tomorrow and buy an EV. I would have to sell most if not all of the rest of my cars, or my lifestyle (inc mrs, kids etc) would take a tidy hit. 
Just read that back to yourself, will you.
You've got a 911, an E class, a Hilux, a Hiace, and a Ceed. And your index of affordability is being able to go out and add an EV to that fleet without it hurting?
The 911, the E class and the Hilux each had a new sticker price which would buy a very nice EV. You aren't comparing used prices to new prices are you?
blueg33 said:
Not sure that answered my question, lots of things are covered by regulation, but that doesn't negate environmental impact.
Of course everything causes pollution, the issue is the extent of the pollution, how easily it can be managed/reversed, the scale and longevity of the impact etc
I am not sure whether the move to electric cars has considered the "whole" impact and looked at what is acceptable and what isn't. Obviously global warming is an issue and fossil fuels in cars may be contributing, but 50 years ago no one thought of that. What hasn't been thought about with elec cars?
I really don't think that car buyers or the government know and understand the trade offs of one vs the other.
It's literally a requirement of any engineering programme to do a full cradle to grave environmental analysis of the product. If you don't realise that then you've clearly never been involved in such developments.Of course everything causes pollution, the issue is the extent of the pollution, how easily it can be managed/reversed, the scale and longevity of the impact etc
I am not sure whether the move to electric cars has considered the "whole" impact and looked at what is acceptable and what isn't. Obviously global warming is an issue and fossil fuels in cars may be contributing, but 50 years ago no one thought of that. What hasn't been thought about with elec cars?
I really don't think that car buyers or the government know and understand the trade offs of one vs the other.
GroundZero said:
I'm a late member of PH, having joined the forum about 2 years ago (previously been a member of other car owner's forums). But understood PH was formed by TVR owners who were genuine driving enthusiasts of rather pure driving cars. High powered, high torque NA engines with manual gearboxes, rear wheel drive and cars which generally had minimal driver aids. The type of cars that offer a real connection with driving.
It was no wonder why this forum then took off in popularity because that is what many driving enthusiasts wanted in their life. It became a forum for mostly performance orientated cars which of course included turbo'd engines and of engines of all sizes.
It is a shame to see however that there are a 'vocal' few who may have joined over the recent years who seemingly would like nothing more than the end of the internal combustion engine, either because they've joined the forum for a platform to heckle at car owners or that they've been suckered in to the hype over an immanent end to the planet due to a minute amount more CO2 in the atmosphere, or what ever, whether its from a point of jealousy or from fear I know that there will be immense opposition to them and of governments if it transpires that people's freedom of choice is to be removed, and people are forced in to the boredom of not only milk floats but also fully autonomous milk floats where people will no longer own cars, they'll just call up an invalidity carriage from their app, crawl in, go to sleep and then hope they never wake up to be seen getting out of such a hideous thing.
bravo, that's nearly the full house! well done It was no wonder why this forum then took off in popularity because that is what many driving enthusiasts wanted in their life. It became a forum for mostly performance orientated cars which of course included turbo'd engines and of engines of all sizes.
It is a shame to see however that there are a 'vocal' few who may have joined over the recent years who seemingly would like nothing more than the end of the internal combustion engine, either because they've joined the forum for a platform to heckle at car owners or that they've been suckered in to the hype over an immanent end to the planet due to a minute amount more CO2 in the atmosphere, or what ever, whether its from a point of jealousy or from fear I know that there will be immense opposition to them and of governments if it transpires that people's freedom of choice is to be removed, and people are forced in to the boredom of not only milk floats but also fully autonomous milk floats where people will no longer own cars, they'll just call up an invalidity carriage from their app, crawl in, go to sleep and then hope they never wake up to be seen getting out of such a hideous thing.
Max_Torque said:
go on, get your oar in son. Given that you literally stalk every thread i post on and spout utter nonsense, go on, keep at it.
Unbelievably this is a topic about EV, not you, so if you could put that giant ego of yours back in it’s box and get over yourself perhaps at least one EV thread would not be about you. For once? The i3 is a deeply flawed driving experience. Sorry you don’t like that opinion but amazingly others have different priorities to you.
otolith said:
Just read that back to yourself, will you.
You've got a 911, an E class, a Hilux, a Hiace, and a Ceed. And your index of affordability is being able to go out and add an EV to that fleet without it hurting?
The 911, the E class and the Hilux each had a new sticker price which would buy a very nice EV. You aren't comparing used prices to new prices are you?
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