Discussion
Rockets7 said:
Not sure how you’ve drawn this conclusion. My 250d slk sits in ‘D’ with auto hold on. Simply squeeze the gas and it’s away?
It boils down to how the manufacturer programs their ZF ECU. So many put lags in probably to allow them to put a cheaper version of the box in? I don't know about the latest Merc boxes but the Gtronic ones were proper tough and even with the big AMGs of the day when you lifted off the brake and transitioned to throttle there was no lag. The worst offenders on the ZF boxes that I've found in recent years have been BMW. They are the chaps who know how to take a good auto box and make it utterly useless. They did it with the ZF6 in the 1 series and the ZF8 in the most recent 3 has the lag. Weirdly, they don't program it in so much to the 7 series.
It's completely deliberate and I don't know why they do it, some manufacturers don't do it at all but it makes auto BMW absolutely horrible city cars if you're used to a car just doing what you ask, when you ask.
The ZF6 in the 1 series had a woeful lag that meant you'd gently apply some throttle at the apex and you'd get nothing for a full second bu which time it was far too late. Putting it in sport mode lifts dome of the lag but who wants to be pressing buttons to remove a niggle that has no right to be there and is deliberate. In heavy traffic such as central London that ZF6 was a real pain. When you're at a junction in London and you have a gap appear in front of you, if you don't immediately start moving then someone else will take that opportunity. With the BMW, you'd see the gap, you'd apply some throttle from stationary and your car wouldn't move an inch. Someone else would start moving into the gap and then your car would decide to move and leap at that car.
The ZF8 in the 3 series is better but they've still managed to take one of the best auto boxes ever made and make it clunky and laggy. Coast down below 15mph approaching a junction then accelerate because it's all clear and the car won't do anything. You just roll out with no power because it's been programmed that the only outcome was to be stopping not driving away. It then delivers too much too late. It's very difficult to drive gently. But the whole car is with stop/start that cuts in when still moving if your style of driving in heavy traffic is to creep along at 1 mph.
BMW have always taken good gearboxes and programmed dumb into them. The 540 of the mid 90s had the ZF5 and this gearbox was 'intelligent'. It was so smart that when it noticed the car had been driving slowly for a while it wouldn't give you any power if you suddenly buried the throttle because you had clearly sneezed or got confused. Of course when you buy a 540, just like a 130 or 340, the rather obvious reality is that you've been driving slow for a while because you've been stuck behind a tractor or caravan and that you've got a safe window to overtake that needs the performance of the car but the car has been programmed to not give you its performance.
But it's not just autos with BMW. I drove a 330 a couple of generations back and the change on the 6 speed manual was horrible.
The reason the i3 is so good to drive is because the blokes in the factory who ruin all their other cars with their provincial and highly limited experiences and abilities clearly weren't needed on this project so it hasn't been ruined by them.
Part of what makes the i3 so great from a serial performance BMW owner perspective is down to how irritating BMWs have been since kids with laptops got involved making them work.
Rockets7 said:
Not sure how you’ve drawn this conclusion. My 250d slk sits in ‘D’ with auto hold on. Simply squeeze the gas and it’s away?
That’s what most think until they drive an EV. No need to squeeze anything, just press. Clutches closing or torque converters converting all take time. JonnyVTEC said:
Rockets7 said:
Not sure how you’ve drawn this conclusion. My 250d slk sits in ‘D’ with auto hold on. Simply squeeze the gas and it’s away?
That’s what most think until they drive an EV. No need to squeeze anything, just press. Clutches closing or torque converters converting all take time. 
An EV that does 0-60 in 6 seconds will be no faster off the line than an ICE that will do 0-60 in 6 seconds.
JonnyVTEC said:
That’s what most think until they drive an EV. No need to squeeze anything, just press. Clutches closing or torque converters converting all take time.
Ok.... I press not squeeze, but when it’s stopped in ‘HOLD’ guise it’s instant off the mark when I press / squeeze. I fail to see your gain here?
DonkeyApple said:
It boils down to how the manufacturer
The worst offenders on the ZF boxes that I've found in recent years have been BMW. They are the chaps who know how to take a good auto box and make it utterly useless. They did it with the ZF6 in the 1 series and the ZF8 in the most recent 3 has the lag. Weirdly, they don't program it in so much to the 7 series.
It's completely deliberate and I don't know why they do it, some manufacturers don't do it at all but it makes auto BMW absolutely horrible city cars if you're used to a car just doing what you ask, when you ask. .
What!!!The worst offenders on the ZF boxes that I've found in recent years have been BMW. They are the chaps who know how to take a good auto box and make it utterly useless. They did it with the ZF6 in the 1 series and the ZF8 in the most recent 3 has the lag. Weirdly, they don't program it in so much to the 7 series.
It's completely deliberate and I don't know why they do it, some manufacturers don't do it at all but it makes auto BMW absolutely horrible city cars if you're used to a car just doing what you ask, when you ask. .
No lag whatsoever in my F30 335d ZF8. I have to contest that statement quite strongly as far as my car and experience goes. It makes it absolutely superb around town, yet very strong on the open road.
TheRainMaker said:
JonnyVTEC said:
Rockets7 said:
Not sure how you’ve drawn this conclusion. My 250d slk sits in ‘D’ with auto hold on. Simply squeeze the gas and it’s away?
That’s what most think until they drive an EV. No need to squeeze anything, just press. Clutches closing or torque converters converting all take time. An EV that does 0-60 in 6 seconds will be no faster off the line than an ICE that will do 0-60 in 6 seconds.
