Why are ICE drivers obsessed with EV efficiency?
Discussion
I swear there's hardly a thread in the EV section of the forums which doesn't at some point involve a non EV driver pointing out that EV's aren't actually totally clean. Of course they're not, not even close.
But why do these people assume that EV drivers need telling that!? I've never met an EV driver that believes their car has zero carbon footprint or would pretend that way to others.
In fact, all of the people I know directly that have an EV, definitely chose it without any real environmental considerations. Sure... It's nice they are a decent step greener than ICE... But it's definitely the speed, silence and convenience of EV that got them to order one.
There's a weird perception that people want an EV chiefly to be 'green', but I think thats mostly not the case in reality. Most people want the car they want, whatever they might feel about environmental issues.
But why do these people assume that EV drivers need telling that!? I've never met an EV driver that believes their car has zero carbon footprint or would pretend that way to others.
In fact, all of the people I know directly that have an EV, definitely chose it without any real environmental considerations. Sure... It's nice they are a decent step greener than ICE... But it's definitely the speed, silence and convenience of EV that got them to order one.
There's a weird perception that people want an EV chiefly to be 'green', but I think thats mostly not the case in reality. Most people want the car they want, whatever they might feel about environmental issues.
There seems to be an assumption that we drive them due to a wish to virtue signal our 'green credentials'.
Personally I just prefer both the EV drivetrain and the ability to charge at home for a daily duty vehicle and have no interest i going back to ICE. If it was no greener than a diesel and cost just as much to fuel I'd still come to the same conclusion.
Personally I just prefer both the EV drivetrain and the ability to charge at home for a daily duty vehicle and have no interest i going back to ICE. If it was no greener than a diesel and cost just as much to fuel I'd still come to the same conclusion.
I don't agree. Most people buy them because they think they're green, and they're cheaper to run than an ICE, and they're not being legislated off the road.
And I say that as someone who's waiting in one turning up, because my better half wants on for all those reasons, and no argument will change her opinion.
I also say that as someone running a 5.7L V8.
And I say that as someone who's waiting in one turning up, because my better half wants on for all those reasons, and no argument will change her opinion.
I also say that as someone running a 5.7L V8.
They are not telling the EV driver they are telling themselves. It’s a common psychology with any kind of change that if you are against it then you identify as many blockers as you can and you make sure everyone knows what they are. It’s common in all changes. You will see it a lot in workplaces too when companies try and do something new. Even the basic change curve psychology references it with the denial and anger stages where in many cases the “anger” is manifested as that “what aboutism” that we often see.
People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
sociopath said:
I don't agree. Most people buy them because they think they're green, and they're cheaper to run than an ICE, and they're not being legislated off the road.
And I say that as someone who's waiting in one turning up, because my better half wants on for all those reasons, and no argument will change her opinion.
I also say that as someone running a 5.7L V8.
Case in point....LOLAnd I say that as someone who's waiting in one turning up, because my better half wants on for all those reasons, and no argument will change her opinion.
I also say that as someone running a 5.7L V8.
Many do I agree.
Not sure how many of them post on PH or are seriously considering a 4.7 V8 or 5.9 V12 as a perfect companion for their EV though.
Not sure how many of them post on PH or are seriously considering a 4.7 V8 or 5.9 V12 as a perfect companion for their EV though.
craigjm said:
They are not telling the EV driver they are telling themselves. It’s a common psychology with any kind of change that if you are against it then you identify as many blockers as you can and you make sure everyone knows what they are. It’s common in all changes. You will see it a lot in workplaces too when companies try and do something new. Even the basic change curve psychology references it with the denial and anger stages where in many cases the “anger” is manifested as that “what aboutism” that we often see.
People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
sociopath said:
I don't agree. Most people buy them because they think they're green, and they're cheaper to run than an ICE, and they're not being legislated off the road.
And I say that as someone who's waiting in one turning up, because my better half wants on for all those reasons, and no argument will change her opinion.
I also say that as someone running a 5.7L V8.
Whilst I don't doubt that is what your better half is motivated by - they don't necessarily represent the majority. In my circle of friends there are 4 of us with an EV now, and none of them or their other halves ever mention green. It's just fast, easy, smooth and cheap transport.And I say that as someone who's waiting in one turning up, because my better half wants on for all those reasons, and no argument will change her opinion.
I also say that as someone running a 5.7L V8.
Actually I think as we go into winter, the most common thing talked about us the ability to pre warm or even defrost the car remotely!
dvs_dave said:
sociopath said:
I don't agree. Most people buy them because they think they're green, and they're cheaper to run than an ICE, and they're not being legislated off the road.
And I say that as someone who's waiting in one turning up, because my better half wants on for all those reasons, and no argument will change her opinion.
