green charging - refuel at a garden centre :-)
Discussion
Zarco said:
Great posts DA 
Would agree and MT too.I mean even if you're a domestic consumer with a charger next to your drive, why wouldn't you setup to sell power to someone who needed it and was a visitor.
It's probably going to be in years to come that a looked for must have feature in a holiday let will be charging facility just like central heating, WiFi etc is today.
I mean I looked at zap map for where we go in N Yorks, most chargers, and there aren't many that, are attached to such as hotels and b&b but seem to be for their guests only. There's some public ones at Aldi, and after that struggling. Get out into the country, nowt.
7kwh is a waste of time in a Supermarket.
There needs to be more work place charging then 7kwh is fine, over an 8 hour shift its fine
Company has 250 staff working shifts, we have 3 post, 6 points, 1 has never worked since its been insalled despite constant emails to BP.
Company is in the ULEZ more people going all electric, some days you can't get on a post, bloody plug on hybrids hogging them for a full 8 hours, grrrrrr......and its only going to get worse.
There needs to be more work place charging then 7kwh is fine, over an 8 hour shift its fine
Company has 250 staff working shifts, we have 3 post, 6 points, 1 has never worked since its been insalled despite constant emails to BP.
Company is in the ULEZ more people going all electric, some days you can't get on a post, bloody plug on hybrids hogging them for a full 8 hours, grrrrrr......and its only going to get worse.
Zarco said:
Great posts DA
Thanks. I just think it's important to step back and appreciate that the geography of a small, wealthy island, how the occupants interact with that geography and the ubiquity of infrastructure it has created is manifestly at odds with the vast and often empty geography of other countries such as the US. Geography, topography, geology will define a nations economy, the movement of its people and critically its infrastructure. You can see this quite clearly with Tesla's approach which might be spot on for covering the vast expanses between US conurbations, a culture of driving greater distances and the absence of continuous infrastructure where big blocks of rapid chargers forced in where there is enough energy supply seems pretty critical. Yet on a small island like Britain it's a very 20th century idea to have lots of mid sized saloons ploughing up and down the motorway network all refuelling at the same place and time.
You can see the importance during this initial phase of early adoption but it is very hard to see any kind of future for it as it's potentially one of the worst ways on our small, densely populated island to be taking advantage of different relationship in refuelling between ICE and EV. We don't have those vast expanses that must be leapfrogged, we have electricity under the ground anywhere there are humans and anywhere cars move. In the U.K. we have absolutely no need to restrict and throttle our EV transition to an archaic form of refuelling that exists purely as a function of having to compromise how the fuel is transported.
A bit of an example of this can be appreciated by anyone who has driven the N500 in a gas guzzling sports car. You spend your time considering how to refuel a car which might have a best range of 250 miles but in those conditions considerably less and where the economics of petrol distribution means there are very few locations where petrol can be sold. Conversely, at almost no point are you ever more than a few yards away from electricity and there are no such transport barriers to define the economics of installing a 'fuel pump'. Any business or residence along that route can and will be able to set themselves up as a refuelling point, whether it's Angus who will unplug his car on his driveway and let you plug yours in for a bit of cash in hand up to the hotels and other tourist businesses that will all become fuelling forecourts or lose out on vital trade.
Even when we have batteries that can take charge much more quickly and more of it the number of super chargers and the number of simultaneous users will be throttled by the amount of fuel that can be delivered to a single location. Pricing will be used to maximise the revenue from the limited supply of fuel and to steer the excess demand away.
For the U.K., Tesla's current solution has no great future in terms of being the defining way we refuel. It's incredibly dated and reminiscent of the 90s Vectra and Mondeo wars for us here. It's a fix to help sell cars today but longer term just a legacy product and will just be a small part, more an emergency part, of the network that will evolve.
30m driveways able to sell fuel. Every retailer with parking able to sell fuel. Every destination selling fuel. Every single exit of every main road able to sell fuel. And every single one able to massively undercut a legacy forecourt model designed for the selling of a wholly different product.
You can't underestimate how the total ubiquity of electricity versus the monumental restrictions of petrol distribution is going to wholly transform how we refuel whether pottering locally or setting off to cross the island. Nor how all of that will be blended in to the computers in our cars and phones to pre-book etc.
