EVs - have they got it all wrong?
Discussion
Quite.
Taking a current mid price EV as an example (Kia EV6) here's the charge curve on one of those gridserve chargers shown above.
If we pessimistically assume a 250 mile range at 100% then to add 150 miles will need a 60% charge . Should take 15-20 minutes assuming a start % of 5-10% as a buffer?
Now I know the EV6 has probably the best charge curve around but given that EV's won't be something everyone has to drive for another 20 years I'd say it's fair to assume technology across the board will have improved by that point if that is what is achievable today with a mid range car?
Taking a current mid price EV as an example (Kia EV6) here's the charge curve on one of those gridserve chargers shown above.
If we pessimistically assume a 250 mile range at 100% then to add 150 miles will need a 60% charge . Should take 15-20 minutes assuming a start % of 5-10% as a buffer?
Now I know the EV6 has probably the best charge curve around but given that EV's won't be something everyone has to drive for another 20 years I'd say it's fair to assume technology across the board will have improved by that point if that is what is achievable today with a mid range car?
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is that having swappable batteries would massively slow down innovation. Battery tech is improving all the time but if the common infrastructure and battery type was already out there who’s going to buy a car that has a better battery but isn’t compatible with it.
LukeBrown66 said:
As has been said numerous times on here, not all of us live in homes we can even have a charger.
if you live in an apartment block, who buys it, you the tenant, the landlord who owns the property but not say the car parks or land or the owner and administrator of the property who actually own the land the apartment is built on that someone pays ground rent on? Or if you live in a terraced street, where it is possible you might park in numerous places, who installs the charger then? You, the council who own the land it is on, or the government?
A lot of presumption going on about this, and a heck of a lot of people will NEVER own their own property even if they could, they might not want to.
All of these issues are resolvable obviously but not as easily as simply getting one fitted at YOUR house.
There isn't really any presumption going on other than the presumption that somehow not owning a driveway means it's not possible to ever have an EV. Which is clearly wrong as Londoners without home or street charging are already buying EVs and showing the whole of the U.K. what is possible when one engages brain. if you live in an apartment block, who buys it, you the tenant, the landlord who owns the property but not say the car parks or land or the owner and administrator of the property who actually own the land the apartment is built on that someone pays ground rent on? Or if you live in a terraced street, where it is possible you might park in numerous places, who installs the charger then? You, the council who own the land it is on, or the government?
A lot of presumption going on about this, and a heck of a lot of people will NEVER own their own property even if they could, they might not want to.
All of these issues are resolvable obviously but not as easily as simply getting one fitted at YOUR house.
We have this figure that around 30% of households do not have private parking. However, within that 30% are the bulk of households that do not own a car so in reality the number of people who cannot home charge is quite a bit smaller than is oft made out on PH.
Pursuant to that is the fact that the solution already exists and is being used by people. If you cannot refuel at A then you refuel at B, the destination.
People seem to be panicking because destination charging isn't rampant in 2021 but again, one must think logically. Why would it be? There's no big demand as the vast bulk of switchers to EVs today and for the next decade will be the majority who have home charging. As their number grows from the current tiny number it is now to several million then the destination network for the remainers will expand, thus allowing more people who do not have offstreet parking to switch if they wish.
The real problem being caused by EVs is that a bit like Covid, it's showing up the section of society that struggles to work simple s
t out and will have to wait to be shown how this all works by others. Utter nonsense
I am not saying it is impossible or even that I dont want to do it, YOU are saying that.
What I am saying is that right now there are numerous barriers facing people who do not own their own homes with driveways and easy access to charging stations and those barriers are not very simple to fix as there are more than a few parties concerned to fix the issue easily. and it will be about who pays for it as it always is with these things when it comes down the line. Right now, people with a bit more wealth can afford to install their own meters, buy the cars, make lifestyle changes to accommodate that, as this comes down the line it might be a lot harder to make the change that is all I will say.
And right now it is for a lot of people far less convenient to buy an EV in those circumstances than continue with an ICE. My nearest mass charging point is about half a mile away, easy to use yes, always free who knows, what happens if I can't get a spot, I can't then get to work by bus or train, and am left stranded.
yes that is now and it will improve, but convenience for people with no driveway and easy access to charging points is a big stumbling lock and will continue to be for some time yet.
It really is that simple I am afraid. And it is nothing to do with being blind or wanting to move on, it is about money, space, home ownership vs renting, and many other things.
I am not saying it is impossible or even that I dont want to do it, YOU are saying that.
What I am saying is that right now there are numerous barriers facing people who do not own their own homes with driveways and easy access to charging stations and those barriers are not very simple to fix as there are more than a few parties concerned to fix the issue easily. and it will be about who pays for it as it always is with these things when it comes down the line. Right now, people with a bit more wealth can afford to install their own meters, buy the cars, make lifestyle changes to accommodate that, as this comes down the line it might be a lot harder to make the change that is all I will say.
