Why are ICE drivers obsessed with EV efficiency?

[DMZ]

TheDeuce said:

EVs are better overall. That's why it's being pushed.

That's not the point of the post at all though. It's not about people asking a question... It's about people constantly jumping up to tell EV drivers that the cars aren't as green as we think they are.. but why do they think we think that way in the first place!?

It's great that they're cleaner than ICE in the long run, but that's a nice to have extra benefit for most owners. Surely on PH it's more relevant that in very recent history you had to buy a Rolls Royce to get a car as smooth and quiet and a supercar to get one so quick off the line. That should be the PH headline, not economy...

It's hard to not feel that the economy issue is pushed in part by misguided posters that don't understand there are genuinely more exciting reasons for a car fan to choose EV.

I’m not sure what the point of your post was tbh but I’m explaining why people who are funding EV subsidies and looking at future bans question the reason for doing so. I think you called it “efficiency” as per the title? I don’t think anyone is suggesting that you can’t or shouldn’t buy an EV if that’s your preference and if EVs are a bit better for the environment then great. Of course many people prefer ICE for a host of reasons but that’s their prerogative. I certainly would have absolutely no objection if all the diesel cross-overs and similar appliances switched to electric.

[Jasey_]

I think a better question is why EV drivers give a flying fk what anyone thinks about them.

[page3]

Jasey_ said:

I think a better question is why EV drivers give a flying fk what anyone thinks about them.

Probably because ICE owners take every opportunity to tell us why our decision was wrong.

[RicksAlfas]

TheDeuce said:

There's a weird perception that people want an EV chiefly to be 'green', but I think thats mostly not the case in reality. Most people want the car they want, whatever they might feel about environmental issues.

People want the car they want - but in a few years they will only be able to buy an EV, so their choice is being removed. Their choice is being removed because they are told EVs are "greener". If they don't agree with that concept, can't you see they might be a bit miffed their choice is being removed and will want to question it?

[Jasey_]

page3 said:

Jasey_ said:

I think a better question is why EV drivers give a flying fk what anyone thinks about them.

Probably because ICE owners take every opportunity to tell us why our decision was wrong.

tell them to fk off.

Get on with enjoying your milk float .

[so called]

SWoll said:

Many do I agree.

Not sure how many of them post on PH or are seriously considering a 4.7 V8 or 5.9 V12 as a perfect companion for their EV though.

craigjm said:

They are not telling the EV driver they are telling themselves. It’s a common psychology with any kind of change that if you are against it then you identify as many blockers as you can and you make sure everyone knows what they are. It’s common in all changes. You will see it a lot in workplaces too when companies try and do something new. Even the basic change curve psychology references it with the denial and anger stages where in many cases the “anger” is manifested as that “what aboutism” that we often see.

People who are anti electric cars are becoming as likely as a vegan to tell you their stance soon after you meet them. I personally don’t know why people waste the energy. Nobody is going to be forced out of their ice car if they don’t want to be.

My Ioniq 5's companion is a 4lt straight 6 Tuscan, does that count.

[craigjm]

RicksAlfas said:

TheDeuce said:

There's a weird perception that people want an EV chiefly to be 'green', but I think thats mostly not the case in reality. Most people want the car they want, whatever they might feel about environmental issues.

People want the car they want - but in a few years they will only be able to buy an EV, so their choice is being removed. Their choice is being removed because they are told EVs are "greener". If they don't agree with that concept, can't you see they might be a bit miffed their choice is being removed and will want to question it?

Who is saying that EV's are greener though and how are they saying it? The drive behind EV is cleaner air where we live. This is not about being green and nobody as far as I know is saying that making them is green. Sure there will be a long term impact if the power they use can come purely from renewables at some point but anyone who buys one "because green" is a chump surely and no official messages are really pushing that.

[soupdragon1]

I think clean air in urban areas is the biggest EV win.

We're not saving the planet with EVs. Thats a sleight on hand from Govts avoiding the elephant in the room

25% of emissions are from our food consumption. EVs would just be icing on the cake for global emissions reduction. Just a shame that there is no cake.

For transport, we need to be green on how we source energy 1st, not how we consume it. Apart from Norway, the world has got this basic sequence back to front

I drive an EV, but its powered by coal and gas. I'm not saving no damn planet right now. Bit of a joke this whole thing to be honest.

[Dave Hedgehog]

page3 said:

Jasey_ said:

I think a better question is why EV drivers give a flying fk what anyone thinks about them.

Probably because ICE owners take every opportunity to tell us why our decision was wrong.

normally backed up with utter bullst 'facts'

[Jasey_]

https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/electric-cars-g...

"In fact, rapidly switching from fossil fuelled cars and vans to electric vehicles is one of the most important things the government can do for the climate."

[Dave Hedgehog]

soupdragon1 said:

We're not saving the planet with EVs. Thats a sleight on hand from Govts avoiding the elephant in the room

What EVs do for many people is start the discussion on being more resource efficient, many will research green tarrifs, look at the whole energy cycle, solar and batteries, making your home more efficient and so on

I have reduced my gas bill by 60% by installing hive with digital rad valves

EVs are a good starting point for net zero

[aestetix1]

Guilt, I assume.

[coetzeeh]

wyson said:

Most of the EV drivers I know got one for their low BiK rate, said their car would be unaffordable otherwise.

Edited by wyson on Thursday 9th December 23:32

This

[LukeBrown66]

For me and the people I know, EV's are a lifestyle choice, just like an IMAC or a certain brand of furniture, they look good, make them look aware and also good and geeky.

They only suit certain sections of the community at the moment, namely those with a bit more money, but as with most things they spend the most, do all the dirty work so that those of us with a bit more patience and less easily disposable wealth can get them when they work better lol!

