Why are ICE drivers obsessed with EV efficiency?
Discussion
DodgyGeezer said:
(all of which will, hopefully, change as the tech improves).
This is the crux of it really. All new technology has its drawbacks when it’s new and it gets better over time. In reality you will be able to buy hybrid cars until 2035 so in reality electric cars (or anything else) still has pretty much 15 years to move on. By this time a 400 mile range from a. Quick charge is probably a reality for a family sized car. All of the “negatives” can move on quite a lot in that time including more chargers, faster chargers, better batteries etc. Anyone using the “what about the kids down the mine argument” need to look into every component of current cars and apply the same argument and they would probably end up walking. The biggest issue is the used market. A car needs a good 15 years lifespan and I can’t think of any other electrical product with that requirement which is sold on to second users. Most people sell their phones etc at 2 years old but at some point they end up in drawers and landfill rather than being passed down and down. There isn’t anywhere near the shed market for used tech that there is for cars. I guess these people will be holding onto ice and then in 2045-50 we might see a shed EV market appear properly.
wyson said:
Most of the EV drivers I know got one for their low BiK rate, said their car would be unaffordable otherwise.
Nail Edited by wyson on Thursday 9th December 23:32
Coffin
I wouldn't be looking at an EV car by default, but the cost differential puts it on the radar.
Add to that the ease of use and it becomes more compelling.
Range is an issue and one that the mrs brings up - but considering 99% of our journeys are within the quoted range, that was put to bed.
DodgyGeezer said:
I am concerned about an evolutionary dead-end for BEV.
The thing though however is that a BEV is primarily an EV, ie it runs on electricity, and it is 100% agnostic to the source or storage medium for that 'lecy.An ICE requires an incredibly complex system of mechanical contrivances to leverage the energy in it's liquid fuel and to produce useful work, ie to drive the car down the road. This is why you really won't ever see a modern engine transplanted into an older car (other than for high performance reasons of course), because the change is too hard, too expensive, too complex. So when say an EU5 diesel is banned it gets scrapped, it is obsolete.
But this is not the case for a BEV. Gen1 leafs and the like are already being "re-batteried" by aftermarket specalists, and things likeTesla powertrains are being dropped into everything from an old Landrover to a Delorian, precisely because it is so easy to do. This, imo, makes a BEV incredibly robust to any future energy storage improvements. Heck, should someone invent a Mr Fusion device, there is no reason you couldn't buy a 2012 leaf, recycle the battery, install the MrFusion and drive around for 2,000 miles powered by a banna skin and potatoe pealings :-)
coetzeeh said:
Most of the EV drivers I know got one for their low BiK rate, said their car would be unaffordable otherwise.
undoubtedly the case for a large number of inital BEV buyers. What is also the case is that these same owner drivers, once they have actually driven on for a while most typically come fairly quickly to appreciate the numerous other advantages, and often their second BEV purchase, or their advice to other people thinking of getting an BEV is "just buy one".Ive driven BEV for 6 years now. In the few first years most people would wonder and ask why i drove an EV, these days i'd say over 50% of people i know are now at the least saying "we will look at a BEV for our next car"
craigjm said:
RicksAlfas said:
TheDeuce said:
There's a weird perception that people want an EV chiefly to be 'green', but I think thats mostly not the case in reality. Most people want the car they want, whatever they might feel about environmental issues.
People want the car they want - but in a few years they will only be able to buy an EV, so their choice is being removed. Their choice is being removed because they are told EVs are "greener". If they don't agree with that concept, can't you see they might be a bit miffed their choice is being removed and will want to question it? But what you don't need to do is make an assumption that EV is all about green and/or that all EV drivers care about green credentials or especially that EV drivers believe their cars are 100% green - because I don't think anyone believes that.
TheDeuce said:
I swear there's hardly a thread in the EV section of the forums which doesn't at some point involve a non EV driver pointing out that EV's aren't actually totally clean. Of course they're not, not even close.
But why do these people assume that EV drivers need telling that!? I've never met an EV driver that believes their car has zero carbon footprint or would pretend that way to others.
In fact, all of the people I know directly that have an EV, definitely chose it without any real environmental considerations. Sure... It's nice they are a decent step greener than ICE... But it's definitely the speed, silence and convenience of EV that got them to order one.
There's a weird perception that people want an EV chiefly to be 'green', but I think thats mostly not the case in reality. Most people want the car they want, whatever they might feel about environmental issues.
