Human-nature?: One of EV’s unanswered questions:

[Dave Hedgehog]

OldDuffer said:

OK, then, whatever that period is, I wrote "dependent on who you listen to" (pick your number) my mistake in the question might be to give numbers ranging 4-8 years, the question remains.

Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 2nd December 09:25

i believe its a EU requirement that batteries and motors are warranted for 8 years

Tesla's last report showed less than 10% battery degradation on the fleet with cars over 200k miles

unless you get unlucky you wont be buying a battery, the batteries are also repairable, there are firms in the US already doing it

ICE cars also suffer major failures even at low mileage

[TheDeuce]

Dave Hedgehog said:

Tesla's last report showed less than 10% battery degradation on the fleet with cars over 200k miles

Exactly. So the batteries need to be replaced... never, by nobody and at zero cost. Unless most people suddenly start to drive cars in to 200k mile++ age, there simply isn't an issue. Given that people's annual mileage is dropping too... that 200k trouble free motoring should be more than sufficient

[OldDuffer]

TheDeuce said:

Admit it... You're being silly aren't you?

Do you understand that your car, and definitely the 50's Cadillac have created far more CO2 from their use than their manufacture? If you had switched to a greener car mid point through your current cars life you would almost certainly be greener at this point - in fact, given your mileage, you definitely would be.

Am I? The manufacture of, in my case a car that does in mpg 60% of what it's modern ICE equiv. will do means a modern ICE's 40% advantage may not be enough to cover the fact that whereas everyone else has bought 3-4 cars more than me, they had to make the things. 3-4 cars is a lot of steel, plastics etc etc. OK I have no idea what the footprint for all that is, but I suspect the 40% improvement isn't enough. - this at average miles anyway. Making an EV consumes a different cocktail of nasties, I supsect not much less than an ICE car, and can't be good. The fuel used to move the thing in a more typical case is not as high relative to manufacture as we'd think.


"the 50's Cadillac have created far more CO2 from their use than their manufacture"

Are you sure? I read that even an EV needs 70K miles to match the energy requirement in manufacture, (but liek all this stuff the source has a bias) but if we take it at face, s the difference is not that marked, and in my case I didn't require 3-4 of the cars others did? Going your way, 3-4 EVs have some catching up to do over my route? And if we take our, Cadillac it represents 20-25 cars NOT manufactured? Let us not be in doubt, the EV wins in the finish, but is the differnece as marked as some would see it? I don't know. And the problem is, each side quotes a heap of rubbish to support their saintly position. Most of it utter dirge.

Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 2nd December 15:05

[MuscleSedan]

ZesPak said:

MuscleSedan said:

Someone always mentions EV reliability as if nothing will ever go wrong. There's still a huge amount to potentially go wrong, an out of warranty EV with faults won't be a fun thing.

Out of warranty with any modern car is going to be problematic.
Look at the top items putting ice cars out of commission and tell me how they affect an EV.

Modern ICE drivetrains are now overall incredibly reliable. You just don't get random head gasket failure, gearbox failure etc like you may have seen in the past. In the trade it's electrical problems, software issues etc that I've seen become far more prevalent. Those sort of problems are the same for all vehicles regardless of powertrain.


These are new / nearly new EVs ....

https://www.whatcar.com/news/2021-what-car-reliabi...


Least reliable electric cars

1. Jaguar I-Pace (2018-present)

Reliability rating 86.3%

What went wrong? Battery 13%, non-motor electrics 10%, sat-nav 10%, motor electrics 8%, air-con 5%, motor 3% suspension 3%

Owners told us that 30% of their I-Paces had suffered a fault, and that a staggering 75% of these stricken cars had been stuck in service departments for more than a week – some for more than a month. The only positive is that all the remedial work was carried out under warranty.

Owner’s view "It’s a great electric SUV, but the technology it comes with isn’t the most responsive or dependable"


2. Nissan Leaf (2019-present)

Reliability rating 89.7%

The latest Leaf has been stricken by far more faults than the original model; owners told us 45% of their cars had gone wrong, with problem areas including the electric motor battery, 12-volt battery and a range of other electrical systems. Although all cars were fixed for free, 9% spent more than a week in the garage.


3. Renault Zoe (2013-2020)

Reliability rating 92.6%

Zoe owners said that 24% of their cars had been troublesome, with issues affecting the air-con, bodywork, electric motor and non-motor electrics. Although 75% of the faulty cars were fixed for free, the remaining 25% left owners with bills exceeding £1500, and 25% of them spent more than a week off the road.

