EV Newbie - Charger and Car advice Request

[Rawhide]

Hi All, I know very little about EVs but I'm learning quite fast. I'm building an annex to my house for air b&b type let. As a condition of planning permission the council have forced me to install a EV charging point.

I'm very fortunate to have a large drive which is quite near to our houses main consumer unit which is also three phase power

My wife does relatively low mileage but is working quite regularly now at local COVID vaccination sites. She has always been the 'car killer' and has been running diesel estates which suit our rural lifestyle quite well. I've bought them to run into the ground and they generally are sold as 99p auctions on ebay. She really does pick up a lot of scrapes here and there, and generally keeps the inside as a cess pit. Large dog on the back seat rather than boot etc.

I'm thinking of changing the fleet to be a GR Yaris for me in early 2022, in the interim a Honda CR-Z. For her she is running my mint E320 CDI which I've given her as her scruffy E320 died with turbo failure. The car is really mint and worth approx 6k on a good day.

I'm thinking of selling the Mercedes and getting into a used EV. I'm thinking Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe but open to suggestions. I will also buy a cheap scrappy diesel estate for tip runs, long trips etc. Key is it will be 'undesirable' to encourage more EV car usage and reduce my maintenance headache. We do have a large dog and two kids so would need a estate car or something which is dog friendly. This is where I'm drawing blanks.

I am a petrolhead who is happy to maintain older cars and generally dislike newer cars in general. My wife is the opposite and wants a newer car which is reliable and fun to drive, decent stereo would also help.

With regards to the charger I'm wanting to take advantage of three phase power I already have at my house. I'm seeing the Anderson A2. However I'd like the option to allow guests to charge their car(s) quickly but also generate a bill based on energy consumption. I see the Anderson A2 has an ethernet cable to I'd assume this would be feature which could be used but would welcome suggestions.

Sorry I know there is not a clear ask in this thread but I'd welcome suggestions on the charger given my requirements and a car which could ideally use 22kwh charging. Are older cars 'backward compatible' with newer high voltage chargers?

Edited by Rawhide on Monday 9th August 11:31

[Gnevans]

You will need a three phase supply for a 22kw charger. This is not standard or cheap.

[Rawhide]

Gnevans said:

You will need a three phase supply for a 22kw charger. This is not standard or cheap.

I have three phase power

[dmsims]

Gnevans said:

You will need a three phase supply for a 22kw charger. This is not standard or cheap.

Specsavers

[Mr E]

Do you have a need to rapidly charge a car, or would 10 hours overnight at 7kw be sufficient.

[Lily the Pink]

Similar situation to me - even down to having an AirBnB and being a bit of a petrolhead (with a couple of classics for getting a fix of proper motoring)! I hadn't thought an EV would be right for me yet, but I am thinking of downsizing my Velar to a smaller estate and came across the MG5, which seems cheap for what it is, though I really went off MG when the Chinese bought the badge. I haven't yet seen one in the metal and of course reviews are mixed. Might be worth looking at.

As for charging, I don't have the luxury of 3-phase, but do have plenty of yard/drive/barn space though I don't know whether the wiring would be up to the job. Incidentally, you refer to billing your guests for electricity, which I think is illegal.

[dmsims]

You will have to be careful about the choice of car

e.g. The Leaf is limited to 6.6Kw whereas the Zoe can do 22Kw on AC (even without the Qickcharge option)

[Mr E]

dmsims said:

e.g. The Leaf is limited to 6.6Kw

A lot of gen1 Leafs are 3k3

[Rawhide]

Many thanks for the replies

Lily the Pink said:

Incidentally, you refer to billing your guests for electricity, which I think is illegal.

Thanks for that tip. I'd be grateful if you have more info on that. I guess a charge is circa £6-8 which I could incorporate into the overall rental cost but keen to understand more on that.

Mr E said:

Do you have a need to rapidly charge a car, or would 10 hours overnight at 7kw be sufficient.

Right now I have no requirement for any charging. I expect 7kw would suffice for a single car but if I have three phase and potential requirement for multiple cars to charge would it not be prudent to future proof and overspec the charging station?

dmsims said:

You will have to be careful about the choice of car

e.g. The Leaf is limited to 6.6Kw whereas the Zoe can do 22Kw on AC (even without the Qickcharge option)

This is where my knowledge is very weak. My budget and research suggests an early Leaf would work well for us. Can they not make use of 22kw chargers? I'd hope a 22kwh charger could also charge at a lower rate also?

[sjg]

22kW charging is limited to Zoes and a few niche things like the Smart EVs and early Telsas or current Taycans that have an optional upgrade.

11kW charging is becoming more common (16A per phase) but not a big advantage really.

Vast majority of cars do 7kW AC (32A on a single phase) and that will put about 25-30 miles of range into a car per hour. They can still use higher power AC posts but it'll still be 7kW delivered.

With 3-phase and multiple cars you'd be better off with up to three 7kW points, each on their own phase, rather than a single 22kW. Plug each in and let them charge up overnight rather than needing to swap around.

