Charging - can someone explain it?
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
It's a contactor, not a relay.
And the 13a on cable chargers you use are similarly priced to the 7kw charging points if you ignore installation costs. They 'do' the same as the higher capacity wall chargers in terms of complexity and power management and cost about the same as result.
I'm guessing you never considered the cost as the 13a on cable chargers came with the cars..?
Nowhere near the cost, 13A can be had new for sub £250, how much do the lower end EVSE’s, Ohme, Wallbox etc, retail at? £500+? The grant just about covers installAnd the 13a on cable chargers you use are similarly priced to the 7kw charging points if you ignore installation costs. They 'do' the same as the higher capacity wall chargers in terms of complexity and power management and cost about the same as result.
I'm guessing you never considered the cost as the 13a on cable chargers came with the cars..?
My Zoe never came with a 13A anyway (although I did get a free Chargemaster 7kW)
essayer said:
TheDeuce said:
It's a contactor, not a relay.
And the 13a on cable chargers you use are similarly priced to the 7kw charging points if you ignore installation costs. They 'do' the same as the higher capacity wall chargers in terms of complexity and power management and cost about the same as result.
I'm guessing you never considered the cost as the 13a on cable chargers came with the cars..?
Nowhere near the cost, 13A can be had new for sub £250, how much do the lower end EVSE’s, Ohme, Wallbox etc, retail at? £500+? The grant just about covers installAnd the 13a on cable chargers you use are similarly priced to the 7kw charging points if you ignore installation costs. They 'do' the same as the higher capacity wall chargers in terms of complexity and power management and cost about the same as result.
I'm guessing you never considered the cost as the 13a on cable chargers came with the cars..?
My Zoe never came with a 13A anyway (although I did get a free Chargemaster 7kW)
Either way, the 13a lead that people use does itself have a significant value was my point. And by extension, to the other posters point, the wall chargers are not a rip off. Just a fair enough price for the electronics and power handling hardware within.
two ways to do it, the right way and the not so right way....
the 13A plug and lead to the car will charge it. but it wont have any of the advised protection kit around running a cable to the car, and you wont have the earth rod or earth fault detection etc.
lots of people do it with the 13A lead and have no issues....
the 13A plug and lead to the car will charge it. but it wont have any of the advised protection kit around running a cable to the car, and you wont have the earth rod or earth fault detection etc.
lots of people do it with the 13A lead and have no issues....
pghstochaj said:
For people that use a 3 pin plug, do you not have the necessary safety requirements normally required for the “chargers” (correct rcd or 6 mA dc leakage detection, appropriate earthing or Earth fault detection) or do these features sit within the “granny charger”?
The granny charger will have a box of tricks in it which takes car of monitoring but obviously can't govern what circuit you plug it in to.pghstochaj said:
For people that use a 3 pin plug, do you not have the necessary safety requirements normally required for the “chargers” (correct rcd or 6 mA dc leakage detection, appropriate earthing or Earth fault detection) or do these features sit within the “granny charger”?
Everything is in the charger brick on the cable. Any 13a socket is ok.48k said:
pghstochaj said:
For people that use a 3 pin plug, do you not have the necessary safety requirements normally required for the “chargers” (correct rcd or 6 mA dc leakage detection, appropriate earthing or Earth fault detection) or do these features sit within the “granny charger”?
The granny charger will have a box of tricks in it which takes car of monitoring but obviously can't govern what circuit you plug it in to.RobDickinson said:
audi321 said:
Thanks all.
Give it a go with what you have. I've charged our ev on a normal plug socket (actually 8 amps) for the last 2 years.Unless you are doing over 50 miles a day every day it should work ok.
I actually use 7kw wall charger because I can... But I can see that statistically for most motorists the 13a would be enough if they kept on top of it.
I'd certainly rather plug in to a socket ten times a week than go to a petrol station once a week. Quicker... Cheaper..
TheDeuce said:
pghstochaj said:
For people that use a 3 pin plug, do you not have the necessary safety requirements normally required for the “chargers” (correct rcd or 6 mA dc leakage detection, appropriate earthing or Earth fault detection) or do these features sit within the “granny charger”?
Everything is in the charger brick on the cable. Any 13a socket is ok.
About the only benefit you miss with the extension is the temperature sensing the 10A cables tend to have on the 3 pin plug.
Proper 7kW EVSE only adds to the joy of EV experience aswell and means you dont need to plug in every day or gives higher mileage drives more chance to flex those low EV tarriff. Certainly was the reason I was happy to pay the upfront costs for me knowing the payback over the next 12months on reduced electricity costs.
Proper 7kW EVSE only adds to the joy of EV experience aswell and means you dont need to plug in every day or gives higher mileage drives more chance to flex those low EV tarriff. Certainly was the reason I was happy to pay the upfront costs for me knowing the payback over the next 12months on reduced electricity costs.
pghstochaj said:
TheDeuce said:
pghstochaj said:
For people that use a 3 pin plug, do you not have the necessary safety requirements normally required for the “chargers” (correct rcd or 6 mA dc leakage detection, appropriate earthing or Earth fault detection) or do these features sit within the “granny charger”?
