8% battery degredation after 16k miles!!

[gangzoom]

Tesla has had very well documented problems with their older 85kWh packs in regards to fires and than charge gate. But till now no one else have really had the chance to see how other EV packs last in real life conditions including alot of DC rapid charging.

Sadly it appears if you DC rapid charge an ID3 all the time, within in 20k and 1 year you are looking at nearly 10% battery degredation!!!

The ID3 doesn't even charge that aggressively versus the eTron or even Ionqi 5/EV6. I hate to think what kind of degredation those cars will have if you exposed them to constantly DC rapid charging.

Even more importantly it took Tesla about 6 years to realise there was a major issue with 85kWh packs. Just what are these batteries in the ID3 going to look like in 6 years if there is 8% degredation at year 1!!!

Governments made a massive bobo pushing people to diesels, if EV battery packs all turn out to become essentially perishable items after 5-6 years we are looking at another disaster in the making .

https://insideevs.com/news/548404/volkswagen-confi...

[Smiljan]

Again? Are they being paid to promote this guys channel?

https://insideevs.com/news/533923/volkswagen-id3-b...

I thought it was common knowledge that letting a battery run almost empty then rapid charging to full over and over again was bad for the batteries.

Not having a go at you Gangzoom but these sites are so desperate for clicks they've resorted to "reporting" on opinions on youtube and digging up old stories that did well for their ads and regurgitating them.

In other news - manufacturers add buffers to batteries to hide degradation

Edited by Smiljan on Wednesday 17th November 05:53

[off_again]

Funny how the YouTube algorithms work…. That video popped up today and I watched it earlier.

Did you actually watch the video? Did you get to the bottom of the article? The owner in question isn’t disappointed with the degradation and explains the reasoning and expectations. He is correct with the estimation of initial degradation but fully expects to have that rate drop off significantly over the following years.

So, to be expected, owner calculates the number fairly accurately and admits his usage will have impacted it also. He is also going to be tracking it over the up coming years and will continue to post progress. So I guess we will find out if that continues and if it gets worse. And the small detail that is missed, this owner is getting a bigger range than VW quotes - even after degradation.

[RobDickinson]

8% degradation of spelling in the thread title thats for sure.

[thebraketester]

RobDickinson said:

8% degradation of spelling in the thread title thats for sure.

Awkward....

[Heres Johnny]

Anecdotes are not data.

Lots of Model 3 owners report highish levels of degradation and it’s typically just BMS drift made worse by rapid charging and a few simple steps see the BMS reporting it correctly again.

Funny how a YouTube video after views is picked up by a website after clicks and before you know it is seen as fact on forums.

[georgeyboy12345]

Sensationalist nonsense aside, it does raise an interesting point when all these EVs end up on the used market in a few years. Will terms like “home charged” or “never rapid charged” become key selling points?

[SWoll]

georgeyboy12345 said:

Sensationalist nonsense aside, it does raise an interesting point when all these EVs end up on the used market in a few years. Will terms like “home charged” or “never rapid charged” become key selling points?

Normally quite easy to get a battery health check done so would expect that to become par for the course. Charge %'s will play just as big a role in battery health even at slower rates. If you're regularly running the car to <10% and charging to 100% even with a 7kW charger it's going to be putting additional strain against someone charging 20% to 80% more often and covering more miles.

[rxe]

Isn’t the commonly held metric something along the lines of “if you charge a battery at a rate greater than C, you are going to damage it in the long run. This was always the trade off with Li ions in remote control ‘planes and cars - you could go again in 20 minutes if you clattered the battery at 5C, but you knew the battery would be fried quite quickly.

Regularly charging a 100 kw/h pack at 450 kW is going to shorten its life. Charging to 80% at some fraction of C is going to lead to a longer life.

[Heres Johnny]

It's no accident that batteries typically have an 8 year warranty and the people buying/owning 8 year old+ cars have other issues.

The sooner range isn't even spoken about like we rarely talk about the size of a petrol tank, the better. For that to happen I suspect we'll need more umbiquitous rapid chargers with contactless payment and cars with something like a 300 mile nominal working (not WLTP) range. While few "need" 300 miles on a regular basis, you need to exceed peoples needs and expectations comfortably for them not to mention them.

[GT9]

Li-ion degradation curves are not linear, they typically exhibit the highest rate of degradation at the beginning.

It's also very likely that a fleet of batteries will exhibit a scatter, singling one out without understanding where it sits in the scatter is a bit dim.

[survivalist]

thebraketester said:

RobDickinson said:

8% degradation of spelling in the thread title thats for sure.

Awkward....

That said, ‘thebraketester’ only mentioned spelling, not poor punctuation.

[manracer]

GT9 said:

Li-ion degradation curves are not linear, they typically exhibit the highest rate of degradation at the beginning.

