Human-nature?: One of EV’s unanswered questions:

[off_again]

OldDuffer said:

Hallejah, along with the Yank a few posts back, a sane balanced voice able to step thru' the bigotry and blind thinking. To answer the primary 'bangernomics' question, who will change-out batteries, if the bigots are correct, we won't need to. The batteries will die at the same pace as the value of the cars, much as engines in ICE vehicles do. Somehow I can't see the depreciation cycle working quite the same. But then none of us knows for sure.

All said, this thread is dying on it's arse, I'm done.

Yank? Phah... Brit that moved to the US, not a yank...



Actually, I see a burgeoning market for third parties here. There are a slew of companies that now do hybrid battery replacements for a spread of cars now (well here in California at least). Prices range from $1200 to $3700 depending on model and type (cheapest are Toyota Prius, most expensive are GM truck hybrids). While not cheap, its a fraction of what the manufacturers would charge.

We are starting to see EV battery specialists too - Tesla being the primary one - where they can rebuild packs, again for a fraction of the cost of the full pack. Still not cheap, but when Tesla wants $20k for a new Model S battery pack, you know there will be specialists who will jump in and repair where they can. Still looking at a couple of k to do, but probably very much in line with a major ICE failure, so not out of the realms of reasonable or rarity.

Now, are EV's building serviceability? Thats a good question. Some are actively fighting against it (Tesla), but it will be interesting to see what other vendors are going to do. VW has, in general, been pretty good at serviceability, and from what I have seen, they have attempted to make the ID models cheaper to manage and maintain - though there is a big question on the battery pack at the moment. BMW on the other hand (on the i3 at least) have built their pack to be disposable, so it can be repaired and again, we are starting to see specialists who can refurbish them! Lets see if the manufacturers are going to provide support for these third parties - and a right to repair too.

But its going to be interesting and its going to change quickly, but its still niche today.

[TheDeuce]

OldDuffer said:

All said, this thread is dying on it's arse, I'm done.

It was on it's arse when you started it

But it's been entertaining and probably educational for others that actually believe an EV is a ticking time bomb in terms of longevity compared to what people are used to with ICE.

I'm sure within a month another thread will pop up questioning battery lifespan though

[off_again]

TheDeuce said:

But it's been entertaining and probably educational for others that actually believe an EV is a ticking time bomb in terms of longevity compared to what people are used to with ICE.

Someone down my street has an E60 M5. I remember thinking "brave man" when I see it around. Heard it starting up the other day, misfires and splutters with an eventual sudden stop....

Now THAT is a ticking timebomb....

Brave man and hats off..... but wow, that sounded really expensive. At least its the manual, so thats not going to go pop.

[DodgyGeezer]

Curious to see if there's anything to this article (Taycan reliability issues)...

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/whistleblower-s...

[off_again]

DodgyGeezer said:

Curious to see if there's anything to this article (Taycan reliability issues)...

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/whistleblower-s...

Interesting - Porsche hasnt screwed up before, no that would never happen..... :cough: IMS, GT3 and transfer cases.... :cough:

[TheDeuce]

off_again said:

TheDeuce said:

But it's been entertaining and probably educational for others that actually believe an EV is a ticking time bomb in terms of longevity compared to what people are used to with ICE.

Someone down my street has an E60 M5. I remember thinking "brave man" when I see it around. Heard it starting up the other day, misfires and splutters with an eventual sudden stop....

Now THAT is a ticking timebomb....

Brave man and hats off..... but wow, that sounded really expensive. At least its the manual, so thats not going to go pop.

Vanos issues... A particular problem and in fairness not a general problem for ICE cars.

Then again, EV's can easily match the power of the V10 M5 and suffer no such issues as they suffer no such mechanical complexity. There's not really anything much to go wrong in regards to an EV drive train.

[RobDickinson]

Its a tough choice isnt it.


A 10 year old petrol car with £2-4000 a year running costs + servicing etc

Or a 10 year old EV with 80% of the as new range and about £400 a year running costs.


Old piston things are going to have to be very very special to be kept on the road

[GT9]

TheDeuce said:

OldDuffer said:

All said, this thread is dying on it's arse, I'm done.

It was on it's arse when you started it

OP is maintaining his 100% track record for abortion level threads.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[RobDickinson]

oh god its not that simon rockingham (sp?) guy back is it

[GT9]

RobDickinson said:

oh god its not that simon rockingham (sp?) guy back is it

No, Rob, it’s not. It’s different but the same, if you know what I mean.
SimonYorkshire was our resident LPG man, old duffer is our resident CNG man. Different gas you see.

[RobDickinson]

Ah righto as you were

[ZesPak]

OldDuffer said:

All said, this thread is dying on it's arse, I'm done.

Just like the generation that thinks the Koch family needs more money.

[Mr E]

off_again said:

Brave man and hats off..... but wow, that sounded really expensive. At least its the manual, so thats not going to go pop.

Nerd alert;
E60 M5 manuals were USA only specials if I remember rightly? So very unusual (although as you say, one less expensive box to fail)

I looked at an E61 M5 and got very scared by potential faults.

[TheDeuce]

GT9 said:

TheDeuce said:

OldDuffer said:

All said, this thread is dying on it's arse, I'm done.

It was on it's arse when you started it

OP is maintaining his 100% track record for abortion level threads.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Jesus

I'm looking forward to his next thread. Is that wrong...?

[J__Wood]

OldDuffer said:

But is it? Be clear I don't know the answer to this. I'm a high-mile user never doing less than 15K, until lock-down, often 25-26K a year. I bought my 1998 car at 2 years old. Most of you have owned 4-5 cars in that time. Me? With galactic miles, one shed. And i do own a engine-crane. Had I bought 4-5 odd cars most would be scrap by now. Which is greener? I can't answer.