[craigjm]

soupdragon1 said:

I think clean air in urban areas is the biggest EV win

I drive an EV, but its powered by coal and gas. I'm not saving no damn planet right now. Bit of a joke this whole thing to be honest.

Yep clean air is the win and at least with electricity there is more efficiency in that power burn rather than millions of tiny generators travelling around burning a fuel that uses electricity to make it in the first place.

Whether EV really becomes the standard will depend on the pace of development of synthetic fuels and / or hydrogen but both need to be just as efficient and “clean”

[annodomini2]

craigjm said:

soupdragon1 said:

I think clean air in urban areas is the biggest EV win

I drive an EV, but its powered by coal and gas. I'm not saving no damn planet right now. Bit of a joke this whole thing to be honest.

Yep clean air is the win and at least with electricity there is more efficiency in that power burn rather than millions of tiny generators travelling around burning a fuel that uses electricity to make it in the first place.

Whether EV really becomes the standard will depend on the pace of development of synthetic fuels and / or hydrogen but both need to be just as efficient and “clean”

If the target is efficiency, a BEV is approximately 3x more thermally efficient, at point of use, than an ICE car (oil or synthetic) and Hydrogen fuel cell, Hydrogen ICE is significantly less efficient.

This is not going to change, it's physics.

So if operating personal vehicles contributed 10% (example, I don't know the precise figures) to a countries carbon emissions and could use 100% carbon free electricity (I know ) and replace every vehicle with a BEV, you'd reduce your carbon emissions by 10%.

This is what those making the decisions generally observe.

Some will agree and disagree with this and that's their choice, but for legislators where they are mandated to reduce emissions, it's a compelling choice.

[SWoll]

coetzeeh said:

wyson said:

Most of the EV drivers I know got one for their low BiK rate, said their car would be unaffordable otherwise.

Edited by wyson on Thursday 9th December 23:32

This

That's business lease/salary sacrifice companies hiking their prices in the knowledge that many end users will be able to take advantage of the BIK saving. A Model 3 SR+ for example is no more expensive to buy or personal lease than a decent spec BMW 320D (£42k, £550 a month) and plenty of those on the road over the past decade despite high BIK and fuel prices.

[wyson]

SWoll said:

That's business lease/salary sacrifice companies hiking their prices in the knowledge that many end users will be able to take advantage of the BIK saving. A Model 3 SR+ for example is no more expensive to buy or personal lease than a decent spec BMW 320D (£42k, £550 a month) and plenty of those on the road over the past decade despite high BIK and fuel prices.

My mate got a Tesla Model 3 Long Range through his company. Plus ‘free’ fuel. He got some free supercharger usage too. He said it was a no brainer, similar monthly price as the low spec Audi Q2 he was leasing previously. He is a 45% rate tax payer so makes a huge difference paying 1% tax on his car payments, in lieu of the 40% tax he pays on the majority of his salary.

Same reason why the Taycan has taken over from the Macan as Porsche’s best ‘selling’ model, and the reason why I’m thinking very seriously about leasing an electric car rather than buying a petrol model outright.

Edited by wyson on Friday 10th December 12:51

[SWoll]

wyson said:

My mate got a Tesla Model 3 Long Range through his company. Plus ‘free’ fuel. He got some free supercharger usage too. He said it was a no brainer, similar monthly price as the low spec Audi Q2 he was leasing previously. He is a 45% rate tax payer so makes a huge difference paying 1% tax on his car payments, in lieu of the 40% tax he pays on the majority of his salary.

Same reason why the Taycan has taken over from the Macan as Porsche’s best ‘selling’ model, and the reason why I’m thinking very seriously about leasing an electric car rather than buying a petrol model outright.

Edited by wyson on Friday 10th December 12:51

Makes sense as he'll of been paying £300 or so a month in BIK on the Q2. The thing is the Model 3 LR isn't £300 more a month to lease than an average Q2, more like £150-200, so should actually be quite a bit cheaper at 1% BIK if the price wasn't being inflated.

Ref the Taycan etc. leasing costs have gone through the roof in the past 12 months, same goes for the Model 3 Performance. 3 year/36k deals on a Taycan 4s 93kWh worth £89k are sitting around £50k, or almost 60% which is ridiculous, but they get away with it as the end user see's the cost with the tax saving.

Edited by SWoll on Friday 10th December 13:04

[DodgyGeezer]

ok I'll bite.

I want a car that gives me a 350-550 mile range and a 5 minute refuel for another 350-550 (I'm ignoring diesels in this scenario). No, I don't often do these sorts of trips but when I want to do one I want to be able to on the spur of the moment with little planning. I know that there are those who'll say "...ahhh but you'll need a toilet break after 2 hours anyway..." really? How bad is your bladder control that you can't go more than 2 hours without a pee? I'll agree if you have young children or the elderly with you this is more of an issue - however we're talking about MY needs/wants.

I like my fun car to make a noise (yes, I'm an overgrown child) and an electric car doesn't (one of its USPs). I am concerned about an evolutionary dead-end for BEV (like diesel was pushed HARD by governments), yes I am aware that ICE is now a dead-end (one could argue that since it's dependent upon finite resources it's always been a dead-end). Cost is, inevitably, an issue - though again I'll happily admit that the first electric cars (like the first cars full stop) will be pitched at the higher earners and it does appear that 'cheaper' (not not cheap) family and sports cars are en-route.

The above being said I do like the packaging of electric cars - seems quite neat. I'll need to get used to the idea of allowing extra time to recharge en-route (providing we're allowed to travel outside our region by future green diktats <scurry away to find my tinfoil hat>), I'll need to get used to allowing for a noticeably reduced range in winter (all of which will, hopefully, change as the tech improves).