It's also very likely that a fleet of batteries will exhibit a scatter, singling one out without understanding where it sits in the scatter is a bit dim.

Beat me to it!

I know it levels off after an initial drop off

https://insideevs.com/news/525820/tesla-battery-ca...

[crofty1984]

Hopefully in 10 years I can buy a cheap (sub £3k) electric car that still has 200 miles of useful range left, having started out in 2021 with 300 useful miles.

[SWoll]

crofty1984 said:

Hopefully in 10 years I can buy a cheap (sub £3k) electric car that still has 200 miles of useful range left, having started out in 2021 with 300 useful miles.

Highly unlikely. Very few EV's in 2021 will do a real world 300 miles, and those that can aren't going to be £3k in 10 years time. You'll be lucky to pick up a decent 10 year old Ford Fiesta for £3k today, a car which would have cost £15k or so when new.

[MrGTI6]

My old Vectra claimed to do 28.5mpg combined when it was new in 2001. Still on its original engine 20 years later, it averages 33.9mpg. Obviously a lot of that comes down to driving style and the kind of journeys it does, but the point is that it's no less efficient than it was when new, or at least any difference is negligible. This is despite two decades of use.

I guess buying a used electric car in another 20 years' time will result in ending up with something incapable of achieving the figures it could when new. Will the value of older electric cars therefore be primarily determined by remaining range capability as opposed to mileage, condition, etc.?

[gangzoom]

MrGTI6 said:

My Vectra claimed to do 28.5mpg combined when it was new in 2001. Still on its original engine 20 years later, it averages 33.9mpg. L

The fact EV drivers seem to happily accept its OK for a car barely 12 months old with not that miles on the clock to loss 8% of battery capacity shows how mad things are.

We have a 2009 Mazda that works as well as today as it did in 2009, have had nothing on it replace but tyres and brake pads. I can pretty much bet everything I own our 2017 Tesla will last so well come 2030, infact I suspect the Mazda will still be going and Tesla might be off to the scrap heap unless I pay £20kish for a new battery.

Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 17th November 23:33

[gangzoom]

manracer said:

Beat me to it!

I know it levels off after an initial drop off

https://insideevs.com/news/525820/tesla-battery-ca...

Everyone seem to forget that Tesla have essentially handicapped every single 85kWh pack car in order to avoid having to replace them all under warranty.

The longevity of EVs is far from proven. In the surreal world on PH everyone buys a new car every week so who cares how long things work for. But look on the road and your see plenty of people are driving around in 10 year old+ cars.

EVs are looking like they simply don't has the lasting the potential of combustion cars. Add in the need for off road parking or you are faced with having to waste time with public rapid charging. EVs are going to cause a big step backwards for social mobility, that cannot be seen as progress by anyone.

Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 17th November 23:33

[anonymous-user]

MrGTI6 said:

My old Vectra claimed to do 28.5mpg combined when it was new in 2001. Still on its original engine 20 years later, it averages 33.9mpg. Obviously a lot of that comes down to driving style and the kind of journeys it does, but the point is that it's no less efficient than it was when new, or at least any difference is negligible. This is despite two decades of use.

I guess buying a used electric car in another 20 years' time will result in ending up with something incapable of achieving the figures it could when new. Will the value of older electric cars therefore be primarily determined by remaining range capability as opposed to mileage, condition, etc.?

I'd suggest understanding the difference between efficiency and consumption before getting too ranty!


You old ICE has in fact reduced both in efficiency and increased in consumption as it wears. Effects like piston ring wear, worn fuel injection components and worn valve gear, and increased parastic losses due to worn oil and water pumps all absolutely have an effect as the engine (and transmission too) wears.

However, because the vehicle was so catastrophically in-efficient even when in perfect working order when new, you mostly don't notice the difference, because day to day differences in environment, driving style and traffic flow make more difference. However it is absolutely measureable when tested under controlled conditions.


With an EV, the battery looses capacity as it ages, but the powertrain does not reduce in efficiency nor increase in consumption. The range simply goes down because you can't "fill up" with as much 'lecy as you could when it was new. This is analogous to the fuel tank of an ICE getting smaller as it ages


The other thing worth noting is that because our electricity grid is greening over time, the effective tailpipe emissions and CO2 of an BEV actually do reduce as it ages. Your ICE's do not, in fact, if we took your 20 year old car and ran it over the certification cycle, you would almost certainly find at it has tailpipe emissons massively higher than when new, precisely because lots of critical engine and aftertreatment parts have worn and reduced in efficiency.

Typical fleet buy-back studies by various OE's show emissions degredations of between 50 and 1000 percent for cars up to 5 years / 60k miles old and CO2 emissions sitting at around 10 to 15% higher than when new

[CoolHands]

Don’t worry new battery tech is juuuuuusttt around the corner. No really.