[TheDeuce]

OldDuffer said:

TheDeuce said:

Admit it... You're being silly aren't you?

Do you understand that your car, and definitely the 50's Cadillac have created far more CO2 from their use than their manufacture? If you had switched to a greener car mid point through your current cars life you would almost certainly be greener at this point - in fact, given your mileage, you definitely would be.

Am I? The manufacture of, in my case a car that does in mpg 60% of what it's modern ICE equiv. will do means a modern ICE's 40% advantage may not be enough to cover the fact that whereas everyone else has bought 3-4 cars more than me, they had to make the things. 3-4 cars is a lot of steel, plastics etc etc. OK I have no idea what the footprint for all that is, but I suspect the 40% improvement isn't enough. - this at average miles anyway. Making an EV consumes a different cocktail of nasties, I supsect not much less than an ICE car, and can't be good. The fuel used to move the thing in a more typical case is not as high relative to manufacture as we'd think.


"the 50's Cadillac have created far more CO2 from their use than their manufacture"

Are you sure? I read that even an EV needs 70K miles to match the energy requirement in manufacture, (but liek all this stuff the source has a bias) but if we take it at face, s the difference is not that marked, and in my case I didn't require 3-4 of the cars others did? Going your way, 3-4 EVs have some catching up to do over my route? And if we take our, Cadillac it represents 20-25 cars NOT manufactured? Let us not be in doubt, the EV wins in the finish, but is the differnece as marked as some would see it? I don't know. And the problem is, each side quotes a heap of rubbish to support their saintly position. Most of it utter dirge.

Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 2nd December 15:05

Give it up mate. The age of the cars you're talking about and in particular the mileage you do in yours.. You've exceeded the CO2 manufacturing cost of ICE or EV replacements several times over.



God know haw accurate this particular comparison is - but all that matters is that you see clearly that even an average aged, modern ICE car's carbon footprint is ten times more from use than from manufacture. God knows how much worse you quarter century old steed must be, especially given you do more than double average miles. I would guess you're around 40 times the CO2 in fuel use compared to the original CO2 cost to make the car.

[Dave Hedgehog]

TheDeuce said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

Tesla's last report showed less than 10% battery degradation on the fleet with cars over 200k miles

Exactly. So the batteries need to be replaced... never, by nobody and at zero cost. Unless most people suddenly start to drive cars in to 200k mile++ age, there simply isn't an issue. Given that people's annual mileage is dropping too... that 200k trouble free motoring should be more than sufficient

there is always going to be the odd early failure in any device, but it should be rare, currently Tesla batteries are designed for 500k miles of use (way beyond the life of the car), their next gen of chemistry is designed for 1000k miles

[kambites]

OldDuffer said:

I read that even an EV needs 70K miles to match the energy requirement in manufacture,

You read wrong then. Or at least you read something which wasn't talking about the UK market. Even the oil companies don't attempt to a claim that extreme in the UK!

ETA: Actually do you mean an EV needs to drive 70k miles to match the energy used in its manufacture? That sounds plausible because EVs use so little energy in use. That would mean you need to drive a 15mpg petrol car maybe 10k miles to emit as much carbon dioxide as is used in the manufacture of an EV, which sounds plausible?

Edited by kambites on Thursday 2nd December 15:28

[Dave Hedgehog]

TheDeuce said:

Give it up mate. The age of the cars you're talking about and in particular the mileage you do in yours.. You've exceeded the CO2 manufacturing cost of ICE or EV replacements several times over.



God know haw accurate this particular comparison is - but all that matters is that you see clearly that even an average aged, modern ICE car's carbon footprint is ten times more from use than from manufacture. God knows how much worse you quarter century old steed must be, especially given you do more than double average miles. I would guess you're around 40 times the CO2 in fuel use compared to the original CO2 cost to make the car.

how old is it as well, was it pre or post Tesla's factory going 100% renewable

Some states in the US have utterly filthy energy mix with heavy coal use

[ZesPak]

MuscleSedan said:

Modern ICE drivetrains are now overall incredibly reliable. You just don't get random head gasket failure, gearbox failure etc like you may have seen in the past. In the trade it's electrical problems, software issues etc that I've seen become far more prevalent. Those sort of problems are the same for all vehicles regardless of powertrain.

Yep, but the ones putting cars effecitvely out of service are still gearbox, egr, turbo and the like. A lot of things not present in EV's. Then making a list of some EV's with a less than stellar reliability record doesn't change that fact.

