EVs - have they got it all wrong?
Discussion
LukeBrown66 said:
I am hopeful that if the way forward is ONLY electric then battery changing or part battery changing is a way forward, it might be tough to do and do routinely unless a new form of battery that holds way more power for longer comes out.
Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
Wait, what new power form?Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
SpeckledJim said:
LukeBrown66 said:
I am hopeful that if the way forward is ONLY electric then battery changing or part battery changing is a way forward, it might be tough to do and do routinely unless a new form of battery that holds way more power for longer comes out.
Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
Wait, what new power form?Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
SWoll said:
SpeckledJim said:
LukeBrown66 said:
I am hopeful that if the way forward is ONLY electric then battery changing or part battery changing is a way forward, it might be tough to do and do routinely unless a new form of battery that holds way more power for longer comes out.
Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
Wait, what new power form?Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
TheDeuce said:
SWoll said:
SpeckledJim said:
LukeBrown66 said:
I am hopeful that if the way forward is ONLY electric then battery changing or part battery changing is a way forward, it might be tough to do and do routinely unless a new form of battery that holds way more power for longer comes out.
Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
Wait, what new power form?Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
I could be being unfair. Perhaps it's nuclear?
SWoll said:
TheDeuce said:
SWoll said:
SpeckledJim said:
LukeBrown66 said:
I am hopeful that if the way forward is ONLY electric then battery changing or part battery changing is a way forward, it might be tough to do and do routinely unless a new form of battery that holds way more power for longer comes out.
Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
Wait, what new power form?Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
I could be being unfair. Perhaps it's nuclear?
We need better batteries. That's the next best step from today's EV's. If people end up charging their car and powering their homes with hydrogen... That would be a better use of the technology. Or next gen clean nuclear. Or something entirely new. But whatever it might be, it doesn't make sense to carry it around in the car.
TheDeuce said:
CoolHands said:
soupdragon1 said:
I've got a private driveway but I rarely charge at home
I use a bog standard charger about 10 min walk from my house
I do it because it's free
At least once a week I'll do it, sometimes twice if required
So you block the charger for a few hours? Won’t that be wonder when we all have evs. What do you propose to do then?I use a bog standard charger about 10 min walk from my house
I do it because it's free
At least once a week I'll do it, sometimes twice if required
SWoll said:
SpeckledJim said:
LukeBrown66 said:
I am hopeful that if the way forward is ONLY electric then battery changing or part battery changing is a way forward, it might be tough to do and do routinely unless a new form of battery that holds way more power for longer comes out.
Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
Wait, what new power form?Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
buggalugs said:
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is that having swappable batteries would massively slow down innovation. Battery tech is improving all the time but if the common infrastructure and battery type was already out there who’s going to buy a car that has a better battery but isn’t compatible with it.
That's a good observation. I recently looked into posting an i3 to Germany for a replacement battery pack. The thinking was to buy an old i3 and upgrade it to the latest battery pack as they are the same size. However, what I hadn't appreciated up u til then was that they had to make changes to the car and BMS for the more efficient battery despite it being the same size. So I guess that might imply that if you were to opt for a battery swap system you'd be fixing that battery at a specific moment in time and not be able to update it without updating all cars at the same time and junking all old batteries?
CheesecakeRunner said:
But when you can charge at home, blocking a public charger for long periods just because it’s free is a dick move.
Chances are that it is empty almost all the time. The OP may in fact be it's only customer. Almost anyone buying EVs currently not only has home charging but almost never any usage need to charge away from home, outside of an extreme brand fanatical apex consumer who must have a Tesla in order to justify their existence to strangers on social media or Londoners who have worked out you can use EVs without having home charging. It does show however, how selling this form of fuel will change the landscape compared to how we've been living with fuelling en route and how different pricing mechanisms will impact on different human behaviours.
DonkeyApple said:
The reality is that it will take decades before everyone can have an EV. Some people will just have to wait longer than others what's the problem with that?
Exactly. In the meantime the more efficient ICE cars will filter down the secondhand market and the older more polluting cars will get scrapped. We buy around 2 million cars a year. That will take years just to get those who could use an EV practically right now into new cars and the corrsesponding filter to the secondhand markets.It is a long term process and all those saying it won't work for them right now aren't the target market right now. It is impossible to switch everyone over even a few years and not the goal.
DonkeyApple said:
CheesecakeRunner said:
But when you can charge at home, blocking a public charger for long periods just because it’s free is a dick move.
Chances are that it is empty almost all the time. The OP may in fact be it's only customer. Almost anyone buying EVs currently not only has home charging but almost never any usage need to charge away from home, outside of an extreme brand fanatical apex consumer who must have a Tesla in order to justify their existence to strangers on social media or Londoners who have worked out you can use EVs without having home charging. It does show however, how selling this form of fuel will change the landscape compared to how we've been living with fuelling en route and how different pricing mechanisms will impact on different human behaviours.
In reality driving an EV is like having a mini petrol pump at home that gradually tops up your tank overnight whenever needed.
Only ~6% of all charging is done at public chargers. The % of drivers that rely heavily on public chargers must be tiny. As borne out by the fact they're nearly always available!
If a bloke wants to time their charging start and finish with walking their dog... Go for it. If the existing chargers no start to become oversubscribed they'll add more. Although, despite EV sales already exceeding expectations, the fact is that existing charging infrastructure is coping just fine. Because, unlike petrol stations, EV drivers don't have to or wish to use a public charger.
TheDeuce said:
SWoll said:
TheDeuce said:
SWoll said:
SpeckledJim said:
LukeBrown66 said:
I am hopeful that if the way forward is ONLY electric then battery changing or part battery changing is a way forward, it might be tough to do and do routinely unless a new form of battery that holds way more power for longer comes out.
Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
Wait, what new power form?Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
I could be being unfair. Perhaps it's nuclear?
We need better batteries. That's the next best step from today's EV's. If people end up charging their car and powering their homes with hydrogen... That would be a better use of the technology. Or next gen clean nuclear. Or something entirely new. But whatever it might be, it doesn't make sense to carry it around in the car.
What I'm hoping is that if we do see improvements in power density rather than obsessing about absolute range we can start seeing lighter more practical and faster charging EV's as will suit far more peoples requirements than EV's that can do 500 miles on a charge?
Tony33 said:
DonkeyApple said:
The reality is that it will take decades before everyone can have an EV. Some people will just have to wait longer than others what's the problem with that?
Exactly. In the meantime the more efficient ICE cars will filter down the secondhand market and the older more polluting cars will get scrapped. We buy around 2 million cars a year. That will take years just to get those who could use an EV practically right now into new cars and the corrsesponding filter to the secondhand markets.It is a long term process and all those saying it won't work for them right now aren't the target market right now. It is impossible to switch everyone over even a few years and not the goal.
If 70% of households have the ability to charge offstreet that's about 20m households which probably equates to more than 20m of the 37m cars in the U.K.
In the last 12 years of EV sales we've got just 400k EVs on the road today. That's going to keep rising but even if we get rapidly to half of annual sales being EVs that's only 1m a year suggesting it'll be over twenty years before you reach market saturation among households with offstreet parking.
And while that market grows apace it will be triggering the growth in the destination charging network that those without home charging will need in due course to switch.
And over that 20 years we'll have a nice used EV market forming with a good range of products along with more human innovation that reduces the need for so many car journeys.
And ultimately the reason that the 2035 date hasn't been legally set in stone is simply because mobility is essential at the lower end of the income strata so if we get to 2035 and the only way key people will be able to continue doing their jobs is to extend the deadline then it'll be done.
But as you point out, at this moment in time we only need or want those who can easily switch to be doing so.
SWoll said:
TheDeuce said:
SWoll said:
TheDeuce said:
SWoll said:
SpeckledJim said:
LukeBrown66 said:
I am hopeful that if the way forward is ONLY electric then battery changing or part battery changing is a way forward, it might be tough to do and do routinely unless a new form of battery that holds way more power for longer comes out.
Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
Wait, what new power form?Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
I could be being unfair. Perhaps it's nuclear?
We need better batteries. That's the next best step from today's EV's. If people end up charging their car and powering their homes with hydrogen... That would be a better use of the technology. Or next gen clean nuclear. Or something entirely new. But whatever it might be, it doesn't make sense to carry it around in the car.
What I'm hoping is that if we do see improvements in power density rather than obsessing about absolute range we can start seeing lighter more practical and faster charging EV's as will suit far more peoples requirements than EV's that can do 500 miles on a charge?
So as and when we have cells with increased energy density, I would absolutely vote for that to equate to lighter cars with the same range as now, as opposed to a 2 tonne car that can go 600 miles on a charge but doesn't need to.
In reality I expect, as now, it to be a choice the buyer can make: long range version Vs standard.
TheRainMaker said:
You tell that to all the Tesla owners at Scotch Corner on Friday.
A fair few rightly not happy, and also really not happy about the prospect of the Tesla network opening up for everyone else.
Ouch - that's bad.A fair few rightly not happy, and also really not happy about the prospect of the Tesla network opening up for everyone else.
Hopefully, with all the connected chargers, priivate co's and governements can identify which places are over subscribed and by how much.
CheesecakeRunner said:
But when you can charge at home, blocking a public charger for long periods just because it’s free is a dick move.
Totally depends - if you're a local and know how busy, or not busy, the charger is then it's probably fine. Virtually every slow charger I've seen comes as a pair, and each fast charger has one connection. Most folks out charging on the go want/need the fast charger, so using a slow one, especially if there is a slot free is almost certainly fine.CheesecakeRunner said:
TheDeuce said:
CoolHands said:
soupdragon1 said:
I've got a private driveway but I rarely charge at home
I use a bog standard charger about 10 min walk from my house
I do it because it's free
At least once a week I'll do it, sometimes twice if required
So you block the charger for a few hours? Won’t that be wonder when we all have evs. What do you propose to do then?I use a bog standard charger about 10 min walk from my house
I do it because it's free
At least once a week I'll do it, sometimes twice if required
They only charge at about 20 miles an hour or so, which means there is no big demand. The one I plug into is what they call a destination charger. You'll see them in retail carparks for example.
Its next to a hairdresser, credit union, chip shop and a few office buildings. Everyone is away home by the time I plug in so it's not blocking the charger. I've been driving EV for a while now, so you get to know the usage habits and zap map tells you if a charger is in use. So it's very easy for people to see availability and subsequently, demand. The demand isn't high for 20mph chargers, I can assure you of that!
The particular issue in my town is the rapid chargers. High demand and not enough installations. There is a plan to improve that though via Govt initiatives.
You very quickly get to know charging etiquette, as if you are a dick, you'll see pictures of your car and comments on the zap map app which people will use to call out the dicks.
I've never been called out, as I don't be a dick with charging etiquette. It's easy to learn the etiquette though, and rapid charging etiquette is the big one. That's the ones people rely on the most.
The good thing about the slow chargers though, is that they are much cheaper to install due to the lower power output, and they can be tailored to certain users.
For example, maybe in years to come, some chargers could be locked for use by those EV owners that have no access to home charging. Ie, local residents chargers for people in flats, houses with no drive etc
DonkeyApple said:
CheesecakeRunner said:
But when you can charge at home, blocking a public charger for long periods just because it’s free is a dick move.
Chances are that it is empty almost all the time. The OP may in fact be it's only customer. I’m not making any comment on ability or not to charge at home.
I’m stating that making regular use a free service, potentially to the detriment of people who do need it, when you don’t need it, is abusive and a dick move. It’s obviously not empty all the time, because soupdragon is there, and he’s preventing others from using it who don’t have the ability to charge at home.
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