Pica-Pica said:
What!!!
No lag whatsoever in my F30 335d ZF8. I have to contest that statement quite strongly as far as my car and experience goes. It makes it absolutely superb around town, yet very strong on the open road.
I've just dumped a 340i purely because the programming of the TCU rendered it horrible for my style of driving, conversely the i3 matches my style very well. The 340 was just plain nasty in a heavily urban environment for me. No lag whatsoever in my F30 335d ZF8. I have to contest that statement quite strongly as far as my car and experience goes. It makes it absolutely superb around town, yet very strong on the open road.
DonkeyApple said:
TheRainMaker said:
JonnyVTEC said:
Rockets7 said:
Not sure how you’ve drawn this conclusion. My 250d slk sits in ‘D’ with auto hold on. Simply squeeze the gas and it’s away?
That’s what most think until they drive an EV. No need to squeeze anything, just press. Clutches closing or torque converters converting all take time. An EV that does 0-60 in 6 seconds will be no faster off the line than an ICE that will do 0-60 in 6 seconds.
Once moving I 100% agree the electric motor is a better solution.
TheRainMaker said:
What a load of balls
An EV that does 0-60 in 6 seconds will be no faster off the line than an ICE that will do 0-60 in 6 seconds.
That’s not what I said. Primed and ready same sort of time, the ICE will get into its stride post 60 anyway. Just that normal day to day stuff where even an auto can leave you waiting. Of course the point I was first making was in reference in to manuals. You crack on and change the narrative though. An EV that does 0-60 in 6 seconds will be no faster off the line than an ICE that will do 0-60 in 6 seconds.
JonnyVTEC said:
TheRainMaker said:
What a load of balls
An EV that does 0-60 in 6 seconds will be no faster off the line than an ICE that will do 0-60 in 6 seconds.
That’s not what I said. Primed and ready same sort of time, the ICE will get into its stride post 60 anyway. Just that normal day to day stuff where even an auto can leave you waiting. Of course the point I was first making was in reference in to manuals. You crack on and change the narrative though. An EV that does 0-60 in 6 seconds will be no faster off the line than an ICE that will do 0-60 in 6 seconds.
TheRainMaker said:
I haven’t changed anything, auto or manual it makes no difference off the line, both will react just as fast.
I would put my money on the ICE with a torque converter automatic and the driver doing a stalled start.Both have the same 0 - 60 but the ICE has better initial acceleration thanks to the torque converter (and ZF 8 speed say) multiplication and so covers more distance - so will be out in front.
Initial acceleration of my Leaf feels lethargic, but better once rolling. This is subjective due to years of conditioning with torque converter automatics.
granada203028 said:
TheRainMaker said:
I haven’t changed anything, auto or manual it makes no difference off the line, both will react just as fast.
I would put my money on the ICE with a torque converter automatic and the driver doing a stalled start.Both have the same 0 - 60 but the ICE has better initial acceleration thanks to the torque converter (and ZF 8 speed say) multiplication and so covers more distance - so will be out in front.
Initial acceleration of my Leaf feels lethargic, but better once rolling. This is subjective due to years of conditioning with torque converter automatics.
Autos became faster and more economical than manual in daily driving and straight line speed about a decade or so ago - although there's still a fair few poor examples out there.
granada203028 said:
I would put my money on the ICE with a torque converter automatic and the driver doing a stalled start.
And this (my bold) is exactly why BEVs are faster in the real world, because no driver does a "stalled" start at the lights in reality, whereas with a BEV you can literally roll away at less than walking pace, then decide to floor it, and bam, instant peak longitudinal accel. If you trickle off the line at 1200 rpm in an ICE, then floor it, it's too late to change your mind. And of course, because a BEV doesn't need to "Rev up it's engine" or make any noise, you can't tell how fast the BEV is going to leave the line, it looks and sounds exactly the same doing a 25 sec 0-60 as a 2.5 sec 0 - 60 :-)Also, ime with 6 years of BEV ownership, people drive BEVs harder in terms of accel simpy because it really doesn't sound like your are thrashing them. A full racing start, required to get your ICE to it's claimed 0-60 is a pretty dramatic and dramatic sounding and feeling afair, even in a modern DSG/Auto, whereas in a BEV it's near silent, smooth, and other than a large longitudinal accel, really doesn't feel like you are "hurting" the car doing it.
Max_Torque said:
granada203028 said:
I would put my money on the ICE with a torque converter automatic and the driver doing a stalled start.
And this (my bold) is exactly why BEVs are faster in the real world, because no driver does a "stalled" start at the lights in reality, whereas with a BEV you can literally roll away at less than walking pace, then decide to floor it, and bam, instant peak longitudinal accel. If you trickle off the line at 1200 rpm in an ICE, then floor it, it's too late to change your mind. And of course, because a BEV doesn't need to "Rev up it's engine" or make any noise, you can't tell how fast the BEV is going to leave the line, it looks and sounds exactly the same doing a 25 sec 0-60 as a 2.5 sec 0 - 60 :-)Also, ime with 6 years of BEV ownership, people drive BEVs harder in terms of accel simpy because it really doesn't sound like your are thrashing them. A full racing start, required to get your ICE to it's claimed 0-60 is a pretty dramatic and dramatic sounding and feeling afair, even in a modern DSG/Auto, whereas in a BEV it's near silent, smooth, and other than a large longitudinal accel, really doesn't feel like you are "hurting" the car doing it.
Silly behaviour of course, but a true PH'r has to try these things
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