green charging - refuel at a garden centre :-)
Discussion
There'll be a short lived rush of fitting these before it peters out.
They don't add a huge amount of range unless you stay longer than you really want to so you'd be better off charging at home. As pointed out above, vehicles are unlikely to be near the limit of their range so charging isn't a requirement. Once you've accepted that then it's nothing more than an extra expense for the business that is either passed on to the customer or becomes a reduced profit margin. Before long they're either not repaired or removed outright.
They don't add a huge amount of range unless you stay longer than you really want to so you'd be better off charging at home. As pointed out above, vehicles are unlikely to be near the limit of their range so charging isn't a requirement. Once you've accepted that then it's nothing more than an extra expense for the business that is either passed on to the customer or becomes a reduced profit margin. Before long they're either not repaired or removed outright.
Maybe but I suspect you underestimate the British shopper's desire to not only waddle round a shopping venue for hours on end but their love of a freebie. You might not be able sell used toilet paper to a British pro shopper but tell them it's free and they'll stuff all the pockets as quickly as possible. Once they start getting EVs you'll have them fighting over plugs. 
Looked at our local large Tescos (online), they have four 7 kW chargers, I think they might need a few more 
Do people really think 7 kW chargers at supermarkets are of any use at all? I can't remember ever being in one for more than 20 minutes.
PS just as this is PH, our local Waitrose has no chargers at all.
For me, 7 kW chargers at shops are a total waste of time, what I need is a good motorway network of 150 kW units.
Do people really think 7 kW chargers at supermarkets are of any use at all? I can't remember ever being in one for more than 20 minutes.
PS just as this is PH, our local Waitrose has no chargers at all.
For me, 7 kW chargers at shops are a total waste of time, what I need is a good motorway network of 150 kW units.
TheRainMaker said:
Looked at our local large Tescos (online), they have four 7 kW chargers, I think they might need a few more
Do people really think 7 kW chargers at supermarkets are of any use at all? I can't remember ever being in one for more than 20 minutes.
PS just as this is PH, our local Waitrose has no chargers at all.
For me, 7 kW chargers at shops are a total waste of time, what I need is a good motorway network of 150 kW units.
I can't say they're much use usually, but I have occasionally used one set as destination chargers (no limit on parking time).Do people really think 7 kW chargers at supermarkets are of any use at all? I can't remember ever being in one for more than 20 minutes.
PS just as this is PH, our local Waitrose has no chargers at all.
For me, 7 kW chargers at shops are a total waste of time, what I need is a good motorway network of 150 kW units.
My local Tesco 7kW posts seem to have about 50% use.most of the time, everything from M3 to Kuga PHEV. The next nearest Tesco store seems to mostly have small Kia's parked in it...
They're more for the little lady of the house or the parents while the man tours the length and breadth of the motorway network doing man things. 
I wouldn't fanny about with a plug while doing any shopping. But nor would I bother doing a long journey that meant I had to go near a motorway services. The great freedom of an EV as far as I am concerned lies having one fewer ghastly place to have to go to. However, people in general just seem to love anything 'free' and the motorway services appear to be an essential element of the British holiday.
All these basic chargers at retailer car parks are being aimed at local people who move around locally and will just top up each time the stop to do a day to day chore. I suspect that the existence of nectar points highlights how many consumers can be steered via this basic principle?
I wouldn't fanny about with a plug while doing any shopping. But nor would I bother doing a long journey that meant I had to go near a motorway services. The great freedom of an EV as far as I am concerned lies having one fewer ghastly place to have to go to. However, people in general just seem to love anything 'free' and the motorway services appear to be an essential element of the British holiday.
All these basic chargers at retailer car parks are being aimed at local people who move around locally and will just top up each time the stop to do a day to day chore. I suspect that the existence of nectar points highlights how many consumers can be steered via this basic principle?
Fastlane said:
But hydrogen is literally everywhere, so obviously it must be the future....