4-5 x Prius etc or 1 x 1998 Eurobox?

And i could be wrong.

Edited by OldDuffer on Thursday 2nd December 12:27

As you brought up Prius I had a quick google and found a 04-09 Toyota Prius having its batteries replaced in Nov 2018, so surely for someone who bought that car it could be 23 years of ownership - "1 x Prius with one $1999 battery replacement or 1 x 1998 Eurobox ". Nearly ten years of battery improvements to longevity and capacity.

Added bonus no oily hands and from the video only takes around 27 minutes, which as an Older Duffer by 2028 should it need another battery you'll probably appreciate. There is another video showing someone taking out and reinstalling the battery pack in 15 minutes, obviously with out replacing the cells.

A pure EV may be more expensive to replace the cells in the battery (plenty of it being done on Youtube) but all that lovely money saved on 21 years of cam belts, plugs or injectors, exhausts, clutches, filters, oil changes and sell your engine crane will surely make bangernomics even easier.

One of our cars is a 13 year old Focus that I've had from new. Many of my cars and bikes I have owned for their wholes lives, with some cases of premature deaths. I can't see why that would change with EVs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3RCdrh666w

[Discombobulate]

OldDuffer said:

Hallejah, along with the Yank a few posts back, a sane balanced voice able to step thru' the bigotry and blind thinking. To answer the primary 'bangernomics' question, who will change-out batteries, if the bigots are correct, we won't need to. The batteries will die at the same pace as the value of the cars, much as engines in ICE vehicles do. Somehow I can't see the depreciation cycle working quite the same. But then none of us knows for sure.

All said, this thread is dying on it's arse, I'm done.

I fear you may be dying on your arse. You need to get out more and step back from the keyboard.

[TheDeuce]

Discombobulate said:

OldDuffer said:

Hallejah, along with the Yank a few posts back, a sane balanced voice able to step thru' the bigotry and blind thinking. To answer the primary 'bangernomics' question, who will change-out batteries, if the bigots are correct, we won't need to. The batteries will die at the same pace as the value of the cars, much as engines in ICE vehicles do. Somehow I can't see the depreciation cycle working quite the same. But then none of us knows for sure.

All said, this thread is dying on it's arse, I'm done.

I fear you may be dying on your arse. You need to get out more and step back from the keyboard.

He can't get out more - the petrol he puts in his old banger now costs more than the car

[OldGermanHeaps]

The aftermarket will develop cheap diagnostic solutions and cheap replacement individual modules for refurbing tired battery packs, the current gearbox rebuilders will see the profit in drive unit refurbs as most of the time its bearings or gears that fail in them, and industrial motor rewinders already exist.
The guys who used to repair crt displays and the guys who currently repair solar inverters have the skills and tools to repair vehicle inverters. Autodata and the like will update their aftermarket manuals and indepandants will pop up all over the place who will be able to keep old evs running on a reasonable budget, its guaranteed to happen. This probably wont happen much for the very early adopter type evs as they are quite st and totally outclassed compared to the new generation, but once the market is mature and lots of capable enough evs start to get tired and out of the dealer network the aftermarket will be ready, the current ev converters and tuners are demonstarting what they can do, and there are some amazing products available right now, at an early adopter price point though.
Some people wont want to get their hands dirty, or wont want to spend a penny to keep a car going, the type of tight sadact that still has their dinner money from school, but fk them, they can be miserable, just as they are now.

[gangzoom]

OldDuffer said:

The vast majority of you are NOT going put a new battery in an 8YO car, and if you say you will - [some definitely will], yet the vast majority are bloody liars. And here’s why…

One of the biggest uncertainties with EVs though is pricing. Its always been assumed like all tech stuff EVs prices will fall and tech get better.....

Here is our 2017 Tesla, we will have owned it for 5 years in March 2022 (so just 3 years away from your 8 year cut off).



It cost us £72k in 2017, and since than I have paid £2k for an computer upgrade and £4.5k for some software changes = £78.5k spent, so not a small amount of money.

You are right as humans we all like new stuff, so occasionally I see what a 'new' version of our car will cost. The numbers are in a small font but essentially £120k. So pretty much 50% price inflation compared to 2017, and they look pretty much the same!!!



Now the new car does has around 60-70 miles more real world range, and better air suspension. Our car will trade in at £55k, so the cost to change for bit more range + nicer air suspension = £65k, you can guess what I say to that .

So here is the really interesting bit. Tesla will replace the battery in our car once its out of warranty (after 8 years) for around £20k (that price is falling). The new battery has roughly 40-50 miles more range than our current car, so in effect means spending £20k on a car we already own gets me 90% of the range a brand new £120k version of our car.

Actually its now a 'no brainer' just to keep our current car for the foreseeable future and simply 'upgrade' the most costly part every decade to get incremental improvements in range.

Not buying a brand new car probably is the 'cleanest' option for anyone who pretends to care about the environment. EVs have a very real chance of reducing or proloning the cycle of new cars every 3 years. The side effect of not swapping new cars every 3 years is used prices will also go up as people buy less new cars.



Oh on your point of an bold Prius, have a proper read of how well they last, and how cheap batteries are to refurbish on them are now. The reliability and durability is one of the reasons why I was quite comfortable dropping a decent amount of ££££ on an EV - Though I fully recognise buying a car from one he most unreliable car brands in existence for long-term ownership probably is a bit mad .

https://www.torquenews.com/1083/driver-1-million-d...

Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 5th December 07:39

[ZesPak]

Not to mention Toyota announced it's 15y 1 000 000 km battery warranties.
https://insideevs.com/news/420681/lexus-ux-300e-ba...
Anyone still buying an ice because they believe they last longer is seriously delusional.

This thread was obsolete long before it started. The neophobia is palpable.