[Frimley111R]

You can fit a 22kW charger but your guests probably won’t need it. It may be better to have more 7kW chargers than one 22kW (1 x 22kW = 3 x 7kW). Most guests will arrive late in the day and so can charge up overnight easily and 7kW will do this. There’s little gain in ‘superfast’ charging for most people

You can charge for charging. Most chargers have software that allows your customers to download an App and pay through the App but for a small location you are better off just charging them £10 (or whatever you choose). At least initially.

Almost every car can charge at 7kW but quite a few can’t charge above this, although it is changing as tech develops.

Andersen is a good but pricey charger.

Edited by Frimley111R on Monday 9th August 11:03

[LordGrover]

I think many of the EVSE chargers are either 3-phase capable, or they have a 3-phase version available.
Zappi is definitely one, but they seem to be suffering a few issues meeting demand at the moment. Hypervolt doesn't have one yet, but it's in the pipeline.

The Andersen A2 is a good looking device, though it's at the upper end of the price scale, and it's quite big - this allows cable stowage which is a plus.

If you already have 3-phase it makes sense to me to take advantage - the faster the better, though it may not be needed, it's nice to have.

[gmaz]

With a fast 3-phase charger you may be able to rent that out even if no one is staying at the air-bnb with something like https://co-charger.com/

You probably want a charger enabled with an RFID card, or a PIN so you can add that as an option on your let, and £ charge it separately when you give the card/PIN to the renter. An untethered charger will allow the renter to use their own charging cable, a tethered one would limit the users to a type-2 connector.

Most current cars are not able to take advantage of 22kW charging. My 2021 Kona will max out at 10.5kW because of the on-board charging limitations.

Edited by gmaz on Monday 9th August 12:21

[ZesPak]

Frimley111R said:

You can fit a 22kW charger but your guests probably won’t need it. It may be better to have more 7kW chargers than one 22kW (1 x 22kW = 3 x 7kW). Most guests will arrive late in the day and so can charge up overnight easily and 7kW will do this. There’s little gain in ‘superfast’ charging for most people

This.
It would make more sense to have 2x 11kW than have a 22kW charger as:

1. almost no-one can take full use of 22kW
2. most cars will be plugged in for over 10h overnight, a 7kW charger would be able to deliver 70kW in that timespan, fully charging just about anything

As for the chargers, as above, Andersen is a very smart looking one. Thetered "stupid chargers" it's very hard to beat the Tesla chargers.
You could restrict access by just having a power switch somewhere, but I've also seen people having a (free) charger with a badge you need to get from the host.

If you don't, depending on your location, you might have people there that aren't your guests.

Edit: FWIW, looking at overnight stays and given the choice, I exclusively pick places that have a charger present. For me personally, it's definitely an added value. So when listing your accommodatie on a website, make sure to make note of it. I know for example booking.com has a checkmark for it.

Edited by ZesPak on Monday 9th August 11:35

[Daaaveee]

I would stick a 22kW Andersen A2 in. Great unit, smart looking and neatly stored tethered cable. The 22kW version is no more expensive, may as well go for it as you're on three phase.

[dmsims]

Daaaveee said:

I would stick a 22kW Andersen A2 in. Great unit, smart looking and neatly stored tethered cable. The 22kW version is no more expensive, may as well go for it as you're on three phase.

Whereas I wouldn't

Very few can use 22kW AC

If the Airbnb one is in use - what will the OP use ?

[essayer]

I would fit 2x7kW chargers - one for yourself one for the B&B.

I wouldn’t bother with 22kW as very few cars support it and it’s not really necessary ‘overnight’

I would avoid 11kW as most cars will only charge at 3.6kW on it.

[dmsims]

essayer said:

I would avoid 11kW as most cars will only charge at 3.6kW on it.

Tesla M3 and ID3 do 11kW

[Rawhide]

Thanks for the updates. I also spoke to Ross (Frimley111R) also who gave some great advice but is too far from me to do business.

I've attached a pic of the drive. I'd locate the charger(s) on the wall where the blue dots are. The 3 phase power unit is behind the red dot. I'd likely bury a pipe which would allow cabling to run across the driveway to allow for either a single or two units.

I actually like the idea of more than one charger to be somewhat community spirited but also recognising that this would enable our car and a guest car to charge at the same time. That said I really don't expect that much demand as we're in a rural location so most people who have EVs would already have their own charge point.

Edited by Rawhide on Monday 9th August 12:51

[Daaaveee]

essayer said:

I would avoid 11kW as most cars will only charge at 3.6kW on it.

Depends on the cable, but yes if untethered, a lot of people do only have single phase cables so would be down to to 3.6kw on a 11kW point, so I would also avoid that.

My argument for 22kW would be that there are many cars that can benefit from more than 7.2kW, maybe not the full 22 but more than 7.2. The list will only get longer, specially with larger batteries in the future. It can also help if OP wants charge during cheaper electric rate periods like Octopus' 4 hour 5p/kWh overnight for example. Again, I'd choose the Andersen A2 as its the best looking tethered option, and with this 22kW is no extra.