To get 1 kilo of hydrogen by electrolysis of water at 100% efficiency takes about 40kW of electricity, and that's before adding the power to compress or refrigerate the hydrogen for storage. With that 1 kilo of hydrogen a fuel cell car can drive about 65 miles. Or you can just put that 40kW into an EV battery and travel about 150 miles.The numbers just don't add up for hydrogen.
Max_Torque said:
Expect to see much more of this sort of thing over the next couple of years:
https://365retail.co.uk/dobbies-garden-centres-rol...
ie destination charging, where private companies install charging infrastructure to leverage new customers into their premises.
Already seen it at a large posh farm shop place in Devon this year. Place was full of Teslas'.https://365retail.co.uk/dobbies-garden-centres-rol...
ie destination charging, where private companies install charging infrastructure to leverage new customers into their premises.
Also spotted the only Alpine A110 I've seen in the wild there, so not all bad.
I drive 2.4 miles to my local Tesco, don't rush my shopping, grab a coffee, drive home and finish with more battery than I started with.
I would go to the same Tesco whatever I was driving as it's my closest one.
What's not to like?
If / when i ever need to go to a garden centre, the same will apply.
I would go to the same Tesco whatever I was driving as it's my closest one.
What's not to like?
If / when i ever need to go to a garden centre, the same will apply.
I totally agree that the 7kw chargers at supermarkets aren’t particularly logical for the reasons outlined in the thread, but a lot of people don’t think logically. As an example some will drive further away and accept lower quality amenities when they get there to save a couple of quid on parking charges at a nearby city centre. A free charge at a supermarket will entice people in who will then proceed to pay over the knot for things because they travelled there “for free”.
Zarco said:
Already seen it at a large posh farm shop place in Devon this year. Place was full of Teslas'.
Also spotted the only Alpine A110 I've seen in the wild there, so not all bad.
Why sell 10p potatoes to the people when you can sell £10 eco pomme de terres to apex shoppers just by sticking some plug sockets in the car park? Also spotted the only Alpine A110 I've seen in the wild there, so not all bad.
We have Daylesford down the road that has had Tesla chargers for several years but the habitual users are now upset by the mass arrival of the budget, motobility M3 mob taking their 'special' parking places next to the disabled.
. They'll be back in Range Rovers that show how much tax they can pay now they've lost their premium parking for £100k cars to retired folk and blue buttons in cheap cars of the hooha from S and X owners down in Salcombe was anything to go by this summer. 
The press release is thin on detail. It does not use the word rapid, only the word fast, which to me suggests 7kW. Depending on who wrote the press release (and I think it it Dobbies not Gridserve) they could well think 7kW is high powered. I haven’t seen any definitive description indicating 50kW or more is being fitted
If the max is 7kW then I have no interest in it, though it may be useful for people who cannot charge at home. If they are putting in rapids or even better 100+ kW chargers then there are a few excellent locations they are places in to be useful to me
If the max is 7kW then I have no interest in it, though it may be useful for people who cannot charge at home. If they are putting in rapids or even better 100+ kW chargers then there are a few excellent locations they are places in to be useful to me
I think the fact that the first 30 Dobbies Garden Centres listed (I checked the locations of, Midlands and the South West) are either on Major A roads or within a few miles of a Motorway Junction suggests this is more than simply providing Granny with a few KW's when she buys a few pot plants.
I'd assume that Dobbies Car Park Rent is going to be lower than what Roadchef or Mota whatever they are called want for 12 charge bays?
The big question for me is weather they'd be available 24/7 365
The press release also states that they won't be free to use.
From the press release
This is a UK-first partnership between GRIDSERVE and a major garden centre retailer and will initially see 30 ‘Destination Electric Hubs’ installed in Dobbies’ car parks across the UK, from Aberdeen to Ashford, each containing up to 12 high power EV charge points with connectors that support all types of electric vehicles.