[TheDeuce]

Dave Hedgehog said:

TheDeuce said:

Give it up mate. The age of the cars you're talking about and in particular the mileage you do in yours.. You've exceeded the CO2 manufacturing cost of ICE or EV replacements several times over.



God know haw accurate this particular comparison is - but all that matters is that you see clearly that even an average aged, modern ICE car's carbon footprint is ten times more from use than from manufacture. God knows how much worse you quarter century old steed must be, especially given you do more than double average miles. I would guess you're around 40 times the CO2 in fuel use compared to the original CO2 cost to make the car.

how old is it as well, was it pre or post Tesla's factory going 100% renewable

Some states in the US have utterly filthy energy mix with heavy coal use

Who knows.. but all that matters is the chart shows how much CO2 ICE cars are responsible for over and above manufacture - and it's a lot, and gets more extreme the older and higher mileage the car. It only ever gets worse with time.

[off_again]

OldDuffer said:

We do this because we have a greater desire to impress people we don’t like.

Hahah, bought an i3.... in the USA.... that absolutely ISNT to impress the neighbors.... Most people dont know what it is. And the remaining people just look down on a 'little hatchback'. So yeah, not me. It is however a fun car to drive, highly rated by owners and has to be one of the easiest cars to use / abuse for in town / city driving. Thats why I bought one!

As for your other points - I see what you are trying to say. Yes, we are humans and we do stupid things. Do we need to buy that nice watch for $500 / $5000 when a perfectly good and reliable Casio will work just as well for $25? We like nice things and we like the status (to a degree) that goes with it. Not necessarily to show off, but to have the thing that we covet. There is also the hassle factor too. We like to have confidence in things and trust that they will work. If we can afford something, made easy with attractive finance deals, new, why wouldnt we? A healthy warranty, good dealer service etc. Something goes wrong we get a replacement car for the time ours is in the shop, and are treated like a good customer all the time, thats nice, right? Could we make do with something thats 15 years old? Probably, but I for one dont mind paying extra to have that hassle removed and to have a nice experience if something does go wrong.

Do all EV's suffer massive capacity drop? Nope, not at all. Should we expect that there is some? Yes, and manufacturers put in a lot of effort to manage that over the projected life of the vehicle. But to take the counter view for a second, an ICE car has never had issues, right? They are built to last 15+ years with minimal maintenance, right? Or should we skip things like the V10 BMW engines? Or the transfer cases on 958 Cayenne's? Or the Porsche IMS bearing issue (which isnt as widespread as the internet says, but can randomly make your engine go boom). Or we could go a little further back and talk about the Cadillac Northstar V8, which had massive issues to the point that if your car made it to 100k miles without a rebuild, you were doing great! And even less 'premium' brands like Subaru suffered with some earlier models having massive head gasket and oil leak issues - which necessitated extensive engine work to rectify. While not all of these issues were a 'replace the engine', they all amount to massive potential bills for work on an engine WELL BEFORE its projected life, and in most of those cases would be equal to or more than the value of the vehicle!

What will happen is the market will price these things out over time. Some will do well, Tesla for example which is proven to be pretty damn reliable. Some wont, like Nissan and the earlier Leaf, which drops like a stone. But they will be priced accordingly and the market will manage that. And ultimately, the third party market will step in and we will find places that will fix your Prius, replace your Leaf battery or even upgrade your i3 (yes, its starting to come!). You are making a massive assumption that people will only go to high priced dealers only, forgetting that aftermarket providers are popping up as the market demands and we are seeing some interesting moves. Take a look at Electrified Garage in the US (Rich Rebuilds on YouTube) - no offering fixed Tesla batteries at massively discounted prices....

[OldDuffer]

TheDeuce said:

Who knows.. but all that matters is the chart shows how much CO2 ICE cars are responsible for over and above manufacture - and it's a lot, and gets more extreme the older and higher mileage the car. It only ever gets worse with time.

Oh, be clear - I'm not claiming sainthood. If the figures are correct, and lifecycle adds up as the EV clique has it, the EV argument is won. It seems, right or wrong we're steaming in the EV direction anyway. And we're to be rid of gas in our homes too. Where this extra amperage for mass-market EV - as well asheating - comes from isn't clear.