I also say that as someone running a 5.7L V8.
Case in point....LOLAnd I say that as someone who's waiting in one turning up, because my better half wants on for all those reasons, and no argument will change her opinion.
I also say that as someone running a 5.7L V8.
craigjm said:
They are not telling the EV driver they are telling themselves. It’s a common psychology with any kind of change that if you are against it then you identify as many blockers as you can and you make sure everyone knows what they are. It’s common in all changes. You will see it a lot in workplaces too when companies try and do something new. Even the basic change curve psychology references it with the denial and anger stages where in many cases the “anger” is manifested as that “what aboutism” that we often see.
People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
Nicely put and I agree. They're telling themselves.People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
Although 'they' will obviously arrive at this thread very soon to explain that isn't the case at all
craigjm said:
They are not telling the EV driver they are telling themselves. It’s a common psychology with any kind of change that if you are against it then you identify as many blockers as you can and you make sure everyone knows what they are. It’s common in all changes. You will see it a lot in workplaces too when companies try and do something new. Even the basic change curve psychology references it with the denial and anger stages where in many cases the “anger” is manifested as that “what aboutism” that we often see.
People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
Interesting viewpoint. As a petrolhead I only talk about cars with people who have who have shown an interest. I have plenty of close friends who don't care about cars who have no idea that I view cars as more than a means of transport and have no idea what cars I have.People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
In contrast, I have a number of friends who own electric cars who bring up this fact at any given opportunity.
It seems a tad idiotic to force everyone to change their cars and/or pile massive incentives into the market if EVs aren’t actually better for the world so it is perhaps a reasonable question. I’m sure nobody has any problems with choice but if EVs aren’t delivering on emissions reductions then let’s kill or reduce the incentives. I’m sure that’s coming soon enough anyhow as the current setup isn’t sustainable (if you excuse the pun) beyond early adopters.
survivalist said:
craigjm said:
They are not telling the EV driver they are telling themselves. It’s a common psychology with any kind of change that if you are against it then you identify as many blockers as you can and you make sure everyone knows what they are. It’s common in all changes. You will see it a lot in workplaces too when companies try and do something new. Even the basic change curve psychology references it with the denial and anger stages where in many cases the “anger” is manifested as that “what aboutism” that we often see.
People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
Interesting viewpoint. As a petrolhead I only talk about cars with people who have who have shown an interest. I have plenty of close friends who don't care about cars who have no idea that I view cars as more than a means of transport and have no idea what cars I have.People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
In contrast, I have a number of friends who own electric cars who bring up this fact at any given opportunity.
Outside friends, I also occasionally seem to get dragged in to a conversation if I happen to park next to another EV and the driver returns to their car as I climb out! Again, It's very rare the few comments we exchange have anything to do with saving the planet! It's almost always about how much more pleasant the drive is etc etc
TheDeuce said:
survivalist said:
craigjm said:
They are not telling the EV driver they are telling themselves. It’s a common psychology with any kind of change that if you are against it then you identify as many blockers as you can and you make sure everyone knows what they are. It’s common in all changes. You will see it a lot in workplaces too when companies try and do something new. Even the basic change curve psychology references it with the denial and anger stages where in many cases the “anger” is manifested as that “what aboutism” that we often see.
People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
Interesting viewpoint. As a petrolhead I only talk about cars with people who have who have shown an interest. I have plenty of close friends who don't care about cars who have no idea that I view cars as more than a means of transport and have no idea what cars I have.People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.
In contrast, I have a number of friends who own electric cars who bring up this fact at any given opportunity.
Outside friends, I also occasionally seem to get dragged in to a conversation if I happen to park next to another EV and the driver returns to their car as I climb out! Again, It's very rare the few comments we exchange have anything to do with saving the planet! It's almost always about how much more pleasant the drive is etc etc
An electric car would make a lot of sense for 80% of our journeys, but sorting our cars that I can't get excited about stay pretty low on the to do list. Sure i'l get around to it eventually.
DMZ said:
It seems a tad idiotic to force everyone to change their cars and/or pile massive incentives into the market if EVs aren’t actually better for the world so it is perhaps a reasonable question. I’m sure nobody has any problems with choice but if EVs aren’t delivering on emissions reductions then let’s kill or reduce the incentives. I’m sure that’s coming soon enough anyhow as the current setup isn’t sustainable (if you excuse the pun) beyond early adopters.
EVs are better overall. That's why it's being pushed.That's not the point of the post at all though. It's not about people asking a question... It's about people constantly jumping up to tell EV drivers that the cars aren't as green as we think they are.. but why do they think we think that way in the first place!?