The state-of-the-art charging units will accept contactless payment, provide real-time usage updates to both the GRIDSERVE map and Zap-Map and will be powered exclusively by net zero carbon energy. They will also adopt GRIDSERVE’s highly competitive standard nationwide pricing, making it considerably cheaper to re-charge an EV than fill an equivalent vehicle with petrol or diesel.
I'd assume that Dobbies Car Park Rent is going to be lower than what Roadchef or Mota whatever they are called want for 12 charge bays?
The big question for me is weather they'd be available 24/7 365
The press release also states that they won't be free to use.
From the press release
This is a UK-first partnership between GRIDSERVE and a major garden centre retailer and will initially see 30 ‘Destination Electric Hubs’ installed in Dobbies’ car parks across the UK, from Aberdeen to Ashford, each containing up to 12 high power EV charge points with connectors that support all types of electric vehicles.
The state-of-the-art charging units will accept contactless payment, provide real-time usage updates to both the GRIDSERVE map and Zap-Map and will be powered exclusively by net zero carbon energy. They will also adopt GRIDSERVE’s highly competitive standard nationwide pricing, making it considerably cheaper to re-charge an EV than fill an equivalent vehicle with petrol or diesel.
That's another good point regarding how refuelling is simply going to adapt to the ubiquity of electricity. You already have people who will avoid motorway services on a long journey by heading a few miles off a junction to a nice country pub or for cheaper petrol. The assumption that EVs on a long journey can only refuel at the expensive and extremely limited in number plots of land right next to the motorway is highly erroneous. Every exit of every motorway will offer charging opportunities within a few miles of the motorway and EV users will simply filter off as and where they wish.
Pretty much anyone can become a fuel retailer. The barriers to entry being absolutely minimal.
Driving from London to the West Country, just stop at a laser quest in Reading for an hour or two and let the kids burn their energy up. There's a chap a village or so away from me that his pub sends customers to for charging on his driveway and the pub guests are just asked to leave him some money behind the bar.
We are just naturally going to evolve how we refuel without even thinking about twice about it and commerce will leap at the opportunity from the chap with a driveway next to a venue to car park owners and retail businesses all along every main road in the U.K.
It seems quite logical that within the next decade your phone or car will simply study your SatNav, study your current range and anticipated usage, study your shopping habits and simply prebook a charger and a venue on your behalf.
Humans won't tollerate waiting for a charger to become free nor will they want to speculatively drive off route in the hopes that a charger might be working and a table be available for lunch. What we see today is the stuff in its absolute infancy and we know that drivers on longer journeys will demand guarantees that the parking space is empty when they turn up, the charger working and that the venue has booked them in for whatever entertainment, whether it's food, shopping or a leisure activity.
There will be free chargers for local grazers who hop between shops and venues as part of their daily routine and more premium chargers for longer distance travellers who will pay a premium.
Places like Dobbies may cater for both. They clearly attract an older customer base where time has long since ceased to be relevant but where being made to feel special and loved is essential so a bit of free electricity for the casual shoppers is probably great business as the customer will be happy to buy another shortbread biscuit and another attempt at toilet before heading home for a well earned snooze. While others, travelling back from a nice day at the seaside, would love nothing more than parking in a gold membership, premium, special person parking bay and getting a fast, full refuel while looking at some plants and having a spot of food.
