E-Golf to Tesla Model 3 - am I mad?

[ZesPak]

ajap1979 said:

ZesPak said:

It's a price issue. If you can afford the TM3, go for the Tesla. It's just better in every way.

Practicality? Ride comfort? Refinement?

Having tested them next to each other not that long ago:

Practicality:
The Model 3 definitely feels like it can take more luggage. In reality there's probably very little in it.
If I had to pick one to take 4 people on a trip, the Model 3 feels bigger.

Ride comfort:
Both cars seem very wheel-dependent. I'd say go for the smaller wheels on either and there won't be much in it. The Model 3 feels more planted/sure footed though.

Refinement:
Have a look at both. The Model 3 is ok and the ID3 is not VW's greatest.

[SWoll]

caseys said:

The Taycan is nice as a weekend car but would irritate me greatly as a daily. And after I optioned the roof bars or bike carrier I realised how stupid Porsche tax is (you need the £6k panoramic room for instance for roof bars…).

Just for accuracy it's £1137 for the panoramic roof on the Taycan + £413 for the roof rails.

Edited by SWoll on Monday 20th December 12:39

[ajap1979]

caseys said:

Practicability? If we’re talking practicality with charging? The Tesla. Bike rack? Both. Roof bars? Both. Need a large load that’s got a large size to it? The hatchback of the id3 wins.

That's not strictly true re. the bike rack, the tow hitch on the Tesla supports a max weight of 55kgs, so taking the carrier into the equation you're getting two bikes on it, max. It's 75kgs on the ID.3 so easily three bikes. There are no approved roof bars for the ID.3, however with a full glass roof on both cars I wouldn't want to use one anyway.

[soupdragon1]

caseys said:

So I’d say I’m reasonably positioned to post in this topic…

The id3 is going back to On.to today after using it since 1st November as a stop gap until my 3 turned up. I had previously gone and test driven the following that were all in my budget of cars I can buy:

Tesla Model 3 (perf and LR)
Mercedes EQC
Mercedes EQA
Porsche Taycan
Porsche Panamera Hybrid
Nissan Leaf
Ioniq 5
Kona EV
VW Id3
VW Id4 GTX
Audi eTron GT
Audi eTron (the big bus sized one)

And I’ve put 50,000 miles on a BMW i3 and about 60,000 on a BMW 330e. You could say I’m into the electric vehicle thing.

I’ve also owned VW Golfs - mk3, mk4 and a mk6? (64 plate). I’ve liked my golfs - the mk3 was my first car and it was awesome. Hence going to test drive the id3/id4.

After all those test drives I looked to On.to to get a temp car whilst I was looking to buy. The id3 seemed the right mix of range, familiarity and value for money for what on.to offers.

(Edit: so I’ve covered 2500 miles in 8 weeks in the id3. Day driving. Night driving. Driving in the rain. Road trips (270 mile motorway jaunts) and nice trips on a-roads. So I’ve given it quite a test in the time I’ve had it).

The eqc was nice but wallowy and pricy. The Taycan is nice as a weekend car but would irritate me greatly as a daily. And after I optioned the roof bars or bike carrier I realised how stupid Porsche tax is (you need the £6k panoramic room for instance for roof bars…). The Ioniq I could only test drive in 2wd as the dealer said they would never have a 4am model to test drive - it’s interior is either leather and gaudy at the top spec or harsh and plastic ridden in the lower spec and uncomfortable.

I’m also use to I guess a nimble and easy to drive EV in the i3. One pedal driving when you do 15-20k miles a year is a luxury I don’t want to sacrifice. It seems all the VAG cars don’t really do one pedal driving. The “b” mode of the cars is awful when you know it could regenerate harder but you have to press the brake pedal to do so - where as in a bmw, a Tesla or a Nissan it’ll one pedal and you modulate your regen by easing off the accelerator. And the former creep forward like an old school auto, the latter “hold” and do not when you reach 0mph. The latter is far easier and less tiring on you in stop start traffic. Yes, the VAgG cars have auto-hold if you double tap the brake pedal. But I don’t want to do that a few hundred times a day if I’m heading home from a long drive and there’s stop start traffic.

The brake pedal is also awfully woeful in its lack of progression in the id3. As at some point it blends the brakes in with regen and it lacks being able to provide a smooth consistent stop if you need it and doesn’t help instill confidence in how it behaves.

The software is woeful. The id3 went into the dealer the other week as the ACC as mentioned elsewhere false detects speed limits and is basically dangerous. Either braking you from 70mph when it detects a nearby 30mph, or if like the other week on the m25 decided and displayed that the speed limit was 80mph for about 20 miles before I peeled off at J12 - so if I activated it I would have no choice but to speed. Wish I got a photo of that.