And right now it is for a lot of people far less convenient to buy an EV in those circumstances than continue with an ICE. My nearest mass charging point is about half a mile away, easy to use yes, always free who knows, what happens if I can't get a spot, I can't then get to work by bus or train, and am left stranded.
yes that is now and it will improve, but convenience for people with no driveway and easy access to charging points is a big stumbling lock and will continue to be for some time yet.
It really is that simple I am afraid. And it is nothing to do with being blind or wanting to move on, it is about money, space, home ownership vs renting, and many other things.
LukeBrown66 said:
Utter nonsense
I am not saying it is impossible or even that I dont want to do it, YOU are saying that.
What I am saying is that right now there are numerous barriers facing people who do not own their own homes with driveways and easy access to charging stations and those barriers are not very simple to fix as there are more than a few parties concerned to fix the issue easily. and it will be about who pays for it as it always is with these things when it comes down the line. Right now, people with a bit more wealth can afford to install their own meters, buy the cars, make lifestyle changes to accommodate that, as this comes down the line it might be a lot harder to make the change that is all I will say.
And right now it is for a lot of people far less convenient to buy an EV in those circumstances than continue with an ICE. My nearest mass charging point is about half a mile away, easy to use yes, always free who knows, what happens if I can't get a spot, I can't then get to work by bus or train, and am left stranded.
yes that is now and it will improve, but convenience for people with no driveway and easy access to charging points is a big stumbling lock and will continue to be for some time yet.
It really is that simple I am afraid. And it is nothing to do with being blind or wanting to move on, it is about money, space, home ownership vs renting, and many other things.
It's hardly nonsense. It's pointing out that the number is smaller than many think. On top of that, it is typically the case that EVs remain too expensive for people who lack offstreet parking, as a general rule. And you don't need an EV nor is anyone forcing you to have one. I am not saying it is impossible or even that I dont want to do it, YOU are saying that.
What I am saying is that right now there are numerous barriers facing people who do not own their own homes with driveways and easy access to charging stations and those barriers are not very simple to fix as there are more than a few parties concerned to fix the issue easily. and it will be about who pays for it as it always is with these things when it comes down the line. Right now, people with a bit more wealth can afford to install their own meters, buy the cars, make lifestyle changes to accommodate that, as this comes down the line it might be a lot harder to make the change that is all I will say.
And right now it is for a lot of people far less convenient to buy an EV in those circumstances than continue with an ICE. My nearest mass charging point is about half a mile away, easy to use yes, always free who knows, what happens if I can't get a spot, I can't then get to work by bus or train, and am left stranded.
yes that is now and it will improve, but convenience for people with no driveway and easy access to charging points is a big stumbling lock and will continue to be for some time yet.
It really is that simple I am afraid. And it is nothing to do with being blind or wanting to move on, it is about money, space, home ownership vs renting, and many other things.
The switchover is slow and steady and over time the prices will fall and third party charging grow meaning that people who cannot charge at home will slowly be able to switch to EV if they wish.
The reality is that it will take decades before everyone can have an EV. Some people will just have to wait longer than others what's the problem with that?
I've got a private driveway but I rarely charge at home
I use a bog standard charger about 10 min walk from my house
I do it because it's free
Drive to charger with my dog - plug in. Walk home.
Walk dog to charger a few hrs later, drive back home
At least once a week I'll do it, sometimes twice if required
To make it work, its important to invest in a coat and an umbrella, just in case it rains. Other than that - I don't mind. Good to get some fresh air and the dog gets walked daily anyway so not a big deal really.
If there are no chargers in large urban areas, the council really need to get their finger out. I would be surprised if that's the case though. I'm in N Ireland, the worst place in UK for chargers per person, and I'm literally tripping over charging locations in my medium sized town.
I use a bog standard charger about 10 min walk from my house
I do it because it's free
Drive to charger with my dog - plug in. Walk home.
Walk dog to charger a few hrs later, drive back home
At least once a week I'll do it, sometimes twice if required
To make it work, its important to invest in a coat and an umbrella, just in case it rains. Other than that - I don't mind. Good to get some fresh air and the dog gets walked daily anyway so not a big deal really.
If there are no chargers in large urban areas, the council really need to get their finger out. I would be surprised if that's the case though. I'm in N Ireland, the worst place in UK for chargers per person, and I'm literally tripping over charging locations in my medium sized town.
TheRainMaker said:
Oilchange said:
Free charging? Is that a thing in the UK?
No, normally free chargers are for people using the facility that is paying for the electric, ie hotels and restaurants etc.And if you happen to live local to a public charger, you can join a pay monthly scheme and get unlimited charging for not very much at all.