My issue is that so much of the info comes from vested sources. I'm sure if I dig hard enough, I can find more tripe that appears to rubbish EV, and it'll look just as plausible. A fine example came from this thread, words to the effect that an EV will do 300K. Neglecting to say if this was over 12 months or 12 years - well it might - or selecting 10 years for an old ICE over 15. I can do much the same, pick the convenient fact, with range of an ICE etc. All this provided I neglect to mention the more salient.

We're on the road anyway, but with so much blind evangelical blood-letting in some quarters, I'm left to wonder. I suspect the only way we're going to see this thrashed out, is in about 7-8 years - when the tech has settled-in, and EV are on their third and fourth owners. It'll be then that we'll know if this a true solution or another diesel scandal.

Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 2nd December 16:57

[TheDeuce]

OldDuffer said:

TheDeuce said:

Who knows.. but all that matters is the chart shows how much CO2 ICE cars are responsible for over and above manufacture - and it's a lot, and gets more extreme the older and higher mileage the car. It only ever gets worse with time.

Oh, be clear - I'm not claiming sainthood. If the figures are correct, and lifecycle adds up as the EV clique has it, the EV argument is won. It seems, right or wrong we're steaming in the EV direction anyway. And we're to be rid of gas in our homes too. Where this extra amperage for mass-market EV - as well asheating - comes from isn't clear.

My issue is that so much of the info comes from vested sources. I'm sure if I dig hard enough, I can find more tripe that appears to rubbish EV, and it'll look just as plausible. A fine example came from this thread, words to the effect that an EV will do 300K. Neglecting to say if this was over 12 months or 12 years - well it might - or selecting 10 years for an old ICE over 15. I can do much the same, pick the convenient fact, with range of an ICE etc. All this provided I neglect to mention the more salient.

We're on the road anyway, but with so much blind evangelical blood-letting in some quarters, I'm left to wonder. I suspect the only way we're going to see this thrashed out, is in about 7-8 years - when the tech has settled-in, and EV are on their third and fourth owners. It'll be then that we'll know if this a true solution or another diesel scandal.

Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 2nd December 16:57

It's not just EV that's won - a ten years newer modern ICE equivalent of your 1998 car would win easily too. The argument for keeping a car beyond a certain lifespan, especially if efficiency gains have been made in that time, just doesn't stack up - unless the car is worth keeping as a future classic etc.

Regards 7-8 years, we're already a decade from the first wave of Tesla Model S cars hit the road, you can already observe the resilient battery life and the value of the cars reducing roughly in line with what we see with ICE - albeit the used car market is heavily skewed right now so we can only make broad observations.

Out of interest, what is this old car you have?

[OldDuffer]

TheDeuce said:

It's not just EV that's won - a ten years newer modern ICE equivalent of your 1998 car would win easily too. The argument for keeping a car beyond a certain lifespan, especially if efficiency gains have been made in that time, just doesn't stack up - unless the car is worth keeping as a future classic etc.

Agreed, provided you're paying - Outside of tax, insurance at £200, and fuel, I don't spend much over £3-500 a year on the thing, and most of that is tyres. How so? I've just bought a brand new radiator for £60. Which to do my miles, others ditch £3-500 a month. Don't get me wrong I'd have a £60K car tomorrow, but other things make me happier, and if it's my money, the gains in efficiency would need to be 5-6+ fold to stack, and they're not.

TheDeuce said:

Out of interest, what is this old car you have?

There's only 2-3 cars from that era capable of 'miles', and if you're looking it's those you see on our roads today. Old Beemers, and Volvos. Ask you MOT tester which car he last saw that was both MOTable, over 20 years old and with 300K+ on there, and it'll be one of those. You used to be able to say this of Mercs, but of that vintage, they're s**. VW and Jap stuff and Mercs 'would' do it but are long gone down to rot and/or daft parts prices.

Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 2nd December 18:31

[off_again]

OldDuffer said:

Oh, be clear - I'm not claiming sainthood. If the figures are correct, and lifecycle adds up as the EV clique has it, the EV argument is won. It seems, right or wrong we're steaming in the EV direction anyway. And we're to be rid of gas in our homes too. Where this extra amperage for mass-market EV - as well asheating - comes from isn't clear.

The EV argument has not won by any stretch. 2.4% of new vehicles sold in the US were EV's, thats niche not mainstream. Yes, there is growth and a lot of manufacturers are jumping into the market, but there is still a lot to do, a lot of infrastructure that has to be built and a big change in mindset for the average buyer. And for many, an EV just doesnt work for them - and thats fine, this shift will take time.