By 2040, in Britain, drivers really will be looking back and not just wondering why on Earth they were worried about the restrictions of crappy Li battery tech bit also why they put up with the hassle and restrictions of petrol buying for as long as they did.
SWoll said:
Zarco said:
Already seen it at a large posh farm shop place in Devon this year. Place was full of Teslas'.
Darts Farm. It's a Tesla Supercharger location so hardly surprising, used one of their V3 chargers myself in September. The Thai fishcakes from the fish shed are wonderful BTW. 
We had fish and chips from the shed. Decent
There's obviously plenty of people with money round that part of Devon. I visit family a few times a year and always spot lots of nice metal out on the roads.
FiF said:
Would agree and MT too.
I mean even if you're a domestic consumer with a charger next to your drive, why wouldn't you setup to sell power to someone who needed it and was a visitor.
It's probably going to be in years to come that a looked for must have feature in a holiday let will be charging facility just like central heating, WiFi etc is today.
I mean I looked at zap map for where we go in N Yorks, most chargers, and there aren't many that, are attached to such as hotels and b&b but seem to be for their guests only. There's some public ones at Aldi, and after that struggling. Get out into the country, nowt.
Holiday lets here are already under pressure to offer charging and many already do because the business sells heavily to Londoners. I mean even if you're a domestic consumer with a charger next to your drive, why wouldn't you setup to sell power to someone who needed it and was a visitor.
It's probably going to be in years to come that a looked for must have feature in a holiday let will be charging facility just like central heating, WiFi etc is today.
I mean I looked at zap map for where we go in N Yorks, most chargers, and there aren't many that, are attached to such as hotels and b&b but seem to be for their guests only. There's some public ones at Aldi, and after that struggling. Get out into the country, nowt.
There's a holiday let in the next village which appears to target Tesla owners almost specifically. It has two chargers on the driveway, does weekly lets and it's almost always Tesla's that are parked there.
There is a let in my village which includes the use of an EV as it targets the eco holiday maker. Their model is that the customer may have to drive here in an ICE but once here they can move around locally with an EV.
The country pubs that aim to sell beds and food to Londoners all have chargers. As do the shops that have parking.
If you have an EV in London and leave fully charged you already have little need to stop at Beaconsfield or Oxford on the M40 to refuel.
Conversely, the weekly commuters in London have favoured using a Tesla as it'll get them there and back without stopping and the daily commuters can even use lower range city cars for the run as you can pre-book a Z3 driveway next to a tube station to refill the car for the return while in the office.
Drive to Oxford or Cheltenham from here and there are chargers at the car park to refuel you and potter locally and most of the supermarkets offer easy grazing. And it's the same in London, head out and most destinations will offer you a refuel to get your booking and most local big retailers have chargers for grazing.
You can see exactly how this is going to stretch out to all corners over the next 20 years as and when the economics add up.
And all of this is ignoring the networks of private commercial chargers that national companies are creating just for the use of their staff so that employees are able to commute and move between businesses freely as well as being used by corporate customers. There's a whole B2B private network growing as corporates must facilitate the needs of staff, contractors and other corporates. All of that is going to remove corporate users from the retail consumer network.
All your John Lewis, Tescos etc employees and corporate customers will have access to their own private fuelling network across the country at staff car parks because these firms have public faces and they are all in a rush to show the public that they care more about kittens while behind closed doors they carry on playing cricket with them in the board room.
audikentman said:
7kwh is a waste of time in a Supermarket.
There needs to be more work place charging then 7kwh is fine, over an 8 hour shift its fine
Company has 250 staff working shifts, we have 3 post, 6 points, 1 has never worked since its been insalled despite constant emails to BP.
Company is in the ULEZ more people going all electric, some days you can't get on a post, bloody plug on hybrids hogging them for a full 8 hours, grrrrrr......and its only going to get worse.
It's just a moment in time. Companies that offer staff parking will have to fit chargers in all the spaces in due course and there will be more pressure among those within the ULEZ. There needs to be more work place charging then 7kwh is fine, over an 8 hour shift its fine
Company has 250 staff working shifts, we have 3 post, 6 points, 1 has never worked since its been insalled despite constant emails to BP.
Company is in the ULEZ more people going all electric, some days you can't get on a post, bloody plug on hybrids hogging them for a full 8 hours, grrrrrr......and its only going to get worse.
7kwh is fine, especially in outer London where distances travelled are tiny and people are just grazing. Most people have only driven a few miles to their local supermarket so only need a few miles added back in the 20 mins they're inside. And obviously, most people with EVs have private fuelling and absolutely no need of any kind of destination charging for day to day movement.
Employers will eventually stop showing employee hybrids the same favours as pure EVs.
The key to remember at this point in time is that there remain absolutely bugger all EVs in the U.K. and almost every one has next to no need to refuel remotely during normal daily usage at this moment in time but all retailers and employers are 100% aware that they will be massively expanding their charging solutions as more people continue the inevitable switch and as people who don't have private charging start to switch.
This puts a bit of perspective on things: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/electric-ca...
It's an evolution not a revolution.
TheRainMaker said:
I really can't see many people wanting strangers parking the drive for hours on end charging at 7 kW, I won't be doing that.
Horses for courses. Live by a tube station near a main artery into London and have space to spare on a driveway, why wouldn't you? People already do and have been renting these spaces out for years to commuters and tourists.
Money for nothing. My neighbour in Z2 was a retired lady who didn't own a car but had parking for three on her drive. She rented out parking to 2 commuters and was getting over £50/day, around £12k a year basic for having two nice cars on her empty drive. There was also the weekend parking the AirB&B across the road that earned her another few £k/year. And the occasional evening parking from midweek tourists for food and theatre etc.
My guess is that she was grossing close to £20k/annum for just putting her empty driveway on an app and pricing out the sort of people she didn't really want.
Live next to a B&B in the middle of nowhere and well heeled customers of that B&B get sent to you as they get sent to the local publican? Why not. Money for nothing.
Live in a modest suburban house, in a conventional area? Why would you want some random punter clogging your stone paving for amounts of money that are an irrelevance? Yet people in those homes, have for decades, rented a room to business users and this has increased due to apps like Airbnb so it's hardly a big step to offering space on the drive should there be a viable demand for it, which is probably unlikely.
DonkeyApple said:
TheRainMaker said:
I really can't see many people wanting strangers parking the drive for hours on end charging at 7 kW, I won't be doing that.
Horses for courses. Live by a tube station near a main artery into London and have space to spare on a driveway, why wouldn't you? People already do and have been renting these spaces out for years to commuters and tourists.
Money for nothing. My neighbour in Z2 was a retired lady who didn't own a car but had parking for three on her drive. She rented out parking to 2 commuters and was getting over £50/day, around £12k a year basic for having two nice cars on her empty drive. There was also the weekend parking the AirB&B across the road that earned her another few £k/year. And the occasional evening parking from midweek tourists for food and theatre etc.
My guess is that she was grossing close to £20k/annum for just putting her empty driveway on an app and pricing out the sort of people she didn't really want.
Live next to a B&B in the middle of nowhere and well heeled customers of that B&B get sent to you as they get sent to the local publican? Why not. Money for nothing.
Live in a modest suburban house, in a conventional area? Why would you want some random punter clogging your stone paving for amounts of money that are an irrelevance? Yet people in those homes, have for decades, rented a room to business users and this has increased due to apps like Airbnb so it's hardly a big step to offering space on the drive should there be a viable demand for it, which is probably unlikely.
By the time you have had a charger that will be able to be part of a system to take automated payments installed, the hassle of having people park at your house when you might need it yourself, the service provider like Air B&B taking a cut you won't be left with a lot.
If we go with BP 33p with free membership as a base at which you could charge, which people already moan is too expensive.
BG electric charge day time tariff 20.77p kW
That leaves you with 12.23p kW
Take off the cost of a charger that will work with a payment service £1000.00 (guess) divide that by four years = £250 per year
Let's assume you have someone charging every single day of the year (which you won't) for 6 hours at 7kW, that will generate you £1887.05 per year.
£1887.05 - 15% (£283) for payment fees and service charges like Air BB = £1604.05
£1604.05 - the cost of the charger for the year £250.00 = £1354.05 per year in income, then take off any tax you will need to pay on the income + fill in tax returns.
£1354.05 doesn't seem like a good idea to me to have someone parked on the drive for 6 hours a day every single day of the year blocking something I will want to use myself.
My maths is probably wrong but you get the idea.
Obviously, you can take out the cost of the charger if you will have one anyway, however, it will still not be one of the cheap ones and will need to be connected to a payment service etc.
I really just don't think most people will bother.
I think what DA is suggesting is that a) it works for people who have space they won't use b) space that's near something/somewhere people want to park for... so commuters into London, or some sort of event type place, even local train stations (the current local one is gradually shrinking it's car parks). It wouldn't apply to my drive for example, too far from anything.
I think he's also suggesting the charging is the cherry on top, so you pay for the park (eg. £50 for the day), and get charging on top. Or even make a big markup on the cost of the leccy for the "convenience".
But yes, charging of itself, if done within your example doesn't really make it worth it.
I think he's also suggesting the charging is the cherry on top, so you pay for the park (eg. £50 for the day), and get charging on top. Or even make a big markup on the cost of the leccy for the "convenience".
But yes, charging of itself, if done within your example doesn't really make it worth it.
Re allowing people to use your drive and charger I think it depends how trusting and honest people are in terms of using, paying for and making available charging facilities. You can pay for charging now to Zap map home owners using PayPal.me for digital payments. It's stated you have to have a conversation with the owner first,but generally use of the charger is just by plugging in. That's from Zap Map Home Network site.
As mentioned earlier the university ones are free but payment is covered by members of public without a staff / student parking permit having to cough up a pay and display fee which more than covers any service provision.
If people sadly being people there comes a market for home chargers where the owner can restrict access by some method and linking to payment then it will be developed.
As mentioned earlier the university ones are free but payment is covered by members of public without a staff / student parking permit having to cough up a pay and display fee which more than covers any service provision.
If people sadly being people there comes a market for home chargers where the owner can restrict access by some method and linking to payment then it will be developed.
DonkeyApple said:
For the U.K., Tesla's current solution has no great future in terms of being the defining way we refuel. It's incredibly dated and reminiscent of the 90s Vectra and Mondeo wars for us here. It's a fix to help sell cars today but longer term just a legacy product and will just be a small part, more an emergency part, of the network that will evolve.
30m driveways able to sell fuel. Every retailer with parking able to sell fuel. Every destination selling fuel. Every single exit of every main road able to sell fuel. And every single one able to massively undercut a legacy forecourt model designed for the selling of a wholly different product.
The advantage Tesla have is "it just works". The Sat includes charging in the route planning, live updates with charger availbility, just plug in (no apps, cards, etc), it's even more convienient than filling with petrol. This takes away any nervousness regarding charging.30m driveways able to sell fuel. Every retailer with parking able to sell fuel. Every destination selling fuel. Every single exit of every main road able to sell fuel. And every single one able to massively undercut a legacy forecourt model designed for the selling of a wholly different product.
Charging with any other EV is not as integrated and involces numerous apps, setting up accounts (I know contact payment is being mandated at chargers)
Of course your example is possible and will be taken up by some, but the majority need something that "just works"
And it will become much less hassle when wireless charging becomes available...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/u...
In response to DAs comments about not needing service stations to charge, I would say that if I drive to Scotland in my EV6 then I'll happily pay a premium for a super-fast charger to top it up from 10-80% in 18 minutes.
And I know that's not an every day occurrence but I would imagine that there will be enough requirement for these to persist.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/u...
In response to DAs comments about not needing service stations to charge, I would say that if I drive to Scotland in my EV6 then I'll happily pay a premium for a super-fast charger to top it up from 10-80% in 18 minutes.
And I know that's not an every day occurrence but I would imagine that there will be enough requirement for these to persist.
TheRainMaker said:
I get what you are saying but the take up really will be tiny, the money is just not there.
By the time you have had a charger that will be able to be part of a system to take automated payments installed, the hassle of having people park at your house when you might need it yourself, the service provider like Air B&B taking a cut you won't be left with a lot.
If we go with BP 33p with free membership as a base at which you could charge, which people already moan is too expensive.
BG electric charge day time tariff 20.77p kW
That leaves you with 12.23p kW
Take off the cost of a charger that will work with a payment service £1000.00 (guess) divide that by four years = £250 per year
Let's assume you have someone charging every single day of the year (which you won't) for 6 hours at 7kW, that will generate you £1887.05 per year.
£1887.05 - 15% (£283) for payment fees and service charges like Air BB = £1604.05
£1604.05 - the cost of the charger for the year £250.00 = £1354.05 per year in income, then take off any tax you will need to pay on the income + fill in tax returns.
£1354.05 doesn't seem like a good idea to me to have someone parked on the drive for 6 hours a day every single day of the year blocking something I will want to use myself.
My maths is probably wrong but you get the idea.
Obviously, you can take out the cost of the charger if you will have one anyway, however, it will still not be one of the cheap ones and will need to be connected to a payment service etc.
I really just don't think most people will bother.
Agree. The key is that the supply is there if the market is there. For example, the parking around London on driveways doesn't charge you for the specific electricity, the owner just adds a premium that more than covers the cost. In reality all they're doing is using the presence of a charger they've already bought for themselves to sell slightly more expensive parking or nick a customer from a neighbour. By the time you have had a charger that will be able to be part of a system to take automated payments installed, the hassle of having people park at your house when you might need it yourself, the service provider like Air B&B taking a cut you won't be left with a lot.
If we go with BP 33p with free membership as a base at which you could charge, which people already moan is too expensive.
BG electric charge day time tariff 20.77p kW
That leaves you with 12.23p kW
Take off the cost of a charger that will work with a payment service £1000.00 (guess) divide that by four years = £250 per year
Let's assume you have someone charging every single day of the year (which you won't) for 6 hours at 7kW, that will generate you £1887.05 per year.
£1887.05 - 15% (£283) for payment fees and service charges like Air BB = £1604.05
£1604.05 - the cost of the charger for the year £250.00 = £1354.05 per year in income, then take off any tax you will need to pay on the income + fill in tax returns.
£1354.05 doesn't seem like a good idea to me to have someone parked on the drive for 6 hours a day every single day of the year blocking something I will want to use myself.
My maths is probably wrong but you get the idea.
Obviously, you can take out the cost of the charger if you will have one anyway, however, it will still not be one of the cheap ones and will need to be connected to a payment service etc.
I really just don't think most people will bother.
And as you see people who live near airports take advantage of the high parking charges to grab a bit of cash, where there is an opportunity you'll see people using their own charger in a similar manner.
The main observation is that there are no real
Capex barriers to being an electricity vendor and pretty much anyone who finds themselves faced with a plausible revenue opportunity can enter the market as a vendor or service supplier.
Do I envisage people pulling up on a suburban driveway and sitting there for 8 hours on their way to Cornwall? No. I'd like to think there aren't enough properly mental people in the country for that to be viable
but I do envisage residents taking advantage of they happened to have driveway space within easy walk of say a tourist destination in Cornwall. WestyCarl said:
The advantage Tesla have is "it just works". The Sat includes charging in the route planning, live updates with charger availbility, just plug in (no apps, cards, etc), it's even more convienient than filling with petrol. This takes away any nervousness regarding charging.
Charging with any other EV is not as integrated and involces numerous apps, setting up accounts (I know contact payment is being mandated at chargers)
Of course your example is possible and will be taken up by some, but the majority need something that "just works"
Yup. But it only works today because there are hardly any EVs. Even the arrival of the model 3 has shown the longer term flaw and dead end nature of this as a longer term solution. To keep up with the number of Tesla's being sold the motorway services don't have enough land and will eventually run out of power capacity. Plus, the economics, that are already loss making as a standalone operation, will completely collapse as the hundreds of chargers will be dormant most of the time and unable to cope at peak, seasonal times. Charging with any other EV is not as integrated and involces numerous apps, setting up accounts (I know contact payment is being mandated at chargers)
Of course your example is possible and will be taken up by some, but the majority need something that "just works"
It works today but can't work tomorrow.
Max_Torque said:
DonkeyApple said:
Pretty much anyone can become a fuel retailer. The barriers to entry being absolutely minimal.
^^^ this is a very interesting point!Today, the market dynamics of petrol retailing are driven by "cheapest is best" ie customers will happily drive a bit further to buy cheaper fuel, but there are only so many locations where you can install a fuel station because of the onerous requirements in handling large quanties of highly flamable liquids.
A battery charger is not in any way limited by those restrictions. This i suspect will indeed as you suggest change the game somewhat, especially as those chargers are starting off with internet connections meaning anyone can see the cost and status of a charger on their phone before physcially driving there.
http://oilcare.org.uk/case-studies/case-study-home...
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