It's great that they're cleaner than ICE in the long run, but that's a nice to have extra benefit for most owners. Surely on PH it's more relevant that in very recent history you had to buy a Rolls Royce to get a car as smooth and quiet and a supercar to get one so quick off the line. That should be the PH headline, not economy...
It's hard to not feel that the economy issue is pushed in part by misguided posters that don't understand there are genuinely more exciting reasons for a car fan to choose EV.
TheDeuce said:
DMZ said:
It seems a tad idiotic to force everyone to change their cars and/or pile massive incentives into the market if EVs aren’t actually better for the world so it is perhaps a reasonable question. I’m sure nobody has any problems with choice but if EVs aren’t delivering on emissions reductions then let’s kill or reduce the incentives. I’m sure that’s coming soon enough anyhow as the current setup isn’t sustainable (if you excuse the pun) beyond early adopters.
EVs are better overall. That's why it's being pushed.That's not the point of the post at all though. It's not about people asking a question... It's about people constantly jumping up to tell EV drivers that the cars aren't as green as we think they are.. but why do they think we think that way in the first place!?
It's great that they're cleaner than ICE in the long run, but that's a nice to have extra benefit for most owners. Surely on PH it's more relevant that in very recent history you had to buy a Rolls Royce to get a car as smooth and quiet and a supercar to get one so quick off the line. That should be the PH headline, not economy...
It's hard to not feel that the economy issue is pushed in part by misguided posters that don't understand there are genuinely more exciting reasons for a car fan to choose EV.
SWoll said:
There seems to be an assumption that we drive them due to a wish to virtue signal our 'green credentials'.
Personally I just prefer both the EV drivetrain and the ability to charge at home for a daily duty vehicle and have no interest i going back to ICE. If it was no greener than a diesel and cost just as much to fuel I'd still come to the same conclusion.
Don't forget the green number plates. Also virtue signalling according to various sages. I agree with you, they're just better everyday cars for most people, only most people haven't realised yet.Personally I just prefer both the EV drivetrain and the ability to charge at home for a daily duty vehicle and have no interest i going back to ICE. If it was no greener than a diesel and cost just as much to fuel I'd still come to the same conclusion.
survivalist said:
You may be right. Maybe I'm a massive cynic, but I'm about as excited about an electric car as I am about a 1.6 Nissan Juke or an iPhone 13. They are all just commodity items.
An electric car would make a lot of sense for 80% of our journeys, but sorting our cars that I can't get excited about stay pretty low on the to do list. Sure i'l get around to it eventually.
What we have to remember is that a good 85% of drivers don’t care about fun or excitement as the car is just a tool. Once you can get the family hatch size car to 400 mile range and an hour to charge to full people will swap jo bother as they generally don’t care what is powering their car or through what wheels etc.An electric car would make a lot of sense for 80% of our journeys, but sorting our cars that I can't get excited about stay pretty low on the to do list. Sure i'l get around to it eventually.
Like with any new technology the early adopters are generally technology geeks which is why when the superchargers started appearing at services the people standing around looked like all the kids you would have bullied at school.
I can understand people being reticent to buy one at the moment; I don’t have one myself, but the outright hostility you see from some is just comical.
survivalist said:
TheDeuce said:
DMZ said:
It seems a tad idiotic to force everyone to change their cars and/or pile massive incentives into the market if EVs aren’t actually better for the world so it is perhaps a reasonable question. I’m sure nobody has any problems with choice but if EVs aren’t delivering on emissions reductions then let’s kill or reduce the incentives. I’m sure that’s coming soon enough anyhow as the current setup isn’t sustainable (if you excuse the pun) beyond early adopters.
EVs are better overall. That's why it's being pushed.That's not the point of the post at all though. It's not about people asking a question... It's about people constantly jumping up to tell EV drivers that the cars aren't as green as we think they are.. but why do they think we think that way in the first place!?
It's great that they're cleaner than ICE in the long run, but that's a nice to have extra benefit for most owners. Surely on PH it's more relevant that in very recent history you had to buy a Rolls Royce to get a car as smooth and quiet and a supercar to get one so quick off the line. That should be the PH headline, not economy...
It's hard to not feel that the economy issue is pushed in part by misguided posters that don't understand there are genuinely more exciting reasons for a car fan to choose EV.
Also less complex, less to go wrong, cheaper to service and capable of pre-heating/cooling ahead of you climbing inside.
That's it I think... the only other benefit I guess is home charging Vs going to another place to fill up. Actually there's also the benefit of a better layout because no engine or drivetrain to package. Also the brakes last about four times longer too. Also they smell better and don't concentrate pollution in town centres.
And torque figures that often exceed 1000nm with zero throttle delay. That's fairly exciting - certainly makes overtaking very safe and satisfying
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