If I look at my own lifestyle, I go into London about once a week. The closest overland train is painfully slow and drops me into edge of West London at Paddington, so then involves ages on a tube. The next nearest overland is quicker but drops me into Marylebone which is even more remote. Driving straight in to Moorgate is now an act of lunacy as the traffic is mental and the side streets closed. As someone who has lived their life in a parochial part of Zone 2, the luxury has always been to walk to a quiet Z2 station and end up where I want to be without having to do any changes. It's just so much more simple. Yet today, I live 85 miles from the office. By far the nicer way for me to do the journey with an EV is to drive 75 miles to a prebooked parking space with charger on someone's private driveway, walk ten mins to Hampstead tube of Finchley Rd and be at the destination inside of 20 mins. Meanwhile, the EV would be pretty much fully charged upon my return. By using someone else's driveway I cut out clunky and unreliable overland trains, unnecessary tube changes and stops, eliminate tube failure risk due to alternatives, swerve petrol stations while enjoying the luxury of my own awesome company (or rather not inflicting it on other poor sods). And meanwhile, venues and destinations out here in the Cotswolds have been fitting chargers for years because the economy is built upon the loose purse strings of higher income punters from the UK's big cities and suburbs and these are the people switching to EVs first and even if their EV has a range of just 100 or so miles you want it to be able to transport a wallet from big suburbia to here for a battering. And few of these people want to be chilling at Beaconsfield or Oxford village of the damned services.
Pretty much anyone can become a fuel retailer. The barriers to entry being absolutely minimal.
Driving from London to the West Country, just stop at a laser quest in Reading for an hour or two and let the kids burn their energy up. There's a chap a village or so away from me that his pub sends customers to for charging on his driveway and the pub guests are just asked to leave him some money behind the bar.
We are just naturally going to evolve how we refuel without even thinking about twice about it and commerce will leap at the opportunity from the chap with a driveway next to a venue to car park owners and retail businesses all along every main road in the U.K.
It seems quite logical that within the next decade your phone or car will simply study your SatNav, study your current range and anticipated usage, study your shopping habits and simply prebook a charger and a venue on your behalf.
Humans won't tollerate waiting for a charger to become free nor will they want to speculatively drive off route in the hopes that a charger might be working and a table be available for lunch. What we see today is the stuff in its absolute infancy and we know that drivers on longer journeys will demand guarantees that the parking space is empty when they turn up, the charger working and that the venue has booked them in for whatever entertainment, whether it's food, shopping or a leisure activity.
There will be free chargers for local grazers who hop between shops and venues as part of their daily routine and more premium chargers for longer distance travellers who will pay a premium.
Places like Dobbies may cater for both. They clearly attract an older customer base where time has long since ceased to be relevant but where being made to feel special and loved is essential so a bit of free electricity for the casual shoppers is probably great business as the customer will be happy to buy another shortbread biscuit and another attempt at toilet before heading home for a well earned snooze. While others, travelling back from a nice day at the seaside, would love nothing more than parking in a gold membership, premium, special person parking bay and getting a fast, full refuel while looking at some plants and having a spot of food.
If I look at my own lifestyle, I go into London about once a week. The closest overland train is painfully slow and drops me into edge of West London at Paddington, so then involves ages on a tube. The next nearest overland is quicker but drops me into Marylebone which is even more remote. Driving straight in to Moorgate is now an act of lunacy as the traffic is mental and the side streets closed. As someone who has lived their life in a parochial part of Zone 2, the luxury has always been to walk to a quiet Z2 station and end up where I want to be without having to do any changes. It's just so much more simple. Yet today, I live 85 miles from the office. By far the nicer way for me to do the journey with an EV is to drive 75 miles to a prebooked parking space with charger on someone's private driveway, walk ten mins to Hampstead tube of Finchley Rd and be at the destination inside of 20 mins. Meanwhile, the EV would be pretty much fully charged upon my return. By using someone else's driveway I cut out clunky and unreliable overland trains, unnecessary tube changes and stops, eliminate tube failure risk due to alternatives, swerve petrol stations while enjoying the luxury of my own awesome company (or rather not inflicting it on other poor sods
). And meanwhile, venues and destinations out here in the Cotswolds have been fitting chargers for years because the economy is built upon the loose purse strings of higher income punters from the UK's big cities and suburbs and these are the people switching to EVs first and even if their EV has a range of just 100 or so miles you want it to be able to transport a wallet from big suburbia to here for a battering. And few of these people want to be chilling at Beaconsfield or Oxford village of the damned services. 