It’s down level on software right now (2.1) but even my local vw dealer can’t push it up to 2.4 which cures a lot of problems I’ve seen in my 8ish weeks of usage. They say the software is done centrally. When I was given the car back 2 days later they acknowledged they saw logged the cruise and charging faults id seen but all they could do was clear the log. When I asked about the ACC they said VW have recognised the fault in the ID cars. I asked if there was any workaround - there is not. So basically ACC isn’t usable.

Collision detection warning system is hypersensitive. It’s gone off due to leaves on the road, or a slightly raised drain which I’d happily cycle over. All these during the day, no traffic, dry conditions. The system probably went off 1-2 times a day.

Twice it decided I was plugged in and wouldn’t go into drive. I was not plugged in.

A few times it failed to charge. When it did charge, it got probably 30% of the kw charging rate my 2019 i3 did. Even though it’s capable of 200% of the rate. The best charging rate I saw was I think 50kw plugged into a 350kw charger when I was at 10% SoC after a 110 mile drive.

The scheduled charging ignores your scheduled end time. It’ll abide by the start time - so I set the car to charge 00:30-04:30 (octopus!) and my i3 and now the Tesla top up “what they can” in the timeframe and stop at 04:30. The id3 just keeps on charging…

The UI is awful. You can be in the car with it on for a good 1-2 minutes before you can do complex things like set the fans or set the radio station.

The light / demisters / fog light panel are behind the steering wheel so you need an arm with two elbows to reach it when in a driving position. Also don’t bother trying to turn the lights off in the day to avoid glare from the car / van in front from your own lights. The car will turn then back on in less than 60 seconds.

The air conditioning has twice stated it is not available whilst stationary and to consult the handbook. The next time you get in this error is gone.

State of charging is only displayed on one screen when you’re above 10%. And so it means you can’t have anything else on the main screen. Even though it could be displayed on the sidebar or on the dash screen. It gets displayed on the dash screen when you hit 10% or lower SoC. allegedly v3.0 software fixes this and starts rolling out in March. But as vw can’t push updates at a dealer level it could I guess be months after to get it?

Traction is awful on stock tires.

The app on the front screen displays useless information apart from range. Charging the car and want to know when it’s finished? Need to go to a secondary part of the app. Even though they have space to put such primary information front and centre when you open the app.

Oh and go look at the comical driver side door window switches. Could put all 4 on the door. Put two and a soft electric selection icon.

The id range alas smacks of a rushed job and incredible hubris. It’s dented my conception of the VW brand and VAG as a whole. It’s not even a half baked range of cars. They need to go back to the drawing board and consider doing some good usability studies than putting vastly stupid form over function. I hope the v3.0 software fixed the UI and the systems and sensors having so many false positives. Not sure how they can fix the light panel or the electric windows or how you can access basic functions easily with the screen space and the button layout they have.

It’s a shame. Wanted to like it. Instead just got incredibly disappointed.

Tesla - so far I’ve found the auto wiper function crap. Apart from that it’s so much better in every perceivable way.

Edited by caseys on Monday 20th December 09:39

Interesting post and it just shows how much value we place in certain things

After much deliberating, I ended up buying the VW ID3 as I thought it represented much better bang for buck, and a really good overall package

Now if the aircon was a regular problematic issue, that would annoy the hell out of me too - thats a basic and it needs to be right. By the time mine comes (family pro performance) it will have the new interior upgrades and the new 3.0 software. The 2.1 your ID3 was on is known to be rubbish, so perhaps that had a big influence on your experience.

The things that I liked about the ID3 was its size/practicality. Such a small footprint for good cabin space and turning circle of a city car. I can't wait to reap the benefits of that (long story, but tight turning circle will be of significant benefit to me 10 times a week)

The ride quality and general ambience is really good in the ID3 and 200bhp is plenty for most, and certainly enough for me. The matrix headlights are important too. A lot of the roads around where I am have cats eyes in badly need of replacement (ie, they don't reflect light) and matrix headlights will make night driving less dangerous/stressful. The council really needs to get their finger out TBH, cats eyes are not expensive and they improve road safety.

I also filled in a survey that VW are doing for owners re: the one pedal driving. Looks like that will become an update soon and I agree with your point - I feel its an feature that all EV's should really have out of the gate.

Nobody really talks about the VW 'intelligent regen' though. Its pretty amazing - just drive normally for example and using GPS, if you are approaching a roundabout for example, the car will adjust the regen to the most optimal amount meaning you have periods of 'zero pedal' driving which is cool. No need to feather the throttle to manage your speed - just put both feet on the floor and the car sorts the speed reduction out for you with its progressive regen/intelligent regen.