OldDuffer said:

My issue is that so much of the info comes from vested sources. I'm sure if I dig hard enough, I can find more tripe that appears to rubbish EV, and it'll look just as plausible. A fine example came from this thread, words to the effect that an EV will do 300K. Neglecting to say if this was over 12 months or 12 years - well it might - or selecting 10 years for an old ICE over 15. I can do much the same, pick the convenient fact, with range of an ICE etc. All this provided I neglect to mention the more salient.

There is a whole load of crap thrown around on both sides of the argument, much of it BS. Its impressive to see how far the ICE market has come. Cars are heavier (safer), bigger and yet they are more efficient, powerful, feature laden and faster - and their emissions have improved drastically over the last 15-20 years. Impressive stuff. EV's are more costly up front on manufacture yes, but have fewer moving parts, potentially simpler and should last longer - oh and their energy supply is getting more independent every year. Are they the answer to everything? Nope. But for an average driver doing average things, they sure do fit well.

I am really a carrot person vs a stick. We need to promote and guide buyers, not hit them with a stick to do something. Governments should be tempting buyers with incentives and commitments to de-risk the purchase, not beating with a stick with threats and fines. But hey, governments can be voted in or out, thats in our collective control.

OldDuffer said:

We're on the road anyway, but with so much blind evangelical blood-letting in some quarters, I'm left to wonder. I suspect the only way we're going to see this thrashed out, is in about 7-8 years - when the tech has settled-in, and EV are on their third and fourth owners. It'll be then that we'll know if this a true solution or another diesel scandal.

I dont see this as the same as the diesel scandal and I do see that in general, EV's have proven themselves. We really only have data from one manufacturer and their fan base can skew it heavily, but the market prices old Model S's well and a 2014 model still holds up well from a value point of view. Compared to something similar in age and mileage, they are worth more (BMW or Mercedes for example). If they were truly disposable at a decade old, it would have near to zero value - but dont, so that says something!

With my i3, its going to be 5 years old in March and we are its 3rd owner. Seems to be holding up well and currently no reason to dispose of it! In fact, if things work out how we want, we might pass it to our daughter and buy a new EV next year! So I guess she's staring down a barrel of an unserviceable car that isnt worth it in a couple of years time? I guess we just throw it away now, because you know, the battery will die....

And I will consistently stick to what I have always said about EV's - they arent the answer to everything. Yes, some are interesting, fast or efficient. I find the market interesting and I cant wait to see what manufacturers are going to do over the next couple of years. But I fully understand and realize that it absolutely isnt the answer to everything. If we really want to reduce our emissions and impact, we need to think about a much more sustainable transport system - person transport cars parked in every drive that are stationary for 70% of their life is a really bad use of resources.... but hey, I want a car, so I guess I need to realize that I am going to pay for it.

Bottom line, EV's are here and the market is growing, but its far from decided and its still a niche market and will be for some time to come. And for a lot of buyers, ICE is still the way forward. And for a lot of owners today, they dont want to spend money on a depreciating asset - so guess what, DONT. Keep that older car that you love running. Drive what you want to drive. Have fun and enjoy it. Ignore the EV bigots who demand you have to buy a <insert brand here> car.... its your life, your money and your choice. No one is holding a gun to your head, so go with what you want. Last time I checked, its still a free country, right?

[GT9]

OD and Luke need to get a room and produce a new breed of ultimate dinowarrior. Would love to read the ramblings of that spawn!

[anonymous-user]

It does seem a common trend that uninformed and often rather biased posters seemt to be quite confident in stating that "batteries wear out" and yet completely ignorant of the fact that an internal combust engine wears out every time you use it as well!

A modern ICE passenger car has a design life (ie an estimated average life before a critical failure is experienced under typical useage conditions) of 150,000 miles and 10 years

A modern BEV passenger car has a design life (ie an estimated average life before a critical failure is experienced under typical useage conditions) of 150,000 miles and 10 years

Either could fail at 10,000 miles after a single year, or be nursed out to 25 years and 300,000 miles if you were lucky. But, on average the wouid be expected to have a very similar End of Life position, because the OEMs design them that way.

