Charging points rolled back - quietly.
Discussion
Reflects real life usage really. Car park destination chargers are only useful if there are loads of them (think 1 per car) and you’re there all day. What point will there be having one charger in your office car park delivering just 20 miles per hour when there are 20 staff members with EVs?
What we really need with modern EVs is big reliable banks of Supercharger-style very fast chargers.
Most people would charge once a week and that would meet their needs.
What we really need with modern EVs is big reliable banks of Supercharger-style very fast chargers.
Most people would charge once a week and that would meet their needs.
Rapid chargers in car parks would mostly be a waste of time and money. Much better to have large banks of slower chargers in places where people naturally dwell anyway, such as at work or shopping centres.
What's the problem with having 10-20 AC chargers at work? Most people do not need a full charge every day.
What's the problem with having 10-20 AC chargers at work? Most people do not need a full charge every day.
aestetix1 said:
Rapid chargers in car parks would mostly be a waste of time and money. Much better to have large banks of slower chargers in places where people naturally dwell anyway, such as at work or shopping centres.
What's the problem with having 10-20 AC chargers at work? Most people do not need a full charge every day.
But in rotation over a week everyone could get their full weeks charge. What's the problem with having 10-20 AC chargers at work? Most people do not need a full charge every day.
I’d say 200 cars all EVs that’s what you need to plan for. However if WFH is going to be a far bigger thing then genuinely people should be extremely worried as if you can do it here in U.K. from home then why not in India where it’s 5x++ cheaper to do? Why car allowances why allow electric car salary sacrifice?
This just comes down to money, there is very little to no money to be made in slow chargers (or any chargers really).
Income from a 7 kW charger being used six hours a day for 365 days a year, charging 35p a kW take off the cost of electric @20p a kW leaves you £2299.5 a year from each charger.
Take off groundworks and charger, take off payment system and admin, take off ongoing maintenance, you are left with the square route of sod all.
Income from a 7 kW charger being used six hours a day for 365 days a year, charging 35p a kW take off the cost of electric @20p a kW leaves you £2299.5 a year from each charger.
Take off groundworks and charger, take off payment system and admin, take off ongoing maintenance, you are left with the square route of sod all.
TheRainMaker said:
This just comes down to money, there is very little to no money to be made in slow chargers (or any chargers really).
Income from a 7 kW charger being used six hours a day for 365 days a year, charging 35p a kW take off the cost of electric @20p a kW leaves you £2299.5 a year from each charger.
Take off groundworks and charger, take off payment system and admin, take off ongoing maintenance, you are left with the square route of sod all.
Unless there are subsidies from the govt then prices per therm need to increase. Income from a 7 kW charger being used six hours a day for 365 days a year, charging 35p a kW take off the cost of electric @20p a kW leaves you £2299.5 a year from each charger.
Take off groundworks and charger, take off payment system and admin, take off ongoing maintenance, you are left with the square route of sod all.
All those without ability to charge at home need to charge in parking lots.
Welshbeef said:
Sensible. Forcing businesses to install infrastructure where there is no commercial benefit is prudent. Businesses are all fitting chargers where there is a business case. No need for govt interference just like there is no need for taxpayer money to be spent on chargers.
Refuelling is the preserve of private enterprise. The only role Govt should play is in ensuring stable energy supply from the utilities along with gentle guidance to limit silliness.
Businesses that fail to cater for their customer needs will simply fail to retain those customers. Employers that fail to cater for their employee needs will fail to attract those employees.
Welshbeef said:
Unless there are subsidies from the govt then prices per therm need to increase.
All those without ability to charge at home need to charge in parking lots.
Yup. And when do they need to be able to do that? Tomorrow? Or maybe in 10-20 years when those people start buying EVs? All those without ability to charge at home need to charge in parking lots.
I know that you are really keen to find very serious problems and are struggling to find any so let me give you a helping hand with a little clue: underground car parks. Have a look at what's going to happen as more cars using them are EVs. That'll give you a genuine issue to get your teeth into.
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. And when do they need to be able to do that? Tomorrow? Or maybe in 10-20 years when those people start buying EVs?
I know that you are really keen to find very serious problems and are struggling to find any so let me give you a helping hand with a little clue: underground car parks. Have a look at what's going to happen as more cars using them are EVs. That'll give you a genuine issue to get your teeth into.
The way I like to see things is identify all issues & then are the game changers or real blockers. Then we need a plan or plans to mitigate. I know that you are really keen to find very serious problems and are struggling to find any so let me give you a helping hand with a little clue: underground car parks. Have a look at what's going to happen as more cars using them are EVs. That'll give you a genuine issue to get your teeth into.
I think EVs for say SUVs people carriers are a great idea. Lots of instant max torque, perfect for zero emissions to school clubs etc. and lugging 7 adults with luggage no issue at all. I’d far rather one over our MPV
However the way we use ours involves big miles reasonably often.