It's no different from any subject really in that the majority of people just sit happily in the middle and can objectively see the personal benefits of either and decide which is right for them at a particular moment in time but at either extremity are extremist loons. On one side you have idiots who devoutly believe that an EV makes them a better human and take every opportunity to announce this immense insecurity and need for chattels to define their existence to anyone who is within earshot, while in the other side of the loony coin are the extremists who see the EV as a threat to their human rights and believe that someone is forcing them to buy something they don't want. But why do these people assume that EV drivers need telling that!? I've never met an EV driver that believes their car has zero carbon footprint or would pretend that way to others.
In fact, all of the people I know directly that have an EV, definitely chose it without any real environmental considerations. Sure... It's nice they are a decent step greener than ICE... But it's definitely the speed, silence and convenience of EV that got them to order one.
There's a weird perception that people want an EV chiefly to be 'green', but I think thats mostly not the case in reality. Most people want the car they want, whatever they might feel about environmental issues.
On PH we are more likely to get people who have bought or plan to buy an EV because the currently limited merits of the product happen to align with their usage but go to other platforms and you do seem to find more people claiming that they've made an immense sacrifice for the whole of humanity along with 69 year olds who will never have to drive an EV being angry because an imaginary force is ordering them to use one.
However, money has played a very significant role in all of this. If EVs had appeared on day 1 as cheaper to buy than traditional cars then the entire atmosphere would be very different. You wouldn't have had apex shoppers rushing to get the premium chattel on their driveway or the ire of those who couldn't afford that chattel. The top down nature of the product has had a big negative impact in a country such as the U.K. where so many people define their perceived standing on the back of synthesised wealth.
Large amounts of the silliness on either side will naturally evaporate over this decade as more cheaper EVs appear, more people have them and they cease to be anything special just another type of car.
DodgyGeezer said:
I am concerned about an evolutionary dead-end for BEV.
It's not the electric motor that is the evolutionary dead end. It is so superior to a combustion engine that it is here to stay and eventually replace all combustion engines. The evolutionary dead end is the Li battery. That will be surpassed as rapidly as mankind can deliver an alternative but the EV is very much here to stay until teleporting or personal drones take over long after we are all dead.
LukeBrown66 said:
But the point is I think a lot of people only buy an EV to be seen as cool, not green!
There's obviously some of that, especially in the early days. But today I think you can see the change away from that as few of the newer EVs are cool but rather just generic transport boxes from generic brands. In 2021 I do feel that EVs have taken their first step to being just vanilla transport options. I remember years ago being blown away by the thinking of a chap in the office who was obsessed, when it snowed, with removing every bit of snow from his car as he was convinced that when he drove in to the office car park everyone would think he owned a house with a garage!! It was insane to me but I subsequently learned that he wasn't alone and that there were others in Essex who were doing this. That very weird discovery ensures me that there will be blokes in the U.K. who have bought EVs so that others apparently think they own a driveway. Over the years I have consistently underestimated the utter lunacy of the male grooming obsessive and man bangle officianado!!
DonkeyApple said:
There's obviously some of that, especially in the early days. But today I think you can see the change away from that as few of the newer EVs are cool but rather just generic transport boxes from generic brands. In 2021 I do feel that EVs have taken their first step to being just vanilla transport options.
I remember years ago being blown away by the thinking of a chap in the office who was obsessed, when it snowed, with removing every bit of snow from his car as he was convinced that when he drove in to the office car park everyone would think he owned a house with a garage!! It was insane to me but I subsequently learned that he wasn't alone and that there were others in Essex who were doing this. That very weird discovery ensures me that there will be blokes in the U.K. who have bought EVs so that others apparently think they own a driveway. Over the years I have consistently underestimated the utter lunacy of the male grooming obsessive and man bangle officianado!!
Well that's sure to be the most incredible insight into the human psyche that I'll see this weekend!I remember years ago being blown away by the thinking of a chap in the office who was obsessed, when it snowed, with removing every bit of snow from his car as he was convinced that when he drove in to the office car park everyone would think he owned a house with a garage!! It was insane to me but I subsequently learned that he wasn't alone and that there were others in Essex who were doing this. That very weird discovery ensures me that there will be blokes in the U.K. who have bought EVs so that others apparently think they own a driveway. Over the years I have consistently underestimated the utter lunacy of the male grooming obsessive and man bangle officianado!!