Interesting point you make about stop start traffic. That's what the traffic assist function is for. Unless your ID3 didn't have it?

For me personally, all these features are great additions to the general day to day driving experience, hence why I ended up buying one.

I got my family pro performance for £29k v £40k for a Polestar 2 and £43k for a Tesla model 3. Those other 2 cars are better in some areas IMO, but from my own perspective, I didn't think they were 40~50% better - I just couldn't see the value of that extra cost. Great cars though, no doubt about that.

[caseys]

SWoll said:

Just for accuracy it's £1137 for the panoramic roof on the Taycan + £413 for the roof rails.

Edited by SWoll on Monday 20th December 12:39

I sit corrected then this was what they were telling me for the Taycan cross turismo. It somehow came to an extra £6k to be able to put stuff on the roof.

Check out the price of the Porsche specific bar and bike carrier too

[caseys]

soupdragon1 said:

Interesting post and it just shows how much value we place in certain things

Now if the aircon was a regular problematic issue, that would annoy the hell out of me too - thats a basic and it needs to be right. By the time mine comes (family pro performance) it will have the new interior upgrades and the new 3.0 software. The 2.1 your ID3 was on is known to be rubbish, so perhaps that had a big influence on your experience.

The things that I liked about the ID3 was its size/practicality. Such a small footprint for good cabin space and turning circle of a city car. I can't wait to reap the benefits of that (long story, but tight turning circle will be of significant benefit to me 10 times a week)

The ride quality and general ambience is really good in the ID3 and 200bhp is plenty for most, and certainly enough for me. The matrix headlights are important too. A lot of the roads around where I am have cats eyes in badly need of replacement (ie, they don't reflect light) and matrix headlights will make night driving less dangerous/stressful. The council really needs to get their finger out TBH, cats eyes are not expensive and they improve road safety.

I also filled in a survey that VW are doing for owners re: the one pedal driving. Looks like that will become an update soon and I agree with your point - I feel its an feature that all EV's should really have out of the gate.

Nobody really talks about the VW 'intelligent regen' though. Its pretty amazing - just drive normally for example and using GPS, if you are approaching a roundabout for example, the car will adjust the regen to the most optimal amount meaning you have periods of 'zero pedal' driving which is cool. No need to feather the throttle to manage your speed - just put both feet on the floor and the car sorts the speed reduction out for you with its progressive regen/intelligent regen.

Interesting point you make about stop start traffic. That's what the traffic assist function is for. Unless your ID3 didn't have it?

Thanks chap for seeing it as a subjective view. I’m just saying what i prefer and my observations. If we all liked the same thing it’d be a very boring world indeed

Id like to try one again at v3.0 to see how it goes and if it irked me less. Didn’t have the traffic assist, or the matrix headlights. Can’t say I noticed any intelligence in the regen apart from constantly wanting max regen when my foot is off the throttle (power?) pedal.

[annodomini2]

caseys said:

Edit : as others have said, the tm3 is £15k (for the long range) more than what you can get the id3 for. But if you’re contemplating both I assume you can afford both and cost isn’t your primary driver.

Comparable spec it's a lot lower, you're looking at the ID.3 tour with the 77kwh battery + some options to get close to the TM3 LR spec.

My analysis puts the ID.3 @ £42.2k, with the Tesla @ £49.99k, so £7.79k not £15k.

The TM3 LR is also 4WD, faster + better range. The ID.3 GTX will be 4WD, but pricing is yet to be confirmed, but expect it to be closer.


Comparing the TM3 (SR+ name has been dropped)

ID.3 Family + options to TM3 spec £38,689, TM3 £42,990, so £4,301.

Yes there is a £32.2k ID.3, if you can tolerate a smaller range, and fewer features, but they are not the same specification and that factors.

Yes you may be able to get discount on the VW, but that will be on a deal by deal basis and the lead times are longer.

[ajap1979]

I don't think there is much value comparing any ID.3 to the M3LR. The range, performance and cost are at another level.

With the regular M3 you may as well compare it to the Max, which is fully loaded with every option available. With the removal of the finance contribution, discounts aren't brilliant at the moment, but 7% is easily achievable, meaning your difference between the two is £6500. I've just done some very quick calculations on a personal PCP (48 month term, £4.5k down, 10k a year) and the Tesla is working out £175 a month more, so that £6500 is significant.

[soupdragon1]

annodomini2 said:

caseys said:

Edit : as others have said, the tm3 is £15k (for the long range) more than what you can get the id3 for. But if you’re contemplating both I assume you can afford both and cost isn’t your primary driver.

Comparable spec it's a lot lower, you're looking at the ID.3 tour with the 77kwh battery + some options to get close to the TM3 LR spec.

My analysis puts the ID.3 @ £42.2k, with the Tesla @ £49.99k, so £7.79k not £15k.

The TM3 LR is also 4WD, faster + better range. The ID.3 GTX will be 4WD, but pricing is yet to be confirmed, but expect it to be closer.


Comparing the TM3 (SR+ name has been dropped)

ID.3 Family + options to TM3 spec £38,689, TM3 £42,990, so £4,301.

Yes there is a £32.2k ID.3, if you can tolerate a smaller range, and fewer features, but they are not the same specification and that factors.

Yes you may be able to get discount on the VW, but that will be on a deal by deal basis and the lead times are longer.

You see this frequently across car forums when discussing M3, MY etc etc

People spec up cheaper cars to say, 'if you spec car XX to model 3, the cost becomes £xx

Surely the overall point is that if you want a Tesla spec car, you should buy a Tesla? Why buy a VW and try and make it as close to a Tesla as you can, when you can just go out and buy a Tesla instead?

Its a strange logic.

For example - when I ordered my ID3, I thought it was a good price for a good spec. At the same time, there is absolutely no way on this earth I would hand over £40k for an ID3 - for me personally, there are better options at that price. I don't care how well specced it is - £40k for an ID3? You've got to be joking

However the £29k I got the family pro performance (58kwh) for was a sweet spot for my personal requirements. I could drop another £11k to £14k on a Polestar 2 or a M3, but when I weighed up what I was getting for the extra money, it didn't really make sense for me.

Anyway - thats enough for now - I'm off to the Android hackers forum to learn how to turn my new Samsung Note 20 into an iPhone 13....

[ZesPak]

My sister specced her to <40k EUR, far less than you could get any Tesla down.

[annodomini2]

soupdragon1 said:

annodomini2 said:

caseys said:

Edit : as others have said, the tm3 is £15k (for the long range) more than what you can get the id3 for. But if you’re contemplating both I assume you can afford both and cost isn’t your primary driver.

Comparable spec it's a lot lower, you're looking at the ID.3 tour with the 77kwh battery + some options to get close to the TM3 LR spec.

My analysis puts the ID.3 @ £42.2k, with the Tesla @ £49.99k, so £7.79k not £15k.

The TM3 LR is also 4WD, faster + better range. The ID.3 GTX will be 4WD, but pricing is yet to be confirmed, but expect it to be closer.


Comparing the TM3 (SR+ name has been dropped)

ID.3 Family + options to TM3 spec £38,689, TM3 £42,990, so £4,301.

Yes there is a £32.2k ID.3, if you can tolerate a smaller range, and fewer features, but they are not the same specification and that factors.

Yes you may be able to get discount on the VW, but that will be on a deal by deal basis and the lead times are longer.

You see this frequently across car forums when discussing M3, MY etc etc

People spec up cheaper cars to say, 'if you spec car XX to model 3, the cost becomes £xx

Surely the overall point is that if you want a Tesla spec car, you should buy a Tesla? Why buy a VW and try and make it as close to a Tesla as you can, when you can just go out and buy a Tesla instead?

Its a strange logic.

For example - when I ordered my ID3, I thought it was a good price for a good spec. At the same time, there is absolutely no way on this earth I would hand over £40k for an ID3 - for me personally, there are better options at that price. I don't care how well specced it is - £40k for an ID3? You've got to be joking

However the £29k I got the family pro performance (58kwh) for was a sweet spot for my personal requirements. I could drop another £11k to £14k on a Polestar 2 or a M3, but when I weighed up what I was getting for the extra money, it didn't really make sense for me.

Anyway - thats enough for now - I'm off to the Android hackers forum to learn how to turn my new Samsung Note 20 into an iPhone 13....

My statement was with regards to the £15k difference.

Because all these things are included in the TM3 base price, they're not options.

As I stated, yes you can buy a cheaper ID.3, but spec for spec the gaps are a lot smaller.

[oldmanbm]

Thanks for your help chaps. Had a good run in 2021 model year Standard Range+. Lovely car with excellent range. Trigger pulled.

[ZesPak]

annodomini2 said:

As I stated, yes you can buy a cheaper ID.3, but spec for spec the gaps are a lot smaller.

Tesla cars have become really good VFM now that "the big boys" are here.
I really like my Model S, it might not be the latest and greatest in interiour plastics, but spec for spec it's a surprisingly good deal.