On street charging is irrelevant to us but is to countless others - as if there isn’t a solution it means they will hugely occupy filling stations which on a long trip would impact me
Ignoring problems or meh is simply avoiding a real issue. Take the challenge let’s get a solution instead.
No one wants our taxes wasted & we don’t want to needlessly go through the pain of Betamax v vhs if possible.
DonkeyApple said:
Sensible. Forcing businesses to install infrastructure where there is no commercial benefit is prudent.
Businesses are all fitting chargers where there is a business case. No need for govt interference just like there is no need for taxpayer money to be spent on chargers.
Refuelling is the preserve of private enterprise. The only role Govt should play is in ensuring stable energy supply from the utilities along with gentle guidance to limit silliness.
Businesses that fail to cater for their customer needs will simply fail to retain those customers. Employers that fail to cater for their employee needs will fail to attract those employees.
agree in part, but govt does have a role in long term 'nudging'. they don't normally get it right though!Businesses are all fitting chargers where there is a business case. No need for govt interference just like there is no need for taxpayer money to be spent on chargers.
Refuelling is the preserve of private enterprise. The only role Govt should play is in ensuring stable energy supply from the utilities along with gentle guidance to limit silliness.
Businesses that fail to cater for their customer needs will simply fail to retain those customers. Employers that fail to cater for their employee needs will fail to attract those employees.
rather than give grants for cars ( esp hybrids!) I would have encouraged infrastructure more, such as charging points in govt offices and car parks. Then let the market work via BIK and growing aspiration to buy shiny new things from Elon.
I think govt is better at sticks. leave carrots to private enterprise.
hyphen said:
DonkeyApple said:
Sensible...
Sends the message though that the 2030/2035 deadlines is not set in stone, and suggests likely to be missed.As it's not the eco ministers in charge, but the economy ministers.
Personally, I don't see that as likely as there will be a big supply of used, there will be a considerable range of bottom of the market new EVs, batteries will be higher quality, there will be a large consumer charging network offering a wide range of solutions and most importantly, finance will adapt to fit. There's absolutely no reason why you can't structure a portable ten year deal on a new car, we don't currently because everyone is happy to pay massively over the a for short term, unportable deals.
I don't see any issue re charging, usage or cost by 2035, even if every new car bought going forward is an EV, which we are well over a decade away from and in 2035 there will remain millions of nearly new ICE vehicles on U.K. roads.
However, where I do see an issue is transport security as it a backbone to economic security and also tied to energy security.
The ideal, secure environment for the U.K. is to retain a viable percentage of vehicles running off a viable remnant of the petrol/diesel infrastructure. As an island that conducts very abnormally high levels of international business we have an economy that is abnormally inflated and at considerable risk to external global affairs. Ensuring smooth transport, like the energy it is built upon, is far more critical here than in most other places.
DonkeyApple said:
Indeed. Not a deliberate message but reminds us, along with other more recent events, that 2035 will go in the bin if by that date almost everyone, ie the lowest paid workers, cannot switch due to economic reasons.
Personally, I don't see that as likely as there will be a big supply of used, there will be a considerable range of bottom of the market new EVs, batteries will be higher quality, there will be a large consumer charging network offering a wide range of solutions and most importantly, finance will adapt to fit. There's absolutely no reason why you can't structure a portable ten year deal on a new car, we don't currently because everyone is happy to pay massively over the a for short term, unportable deals.
I don't see any issue re charging, usage or cost by 2035, even if every new car bought going forward is an EV, which we are well over a decade away from and in 2035 there will remain millions of nearly new ICE vehicles on U.K. roads.
However, where I do see an issue is transport security as it a backbone to economic security and also tied to energy security.
The ideal, secure environment for the U.K. is to retain a viable percentage of vehicles running off a viable remnant of the petrol/diesel infrastructure. As an island that conducts very abnormally high levels of international business we have an economy that is abnormally inflated and at considerable risk to external global affairs. Ensuring smooth transport, like the energy it is built upon, is far more critical here than in most other places.
There isn’t yet a viable solution to commercial vehicles - as per one of the Harry’s Garage videos where the CEO of JCB took us through the reality Personally, I don't see that as likely as there will be a big supply of used, there will be a considerable range of bottom of the market new EVs, batteries will be higher quality, there will be a large consumer charging network offering a wide range of solutions and most importantly, finance will adapt to fit. There's absolutely no reason why you can't structure a portable ten year deal on a new car, we don't currently because everyone is happy to pay massively over the a for short term, unportable deals.
I don't see any issue re charging, usage or cost by 2035, even if every new car bought going forward is an EV, which we are well over a decade away from and in 2035 there will remain millions of nearly new ICE vehicles on U.K. roads.
However, where I do see an issue is transport security as it a backbone to economic security and also tied to energy security.