The mind boggles lol
TheDeuce said:
I swear there's hardly a thread in the EV section of the forums which doesn't at some point involve a non EV driver pointing out that EV's aren't actually totally clean. Of course they're not, not even close.
But why do these people assume that EV drivers need telling that!? I've never met an EV driver that believes their car has zero carbon footprint or would pretend that way to others.
In fact, all of the people I know directly that have an EV, definitely chose it without any real environmental considerations. Sure... It's nice they are a decent step greener than ICE... But it's definitely the speed, silence and convenience of EV that got them to order one.
There's a weird perception that people want an EV chiefly to be 'green', but I think thats mostly not the case in reality. Most people want the car they want, whatever they might feel about environmental issues.
Because they are subsidising your purchase and VED and ULEZ “congestion charges”. But why do these people assume that EV drivers need telling that!? I've never met an EV driver that believes their car has zero carbon footprint or would pretend that way to others.
In fact, all of the people I know directly that have an EV, definitely chose it without any real environmental considerations. Sure... It's nice they are a decent step greener than ICE... But it's definitely the speed, silence and convenience of EV that got them to order one.
There's a weird perception that people want an EV chiefly to be 'green', but I think thats mostly not the case in reality. Most people want the car they want, whatever they might feel about environmental issues.
Also many don’t think electric is the best solution & mining for some of the battery components is devastating to those areas.
Electric simply doesn’t work for anything bigger than a car - truck JCB ships planes etc simply will not work on electric propulsion.
I guess one indicator of the owner's attitude is whether they opt for the green flash on the number plate?
Afaik, there's no reason to have it other than advertising that they have an EV.
Reminds me of all the old status trinkets like go-faster stripes, "GT" badges and even the vinyl roof! (Showing my age!)
Afaik, there's no reason to have it other than advertising that they have an EV.
Reminds me of all the old status trinkets like go-faster stripes, "GT" badges and even the vinyl roof! (Showing my age!)
Mikehig said:
I guess one indicator of the owner's attitude is whether they opt for the green flash on the number plate?
Afaik, there's no reason to have it other than advertising that they have an EV.
Reminds me of all the old status trinkets like go-faster stripes, "GT" badges and even the vinyl roof! (Showing my age!)
I think you're projecting. Mine came with the green plates and I wasn't asked. If asked I wouldn't have cared, I'm as uninterested in the colour of my plates as I am in the combination of letters and numbers on them.Afaik, there's no reason to have it other than advertising that they have an EV.
Reminds me of all the old status trinkets like go-faster stripes, "GT" badges and even the vinyl roof! (Showing my age!)
Scrimpton said:
I think you're projecting. Mine came with the green plates and I wasn't asked. If asked I wouldn't have cared, I'm as uninterested in the colour of my plates as I am in the combination of letters and numbers on them.
My old Leaf doesn't have one I haven't bothered "upgrading". All the Facebook group Leaf owners who upgraded their DRL's to LED have probably done it. I have ordered a new MG ZS ev, the one that has a range of 250 miles+ and it will be amazing to have an ev that is usable. This will come with a green plate and like Scrimpton I couldn't give a monkeys, hopefully I will just merge into the background as they become more popular. DonkeyApple said:
Made several well balanced observations
I've also ordered an EV after over 10yrs in a hybrid because as has been stated previously by others it fits our usage (and financial circumstances) pefectly, love the smooth silent running too. I'll not be having the green plate either simply because I think it looks crap. Regarding the must show everyone that I have a garage observation, the majority of houses nearby that have double garages don't actually have cars in them. This annoys me unreasonably.
They drive off with a foot of snow still on them too...
Scrimpton said:
Mikehig said:
I guess one indicator of the owner's attitude is whether they opt for the green flash on the number plate?
Afaik, there's no reason to have it other than advertising that they have an EV.
Reminds me of all the old status trinkets like go-faster stripes, "GT" badges and even the vinyl roof! (Showing my age!)
I think you're projecting. Mine came with the green plates and I wasn't asked. If asked I wouldn't have cared, I'm as uninterested in the colour of my plates as I am in the combination of letters and numbers on them.Afaik, there's no reason to have it other than advertising that they have an EV.
Reminds me of all the old status trinkets like go-faster stripes, "GT" badges and even the vinyl roof! (Showing my age!)
I thought they were an option that had to be requested, after being asked if I wanted the GB logo (now changed to UK) the last time I bought a car.
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