Certainly a lot less than petrol these days...! It's just plain weird for me now watching people spend £100 filling up the 60 litre tank in their focus.
Oilchange said:
Be nice if they gave me a litre of free ethanol to top up my Alfa. I'm usually in Tesco half an hour or so...
Isn’t supermarket fuel often a loss leader or pretty close to that anyway? If so, then I guess they are kinda doing that. If it isn’t then ignore this entire post 
Dingu said:
Oilchange said:
Be nice if they gave me a litre of free ethanol to top up my Alfa. I'm usually in Tesco half an hour or so...
Isn’t supermarket fuel often a loss leader or pretty close to that anyway? If so, then I guess they are kinda doing that. If it isn’t then ignore this entire post But free fuel... At today's prices!?
It would be cheaper hand each shopper a fiver as they entered rather than 30 miles of diesel.
Oilchange said:
Ethanol isn't technically fuel though is it? I mean it's just alcohol so you could use it for other stuff and avoid fuel taxes. Plus if you give it away it doesn't attract VAT as it's free.
Plus you'd put it in a petrol car not a diesel.
Waiting to be proven massively wrong here...
I mean... At this stage I don't think it matters if you're right or wrong. Tesco isnt giving away ethanol regardless Plus you'd put it in a petrol car not a diesel.
Waiting to be proven massively wrong here...
soupdragon1 said:
I've got a private driveway but I rarely charge at home
I use a bog standard charger about 10 min walk from my house
I do it because it's free
Drive to charger with my dog - plug in. Walk home.
Walk dog to charger a few hrs later, drive back home
At least once a week I'll do it, sometimes twice if required
To make it work, its important to invest in a coat and an umbrella, just in case it rains. Other than that - I don't mind. Good to get some fresh air and the dog gets walked daily anyway so not a big deal really.
If there are no chargers in large urban areas, the council really need to get their finger out. I would be surprised if that's the case though. I'm in N Ireland, the worst place in UK for chargers per person, and I'm literally tripping over charging locations in my medium sized town.
So you block the charger for a few hours? Won’t that be wonder when we all have evs. What do you propose to do then?I use a bog standard charger about 10 min walk from my house
I do it because it's free
Drive to charger with my dog - plug in. Walk home.
Walk dog to charger a few hrs later, drive back home
At least once a week I'll do it, sometimes twice if required
To make it work, its important to invest in a coat and an umbrella, just in case it rains. Other than that - I don't mind. Good to get some fresh air and the dog gets walked daily anyway so not a big deal really.
If there are no chargers in large urban areas, the council really need to get their finger out. I would be surprised if that's the case though. I'm in N Ireland, the worst place in UK for chargers per person, and I'm literally tripping over charging locations in my medium sized town.
CoolHands said:
soupdragon1 said:
I've got a private driveway but I rarely charge at home
I use a bog standard charger about 10 min walk from my house
I do it because it's free
Drive to charger with my dog - plug in. Walk home.
Walk dog to charger a few hrs later, drive back home
At least once a week I'll do it, sometimes twice if required
To make it work, its important to invest in a coat and an umbrella, just in case it rains. Other than that - I don't mind. Good to get some fresh air and the dog gets walked daily anyway so not a big deal really.
If there are no chargers in large urban areas, the council really need to get their finger out. I would be surprised if that's the case though. I'm in N Ireland, the worst place in UK for chargers per person, and I'm literally tripping over charging locations in my medium sized town.
So you block the charger for a few hours? Won’t that be wonder when we all have evs. What do you propose to do then?I use a bog standard charger about 10 min walk from my house
I do it because it's free
Drive to charger with my dog - plug in. Walk home.
Walk dog to charger a few hrs later, drive back home
At least once a week I'll do it, sometimes twice if required
To make it work, its important to invest in a coat and an umbrella, just in case it rains. Other than that - I don't mind. Good to get some fresh air and the dog gets walked daily anyway so not a big deal really.
If there are no chargers in large urban areas, the council really need to get their finger out. I would be surprised if that's the case though. I'm in N Ireland, the worst place in UK for chargers per person, and I'm literally tripping over charging locations in my medium sized town.
If you break it down the % of people that will be totally stuck is likely pretty slim.
Congestion at charging points has been speculated for years now - yet despite EV adoption racing ahead of anticipated numbers, the infrastructure has kept up more than enough.
We've got at least 20 years of progress and improvement before anyone in any property actually has to think about moving to EV.
I am hopeful that if the way forward is ONLY electric then battery changing or part battery changing is a way forward, it might be tough to do and do routinely unless a new form of battery that holds way more power for longer comes out.
Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
Other than that I would hope a lot of people will skip electric for the reasons I have mentioned before and go straight to a new power form, meaning I would guess a few of us will perhaps not have cars for a few years maybe.
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