DonkeyApple said:
Pretty much anyone can become a fuel retailer. The barriers to entry being absolutely minimal.
^^^ this is a very interesting point!Today, the market dynamics of petrol retailing are driven by "cheapest is best" ie customers will happily drive a bit further to buy cheaper fuel, but there are only so many locations where you can install a fuel station because of the onerous requirements in handling large quanties of highly flamable liquids.
A battery charger is not in any way limited by those restrictions. This i suspect will indeed as you suggest change the game somewhat, especially as those chargers are starting off with internet connections meaning anyone can see the cost and status of a charger on their phone before physcially driving there.
Max_Torque said:
^^^ this is a very interesting point!
Today, the market dynamics of petrol retailing are driven by "cheapest is best" ie customers will happily drive a bit further to buy cheaper fuel, but there are only so many locations where you can install a fuel station because of the onerous requirements in handling large quanties of highly flamable liquids.
A battery charger is not in any way limited by those restrictions. This i suspect will indeed as you suggest change the game somewhat, especially as those chargers are starting off with internet connections meaning anyone can see the cost and status of a charger on their phone before physcially driving there.
I do think people are still expecting the round peg of EV fuelling to evolve into the square peg laid out over the last 100 years to facilitate the efficient movement of petrol vehicles where in reality while last decade that's how it started out with chargers being fitted at existing refuelling locations for longer journeys the reality is that there is absolutely no need for this or reason for this to be how it continues to evolve. EV refuelling can be anywhere there are humans and a sufficient business case and sometimes that business case will revolve around giving away fuel and at other's pricing it very high for convenience and customer turnover. Today, the market dynamics of petrol retailing are driven by "cheapest is best" ie customers will happily drive a bit further to buy cheaper fuel, but there are only so many locations where you can install a fuel station because of the onerous requirements in handling large quanties of highly flamable liquids.
A battery charger is not in any way limited by those restrictions. This i suspect will indeed as you suggest change the game somewhat, especially as those chargers are starting off with internet connections meaning anyone can see the cost and status of a charger on their phone before physcially driving there.
People discuss the issues of there not being a thousand chargers at a single location to cater for mass transits but that isn't the future. Nor can it be as you're not going to be able to get enough fuel to such a location and nor will the business case add up as it's sporadic, almost seasonal business where the infrastructure sits under utilised most hours of the year. The reality is that instead of a single point with a thousand chargers we will instead have ten thousand chargers spread the whole length of the road with their information networked to our phones. No mass gatherings of cars all needing fuel at the same point and same time, simply the smooth refuelling as and when each vehicle needs it for their individual journey at a myriad locations. Motorway services will remain emergency stops when you've got it wrong or something changes as opposed to be essential destinations, not just because we do t really like them but because every single charger the entire length of the journey will be able to economically undercut such an extremely expensive fuelling location. And overlaying that will be the natural evolution of how drivers refuel, no longer shackles to a small number of convenient petrol stations but completely free to stop anywhere and do anything, all while paying less for the luxury.
It's this ubiquity of fuel and the fact that almost anyone or anything can set themself up as a seller that guarantees to seamlessly completely structurally change the way we refuel, whether just topping up, grazing as we move about locally or when we break the daily routine and travel further afield.
With most destinations having chargers at one end and most owners having chargers at their end and hundreds of thousands of different rate chargers distributed throughout the road network all competing for business, you can easily imagine that even by 2030 the landscape and mindset of refuelling is going to be manifestly different to how it has been designed for petrol.
It's why there is no commercial argument for residential street chargers, no need for the Govt to spend taxpayer money. Private enterprise is going to pay to get our business. It's why the likes of Shell and BP are tying up deals with landlords and retailers at one end while at the other, EV owners are renting out their driveway and charger on apps like JustPark.
By the time 2035 comes along the network is going to be there for almost anyone to switch to EV but it'll be a network of millions of chargers spread out across the country, not thousands of single, dedicated fuel vending businesses as we have grown up with.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff