EVs - have they got it all wrong?
Discussion
LukeBrown66 said:
I have no desire to care in the slightest about or "look", what on earth makes anyone think I give a damn about such things lol!, I am fully aware of what I am saying and couldn't care less what anyone thinks, it's a forum for discussion and if you are reading this you either own one and are therefore at the moment likely to be fairly well off (or made significant and I mean significant lifestyle changes to fit one into your life) or have one for tax reasons employment wise, or are interested in the topic, meaning anything negative said about them you will either disagree with or have a point yourself it's called discussion back and forth.
I work within the industry, and have a bit of knowledge about it, so am adding some points I think are worthy of note based on what I know and where certain futures lie in my world.
We have seen varying replies, some in agreement, on other threads, but usernames prevent people from being positive, it is a thing and I am more than able to deal with it!!
Ev's are not the be all and end all, they are a temporary solution, there may well be billions of them by 2050, but that is a longer time frame then when we were all told to buy diesels, a lot can change.
For now yes they are great, but not everyone can afford them and they are not great for certain sections of the community and not at all worthwhile in vast areas of the world. If you have one, good for you, they help a tiny bit, but we all surely know the real solutions are far more drastic.
The manufacturers should produce used EVs at a much lower price. That would help uptake no end. I work within the industry, and have a bit of knowledge about it, so am adding some points I think are worthy of note based on what I know and where certain futures lie in my world.
We have seen varying replies, some in agreement, on other threads, but usernames prevent people from being positive, it is a thing and I am more than able to deal with it!!
Ev's are not the be all and end all, they are a temporary solution, there may well be billions of them by 2050, but that is a longer time frame then when we were all told to buy diesels, a lot can change.
For now yes they are great, but not everyone can afford them and they are not great for certain sections of the community and not at all worthwhile in vast areas of the world. If you have one, good for you, they help a tiny bit, but we all surely know the real solutions are far more drastic.
I suspect the thing that actually solves all the problems is called PHEV. It's not like public charging is all that cheap either so the business case for EVs on longer trips kind of falls apart along with all the hassle. I've always had a bit of a purist view on this and thought ICE or EV but I happened to find myself in a Merc E300de for a couple of days recently and that's basically EV in cities and lower speeds where they make sense and diesel on the motorway at whatever speed and distance you want, as in where diesel is unbeatable. It also drove and behaved like a normal car. With the more recent Mercedes PHEV's with larger batteries, I suspect they are actually the best way to do this whole thing and I'm not going to lie, I've started to look at the new C-class with some interest.
DMZ said:
I suspect the thing that actually solves all the problems is called PHEV. It's not like public charging is all that cheap either so the business case for EVs on longer trips kind of falls apart along with all the hassle. I've always had a bit of a purist view on this and thought ICE or EV but I happened to find myself in a Merc E300de for a couple of days recently and that's basically EV in cities and lower speeds where they make sense and diesel on the motorway at whatever speed and distance you want, as in where diesel is unbeatable. It also drove and behaved like a normal car. With the more recent Mercedes PHEV's with larger batteries, I suspect they are actually the best way to do this whole thing and I'm not going to lie, I've started to look at the new C-class with some interest.
I think PHEVs will only be a stopgap until EVs have sufficient range for most people. There will always be edge cases of course and examples where EVs won't work for some time yet. The issue with PHEVs is having both ICE and EV power units takes up significant space and adds weight. Reducing range in both power units and impact on handling (if that is a thing that bothers you) and more importantly a significant reduction in boot space. I think they are probably currently a great solution but not the long term solution.DMZ said:
I suspect the thing that actually solves all the problems is called PHEV. It's not like public charging is all that cheap either so the business case for EVs on longer trips kind of falls apart along with all the hassle. I've always had a bit of a purist view on this and thought ICE or EV but I happened to find myself in a Merc E300de for a couple of days recently and that's basically EV in cities and lower speeds where they make sense and diesel on the motorway at whatever speed and distance you want, as in where diesel is unbeatable. It also drove and behaved like a normal car. With the more recent Mercedes PHEV's with larger batteries, I suspect they are actually the best way to do this whole thing and I'm not going to lie, I've started to look at the new C-class with some interest.
I don't see this as an advantage personally. Slow acting slush box, noisy engine etc. aren't something I would actively look for in a car?The issue with PHEV is the huge complexity once they get a few years old and out of warranty, plus all that additional weight/space required reduces practicality and means they are a bit crap on fuel for long runs if you don't keep the battery topped up constantly?
markj113 said:
A current rapid charger can take something like a Taycan from 5% to 80% in 22 minutes
how long would it take to swap over a "quick release" battery weighing 1/2 tonne?
Another anxiety might be, that when one buys a brand new EV, it comes with its own brand new battery, But if you are required to swap it, with a charged, but used one, from another vehicle, it may not be of the same value, or capabilities as the one you have just swapped over. how long would it take to swap over a "quick release" battery weighing 1/2 tonne?
Since the battery represents a significant part of the cost / value of an EV, this might concern some people?
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Wednesday 24th November 12:40
I can add weight to the hybrid debate too.
A friend bought a less than year old hybrid XC90, don't know much about spec, but it started becoming unreliable, found out there was some issue with the diff it could cost thousands to fix, temp fix, chop it in to the dealer and buy a new one, this might be related to the drive system being what it is now, I dont know, I also know of at least two people who have had to do battery pack swaps on Prius's after less than 120k miles, yes that is high mileage, but the fix is very expensive if you do not wish to just scrap the car.
I am not a dealer and dont know loads of people, these are just issues I am aware of in a small circle of worm friends and friends away from work, but that probably balances out with issues of any vehicle type
A friend bought a less than year old hybrid XC90, don't know much about spec, but it started becoming unreliable, found out there was some issue with the diff it could cost thousands to fix, temp fix, chop it in to the dealer and buy a new one, this might be related to the drive system being what it is now, I dont know, I also know of at least two people who have had to do battery pack swaps on Prius's after less than 120k miles, yes that is high mileage, but the fix is very expensive if you do not wish to just scrap the car.
I am not a dealer and dont know loads of people, these are just issues I am aware of in a small circle of worm friends and friends away from work, but that probably balances out with issues of any vehicle type
And yes the real solution for making the world green is population growth or stopping breeding! But that is a separate argument.
As for motors, my point is not that they do not work or are not efficient, my point is that right now the market is stacked towards those with a bit of money.
These are cars, it is not something new like flying was in the early 20th century or sailing across the oceans was before that, or even cars in the day. They are JUST cars, yes they use new technology, but a large amount of people will need them, and right now they seem to be squarely aimed at people with more money rather than less. Yes they tend to buy news cars etc, always, but there do not seem to be many of these things that are attainable for those with less money brand new.
And in terms of wanting to reduce pollution globally, the real places to make the impact are not the UK, the places that pollute because of coal, oil, vehicles that are not only ICE but often very poorly maintained with little option of ever being able to go electric, that is billions of people.
And, if the billions in the West all get on board it will help, but the solution has to be global and quick, so at COP when China and India ask for restrictions on coal and oil to be eased to help them, this is not a global solution.
Surely if you want to make the world green, all these companies should not only be building stuff for people with a bit of money, but also trying to build stuff for those who only ride scooters, or vans, lorries. I know this is happening aswell, but does it not seem odd that the market for cars seems to be the only one progressing and into peoples lives, while the market for other stuff is not? My thinking is a quick cash grab because they know how to market to these people very successfully.
As for motors, my point is not that they do not work or are not efficient, my point is that right now the market is stacked towards those with a bit of money.
These are cars, it is not something new like flying was in the early 20th century or sailing across the oceans was before that, or even cars in the day. They are JUST cars, yes they use new technology, but a large amount of people will need them, and right now they seem to be squarely aimed at people with more money rather than less. Yes they tend to buy news cars etc, always, but there do not seem to be many of these things that are attainable for those with less money brand new.
And in terms of wanting to reduce pollution globally, the real places to make the impact are not the UK, the places that pollute because of coal, oil, vehicles that are not only ICE but often very poorly maintained with little option of ever being able to go electric, that is billions of people.
And, if the billions in the West all get on board it will help, but the solution has to be global and quick, so at COP when China and India ask for restrictions on coal and oil to be eased to help them, this is not a global solution.
Surely if you want to make the world green, all these companies should not only be building stuff for people with a bit of money, but also trying to build stuff for those who only ride scooters, or vans, lorries. I know this is happening aswell, but does it not seem odd that the market for cars seems to be the only one progressing and into peoples lives, while the market for other stuff is not? My thinking is a quick cash grab because they know how to market to these people very successfully.
battery swapping is a working, proven, reliable system
the problem is getting industry standard batteries
NIO have done 2 million swaps on customer cars and are massively expanding the number of sites over the next few years
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/03/20210327-...
it takes a couple of minutes and saves the car buyer the cost of buying the battery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJKIIBCVsk4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw
the problem is getting industry standard batteries
NIO have done 2 million swaps on customer cars and are massively expanding the number of sites over the next few years
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/03/20210327-...
it takes a couple of minutes and saves the car buyer the cost of buying the battery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJKIIBCVsk4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw
LukeBrown66 said:
And yes the real solution for making the world green is population growth or stopping breeding! But that is a separate argument.
As for motors, my point is not that they do not work or are not efficient, my point is that right now the market is stacked towards those with a bit of money.
These are cars, it is not something new like flying was in the early 20th century or sailing across the oceans was before that, or even cars in the day. They are JUST cars, yes they use new technology, but a large amount of people will need them, and right now they seem to be squarely aimed at people with more money rather than less. Yes they tend to buy news cars etc, always, but there do not seem to be many of these things that are attainable for those with less money brand new.
And in terms of wanting to reduce pollution globally, the real places to make the impact are not the UK, the places that pollute because of coal, oil, vehicles that are not only ICE but often very poorly maintained with little option of ever being able to go electric, that is billions of people.
And, if the billions in the West all get on board it will help, but the solution has to be global and quick, so at COP when China and India ask for restrictions on coal and oil to be eased to help them, this is not a global solution.
Surely if you want to make the world green, all these companies should not only be building stuff for people with a bit of money, but also trying to build stuff for those who only ride scooters, or vans, lorries. I know this is happening aswell, but does it not seem odd that the market for cars seems to be the only one progressing and into peoples lives, while the market for other stuff is not? My thinking is a quick cash grab because they know how to market to these people very successfully.
A scooter costs £2000 and does 150mpg. As for motors, my point is not that they do not work or are not efficient, my point is that right now the market is stacked towards those with a bit of money.
These are cars, it is not something new like flying was in the early 20th century or sailing across the oceans was before that, or even cars in the day. They are JUST cars, yes they use new technology, but a large amount of people will need them, and right now they seem to be squarely aimed at people with more money rather than less. Yes they tend to buy news cars etc, always, but there do not seem to be many of these things that are attainable for those with less money brand new.
And in terms of wanting to reduce pollution globally, the real places to make the impact are not the UK, the places that pollute because of coal, oil, vehicles that are not only ICE but often very poorly maintained with little option of ever being able to go electric, that is billions of people.
And, if the billions in the West all get on board it will help, but the solution has to be global and quick, so at COP when China and India ask for restrictions on coal and oil to be eased to help them, this is not a global solution.
Surely if you want to make the world green, all these companies should not only be building stuff for people with a bit of money, but also trying to build stuff for those who only ride scooters, or vans, lorries. I know this is happening aswell, but does it not seem odd that the market for cars seems to be the only one progressing and into peoples lives, while the market for other stuff is not? My thinking is a quick cash grab because they know how to market to these people very successfully.
A car costs £20000 and does 30mpg. Which would you set out to replace if it was you?
With current tech we could easily make it happen ie. batteries tend to be near the bottom otherwise fields would be full of toppled EVs. Drive onto a platform, battery is released and detached with some robotic mechanism. Charged one is lifted up and locked in place. Swapped in under 10 seconds. Drive off platform in EV bliss.
By the standards of what is done all over the world with current robotic machinery, it's a piece of piss.
Cue EV zealots foaming at the mouth why its the worst idea in the history of bad ideas.
By the standards of what is done all over the world with current robotic machinery, it's a piece of piss.
Cue EV zealots foaming at the mouth why its the worst idea in the history of bad ideas.
Martyn76 said:
Something that is happening in China already, albeit one specific brand.
https://youtu.be/hTsrDpsYHrw
I just watched this video, it is impressive engineering. The presenter was talking about how cheap and quick it is to swap the battery. At the end of the swap he said it only took three minutes, which is really quick. https://youtu.be/hTsrDpsYHrw
However he kind of glossed over that fact that, in his own words "There were no charged batteries ready, so we drove around for an hour then came back."
So really that was 1hour and 3 mins. Not quite so quick after all!
ARFBY said:
I just watched this video, it is impressive engineering. The presenter was talking about how cheap and quick it is to swap the battery. At the end of the swap he said it only took three minutes, which is really quick.
However he kind of glossed over that fact that, in his own words "There were no charged batteries ready, so we drove around for an hour then came back."
So really that was 1hour and 3 mins. Not quite so quick after all!
NIO are suffering abit of a Tesla moment, a few years ago they made a handful of cars, they have ramped up production massively and can still sell 5 times their production, their battery swap model us hugely popular. The first 10 years it did 500k swaps, the last 18 months 1.5 mill swaps, they are massively expanding the network but cant keep up with demand atm However he kind of glossed over that fact that, in his own words "There were no charged batteries ready, so we drove around for an hour then came back."
So really that was 1hour and 3 mins. Not quite so quick after all!
@luke
So you don’t like EVs because they will cramp your style.
But other should do their part by not having children or buying new cars. And car companies are evil for making a profit, but only if it’s an EV they are selling.
EVs are more expensive (or at least have been) because they are a new technology produced in low volumes. Why would this be a surprise to anyone? It’s not some sort of cash grab conspiracy. At equivalent production volumes they are expected to be cheaper to buy than their ICE equivalent and certainly cheaper to run. Surely this has to be a good thing regardless of which one you personally prefer.
And you keep ignoring the issue with LOCAL pollution. Is this because it is an inconvenient truth about ICEs?
No one is saying EVs are an angel from heaven. They offer some significant benefits, and for new car production going forward are an obvious direction for governments and manufacturers to pursue.
So you don’t like EVs because they will cramp your style.
But other should do their part by not having children or buying new cars. And car companies are evil for making a profit, but only if it’s an EV they are selling.
EVs are more expensive (or at least have been) because they are a new technology produced in low volumes. Why would this be a surprise to anyone? It’s not some sort of cash grab conspiracy. At equivalent production volumes they are expected to be cheaper to buy than their ICE equivalent and certainly cheaper to run. Surely this has to be a good thing regardless of which one you personally prefer.
And you keep ignoring the issue with LOCAL pollution. Is this because it is an inconvenient truth about ICEs?
No one is saying EVs are an angel from heaven. They offer some significant benefits, and for new car production going forward are an obvious direction for governments and manufacturers to pursue.
Catatafish said:
With current tech we could easily make it happen ie. batteries tend to be near the bottom otherwise fields would be full of toppled EVs. Drive onto a platform, battery is released and detached with some robotic mechanism. Charged one is lifted up and locked in place. Swapped in under 10 seconds. Drive off platform in EV bliss.
By the standards of what is done all over the world with current robotic machinery, it's a piece of piss.
Cue EV zealots foaming at the mouth why its the worst idea in the history of bad ideas.
Triggered much?By the standards of what is done all over the world with current robotic machinery, it's a piece of piss.
Cue EV zealots foaming at the mouth why its the worst idea in the history of bad ideas.
It wouldn’t surprise me if you are one of the ICE zealots foaming at the mouth as to why EVs weigh so much. Yet now you want to add weight for the battery swap concept.
Maybe you can shed some light on who would own and be responsible for all these standard batteries floating around?
LukeBrown66 said:
And yes the real solution for making the world green is population growth or stopping breeding! But that is a separate argument.
I like the style of the modern shopper. Genocide before doing the obvious and simply not buying all that s
t you can't stop buying every single day. 
We can't stop buying rubbish we don't need with money we don't have that's causing vast excess pollution and the solution is for the peasants of the world who don't even own a credit card, have an Amazon Prime account to be sterilised.
Maybe GroupOn could do some Black Friday deals whereby for every £100 you spend on plastic tat for your temple to consumption they'll cut the balls off some bloke in a mud hut?
They could call it ze UberGroupOnFrenzy?
Population isn't the problem. The problem is the billion who can't stop shopping like a zombie princess army.
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