The ideal, secure environment for the U.K. is to retain a viable percentage of vehicles running off a viable remnant of the petrol/diesel infrastructure. As an island that conducts very abnormally high levels of international business we have an economy that is abnormally inflated and at considerable risk to external global affairs. Ensuring smooth transport, like the energy it is built upon, is far more critical here than in most other places.
CABC said:
agree in part, but govt does have a role in long term 'nudging'. they don't normally get it right though!
rather than give grants for cars ( esp hybrids!) I would have encouraged infrastructure more, such as charging points in govt offices and car parks. Then let the market work via BIK and growing aspiration to buy shiny new things from Elon.
I think govt is better at sticks. leave carrots to private enterprise.
The grants are, in reality, subsidies to the manufacturers. Subsidies which they don't need as legislation means that if they wish to remain sellers in the market they have to offer the product. I'd prefer it that once the subsidies are done away with the manufacturers have to finance a public chargers for every 5 or 10 cars they sell. The Govt can set out a map as to where they are to go to be of best use but the car companies should be among the group that pay for them with the taxpayer not being on the list at all. rather than give grants for cars ( esp hybrids!) I would have encouraged infrastructure more, such as charging points in govt offices and car parks. Then let the market work via BIK and growing aspiration to buy shiny new things from Elon.
I think govt is better at sticks. leave carrots to private enterprise.
Agree that legislation and guidance is all the Go t really needs to be involved in. Paying for the charging infrastructure is the remit of fuel vendors, retailers, employers and new enterprise. Exactly as we're currently seeing being rolled out.
Welshbeef said:
But in rotation over a week everyone could get their full weeks charge.
What a mad idea."Sorry to hear you're running low but your turn on the charger isn't until Friday."
The reason chargers are under-used is because of the lack of certainty of availability. "Sorry mate, it's bank holiday weekend and you're tenth in the queue."
Panamax said:
Welshbeef said:
But in rotation over a week everyone could get their full weeks charge.
What a mad idea."Sorry to hear you're running low but your turn on the charger isn't until Friday."
The reason chargers are under-used is because of the lack of certainty of availability. "Sorry mate, it's bank holiday weekend and you're tenth in the queue."
We currently have two free chargers at work and it’s the latest cause of office politic problems. People literally plug in for an hour if they arrive first even though they have 80% charge!
Car parks that want to service EVs are installing chargers. Businesses that wish to cater for EV drivers are installing chargers. Employers that wish to employ EV drivers are installing chargers. Streets were residents are willing and need to pay for charging are installing chargers.
In 2021 any act of commerce which currently is or wants to entertain EV drivers is adding chargers.
And so it will continue. And in years to come, once those who cannot home charge start switching there will be an acceleration of charger growth. And so it will continue exactly as it is already for all to see.
If you cannot charge at home and where you live and move doesn't have a plentiful supply then it simply means you'll have to wait a little bit along with the other millions.
Of all the potential issues switching the U.K. to EVs over the next 30 years, charging points really isn't any kind of hurdle, merely just a matter of time.
At the moment we have the slightly unusually scenario that most EV owners, all 7 of them, see chargers almost anywhere they go yet have no need of them because they have one at home.
In 2021 any act of commerce which currently is or wants to entertain EV drivers is adding chargers.
And so it will continue. And in years to come, once those who cannot home charge start switching there will be an acceleration of charger growth. And so it will continue exactly as it is already for all to see.
If you cannot charge at home and where you live and move doesn't have a plentiful supply then it simply means you'll have to wait a little bit along with the other millions.
Of all the potential issues switching the U.K. to EVs over the next 30 years, charging points really isn't any kind of hurdle, merely just a matter of time.
At the moment we have the slightly unusually scenario that most EV owners, all 7 of them, see chargers almost anywhere they go yet have no need of them because they have one at home.
giveitfish said:
Reflects real life usage really. Car park destination chargers are only useful if there are loads of them (think 1 per car) and you’re there all day. What point will there be having one charger in your office car park delivering just 20 miles per hour when there are 20 staff members with EVs?
What we really need with modern EVs is big reliable banks of Supercharger-style very fast chargers.
Most people would charge once a week and that would meet their needs.
Surely it depends on the business?What we really need with modern EVs is big reliable banks of Supercharger-style very fast chargers.
Most people would charge once a week and that would meet their needs.
I go to work book on then away for 6-9 hours so 3 or 7kwh chargers are fine, I can only move my car the odd time when my break is at the same place I book on
If you are able to move the car due to working at a fixed location after being fully charged from a fast charger then fast chargers are ok, no useless for my company
A company isn't going to want staff fannying about on company time playing at moving cars about. A company isn't going to give away any more electricity than it needs to or of charging a fee not have them being used as long as possible. Very basic chargers needed for most staff with some fast chargers for corporate customers or to meet specific staff needs.
Welshbeef said:
Would the EV chargers be replacing the petrol pumps that are now installed at parking lots?Oh, wait, they fill up with petrol at a petrol station don't they? Maybe they should apply the same thinking to EV's. No need to have charging stations everywhere
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