The difference is however that other important factors play a major part:


1) The BEV almost certainly gets greener as it ages, because our grids are becomimg more and more renewable based. The ICE is getting a LOT dirtier as it ages, esp, with modern hgihly complex ICEs where the aftertreatment is extremely finely tuned. It's not unusual for a 5 yo ICE with say 60,000 miles on the clock to have tail pipe NOx emissions 10 or even 100 times higher than when new. And of course, when an BEV fails it simply stops and doesnt' consume or pollute, an ICE with say a failed Cat, blocked (or removed....) DPF, or worn injectors or whatever is catastrophically polluting

2) The major wearing element in a BEV wears slowly, consistently and is extensively monitored. You can go buy say an old nissan leaf, spend less than £25 on leaf spy, and get the exact state of wear of every single cell in the battery. That is simply not possible for an ICE. You might get lucky, you might well buy a 10yo diesel focus and get another 10 years out of it, or the turbo/egr/dmf/injectors/dpf (delete as appropriate) may well st themselves terminally on your drive home.... You can start it, listen to it, give it rev, look for smoke out the back, even perhaps look under the oil filler cao, but ultimately, even an expert mechanic is taking a best guess gamble.

3) When the battery is indeed worn, and at some point it will be, it is very mechancially simple to take it out, repair or replace it, pop it back in, and the rest of the drive train is likley to be in very good state. No clutches, or complex multispeed transmissions, no dual mass flywheels, no exhaust aftertreatment or EGR, no ultra high precision fuel system, complex high temperature cooling system, none of that is present to be also worn out.



Today, in 2021 i believe there are only two (and a half) valid critisisms of BEV passenger cars:

1) They can be boring to drive to car ethusiasts due to a lack of noise and driver engagement
2) The public charging network sucks currently

and the half) They can be expensive to buy new

[OldDuffer]

off_again said:

I dont see this as the same as the diesel scandal and I do see that in general, EV's have proven themselves. We really only have data from one manufacturer and their fan base can skew it heavily, but the market prices old Model S's well and a 2014 model still holds up well from a value point of view. Compared to something similar in age and mileage, they are worth more (BMW or Mercedes for example). If they were truly disposable at a decade old, it would have near to zero value - but dont, so that says something!

With my i3, its going to be 5 years old in March and we are its 3rd owner. Seems to be holding up well and currently no reason to dispose of it! In fact, if things work out how we want, we might pass it to our daughter and buy a new EV next year! So I guess she's staring down a barrel of an unserviceable car that isnt worth it in a couple of years time? I guess we just throw it away now, because you know, the battery will die....

And I will consistently stick to what I have always said about EV's - they arent the answer to everything. Yes, some are interesting, fast or efficient. I find the market interesting and I cant wait to see what manufacturers are going to do over the next couple of years. But I fully understand and realize that it absolutely isnt the answer to everything. If we really want to reduce our emissions and impact, we need to think about a much more sustainable transport system - person transport cars parked in every drive that are stationary for 70% of their life is a really bad use of resources.... but hey, I want a car, so I guess I need to realize that I am going to pay for it.

Bottom line, EV's are here and the market is growing, but its far from decided and its still a niche market and will be for some time to come. And for a lot of buyers, ICE is still the way forward. And for a lot of owners today, they dont want to spend money on a depreciating asset - so guess what, DONT. Keep that older car that you love running. Drive what you want to drive. Have fun and enjoy it. Ignore the EV bigots who demand you have to buy a <insert brand here> car.... its your life, your money and your choice. No one is holding a gun to your head, so go with what you want. Last time I checked, its still a free country, right?

Hallejah, along with the Yank a few posts back, a sane balanced voice able to step thru' the bigotry and blind thinking. To answer the primary 'bangernomics' question, who will change-out batteries, if the bigots are correct, we won't need to. The batteries will die at the same pace as the value of the cars, much as engines in ICE vehicles do. Somehow I can't see the depreciation cycle working quite the same. But then none of us knows for sure.

All said, this thread is dying on it's arse, I'm done.

[GT9]

Bigotry you say. Hmmm.

[SWoll]

Max_Torque said:

Today, in 2021 i believe there are only two (and a half) valid critisisms of BEV passenger cars:

1) They can be boring to drive to car ethusiasts due to a lack of noise and driver engagement
2) The public charging network sucks currently

and the half) They can be expensive to buy new

I'll give you 1) but the public charging network isn't that bad in my experience, even outside of the Tesla Supercharger network. Think a lot of it depends on where in the country you are TBH?

GT9 said:

Bigotry you say. Hmmm.

Honestly, it's embarrassing isn't it?

Has an epiphany, shares it, gets told it's rubbish by people with far more knowledge and experience on the subject and then flounces of calling people bigots.