Everything is in the charger brick on the cable. Any 13a socket is ok.TheDeuce said:
Anything that comes with a pre fitted plug must confirm to whatever safety standards it needs to when plugged in to any regulation meeting socket.
I am sure the "charger" and cable does, no doubt in that, but that doesn't mean the system overall does. That is, the manufacturer of the "charger" is not responsible for making sure you have adequate safety features on the 3-pin socket being used. I had a bit of a google on this out of interest this morning, I will do a bit more searching but as far as I can see, the "charger" primarily has features to tell the car it can charge, not that it has appropriate RCD protection (or 6 mA DC leakage detection) or suitable earthing system/earth fault detection.
pghstochaj said:
TheDeuce said:
Anything that comes with a pre fitted plug must confirm to whatever safety standards it needs to when plugged in to any regulation meeting socket.
I am sure the "charger" and cable does, no doubt in that, but that doesn't mean the system overall does. That is, the manufacturer of the "charger" is not responsible for making sure you have adequate safety features on the 3-pin socket being used. I had a bit of a google on this out of interest this morning, I will do a bit more searching but as far as I can see, the "charger" primarily has features to tell the car it can charge, not that it has appropriate RCD protection (or 6 mA DC leakage detection) or suitable earthing system/earth fault detection.
What exactly are you concerned about? And do you have this concern when you turn your kettle on every day?
audi321 said:
pghstochaj said:
TheDeuce said:
Anything that comes with a pre fitted plug must confirm to whatever safety standards it needs to when plugged in to any regulation meeting socket.
I am sure the "charger" and cable does, no doubt in that, but that doesn't mean the system overall does. That is, the manufacturer of the "charger" is not responsible for making sure you have adequate safety features on the 3-pin socket being used. I had a bit of a google on this out of interest this morning, I will do a bit more searching but as far as I can see, the "charger" primarily has features to tell the car it can charge, not that it has appropriate RCD protection (or 6 mA DC leakage detection) or suitable earthing system/earth fault detection.
What exactly are you concerned about? And do you have this concern when you turn your kettle on every day?
A 13 amp fuse and a 16/32 amp breaker/fuse at the consumer unit protect you for over current, nothing else. The mode 2 chargers also have overheat protection for a similar purpose. This is just one type of hazard however.
Electrical protection has moved on a lot from simply over current protection and most properties now have RCDs rather than fuses/breakers. They detect for a fault to earth which could occur when charging something outside (e.g. from water ingress or mechanical damage of the unit or cable) and trip the circuit. The issue is that supposedly, you can have DC leakage current from an EV car whilst charging and this can blind a typical Type A RCD which can prevent the tripping of the circuit during an earth fault. This means that a Type B RCD is required (which are quite rare and typically expensive), or alternatively, some further equipment to detect for DC leakage and to trip the circuit if needed so that a blinded RCD would not continue to operate during an earth fault due to this blinding.
I don't think a mode 2 charger has this feature built up so it should be within the 3-pin circuit, if the regulations require it. I have not checked if there is a reason why the regulations are different in this respect for a mode 2 charger but as far as I can see, the risk is the same, so would appreciate any explanation to the contrary.
Secondly, you have earthing. If you have a PME system and plug in a 3-pin mode 2 charger, you will be carrying your house earth to the charger. If there is then a fault on the earthing system between your house and the transformer, a "PEN fault", then the mode 2 charger will not know this and you could end up charging without an earth (unknowingly). A mode 3 charger property installed to a house with PME earthing system will either have an earth rod installed for the charger and two separate earthing systems, or the PME carried through but with detection for PEN faults and all "extraneous-conductive-parts" equally bonded.
On a quick check, the above chargers do not have PEN fault detection but again, I am not sure why the risk would be any different between a mode 2 or mode 3 charger. Happy for somebody to explain why the risk is different.
Regarding my kettle, I probably don't have to point out that charging an EV car outside is not comparable to turning on a double insulated kettle in your house.
Happy to be educated about why a "Granny Charger" is safe when plugged into a normal 3 pin socket with Type A RCD protection and using the house PME earthing system, particularly as I do have a "Granny Charger" and one day might need to use it.
audi321 said:
I think you’re seriously overthinking this. It has a 13amp fuse, which in turn will have a 16/32amp breaker/fuse at the consumer unit.
What exactly are you concerned about? And do you have this concern when you turn your kettle on every day?
it's a different situation to switching the kettle on. What exactly are you concerned about? And do you have this concern when you turn your kettle on every day?
anything which is outside of the premises and connected to your mains supply e.g. lawn mower / hedge trimmer etc. will be double insulated and have no exposed metal parts so you can't provide a circuit to the wet garden and get zapped. an EV connected to your mains supply pretty much flies in the face of all the safety procedures developed over the years to reduce the potential (pun!) for electric shocks. complex systems for detecting the likelihood of this happening are required and the regulations regarding this are continuously tightened up.
'granny cables' which plug into a std 13A 3 pin plug have limited protection against such fault conditions and at best should be considered a temporary solution. plenty of folk use these and haven't been zapped but that doesn't mean they're safe, it just means that the fault conditions which more sophisticated systems will detect and prevent haven't yet happened in their installation. using the granny cable rather than a 'proper' device is like saying " i don't need an RCD in my consumer unit because my mate's CU hasn't got one and he's fine".
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