545 mile day tomorrow....
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
FiF said:
Last time I looked his 2nd fastest car doing the complete 1000km trip was a Citroen eC4. That was couple of months ago.
Nope.Citroen was 11:15hr. Not fast by any means and aided by mild ambient temperatures.
https://www.carblogger.nl/1000km-test-elektrische-...
Still wouldn't want to deny you the opportunity to be all superior.
Also, no I've worked it out.
Its no cheaper than having a car doing circa 50mpg on a 'run'. Think the whole day cost me about 40mins extra(which isn't that bad).
As someone mentioned above, the key is to charge when your car will take the greatest 'pull' off the charger, so like a longer splash and dash.
Its no cheaper than having a car doing circa 50mpg on a 'run'. Think the whole day cost me about 40mins extra(which isn't that bad).
As someone mentioned above, the key is to charge when your car will take the greatest 'pull' off the charger, so like a longer splash and dash.
jason61c said:
Also, no I've worked it out.
Its no cheaper than having a car doing circa 50mpg on a 'run'. Think the whole day cost me about 40mins extra(which isn't that bad).
As someone mentioned above, the key is to charge when your car will take the greatest 'pull' off the charger, so like a longer splash and dash.
surely its got to be cheaper than a car doing 50mpg? thats suprising!Its no cheaper than having a car doing circa 50mpg on a 'run'. Think the whole day cost me about 40mins extra(which isn't that bad).
As someone mentioned above, the key is to charge when your car will take the greatest 'pull' off the charger, so like a longer splash and dash.
mine has just updated and the auto wipers definately worked bettter on the way into work this morning.
Richard-G said:
surely its got to be cheaper than a car doing 50mpg? thats suprising!
mine has just updated and the auto wipers definately worked bettter on the way into work this morning.
It used to be fair to say that public rapid charging (and certainly the very fastest chargers) aren't intended to provide the best value for money. Home charging is where all the savings are (and the odd free public options)mine has just updated and the auto wipers definately worked bettter on the way into work this morning.
That situation is a bit grey at the moment as domestic electric prices are capped circa 21p but that's likely to grow significantly.
Then there's the savings from congestion charges etc
Richard-G said:
surely its got to be cheaper than a car doing 50mpg? thats suprising!
Supercharger rates are now 40p/kWh in some sites I think, at 4 miles per kWh that 10p per mile, not far off a 50mpg car even at £1.40/l.Uncapped domestic electricity rates are currently running at a crazy 50p/kWh, so we have to assume DC rapid charging rate will be going up in 2022 to reflect the higher cost of electricity.
We all knew fuel price party with combustion cars would come for EVs, but its come alot quicker than anyone has predicted. Bare in mind EVs currently aren't subject to any where near the fuel duty of combustion cars. It wouldn't be a surprise to see EVs costing MORE to refuel and SLOWER to refuel than combustion cars way before 2030. This is probably what the government wants, as reducing car usage overall is what's needed, rather than a move from combustion to EVs.
Richard-G said:
Can i ask why? ive just taken delivery of a 2021 model 3 LR and its really comfy, quiet and serene. The thing nearly drives itself!
Seems like a fantastic car so far so im intertested in hearing why you think it might be hellish?
For me it was really uncomfortable. The whole car is very low, and the seating position almost recumbent. Does by back in after a while because either I have my knees uncomfortably high up, or put too much weight on my lower back. I'm 180cm tall, fairly average for a man.Seems like a fantastic car so far so im intertested in hearing why you think it might be hellish?
Other people have reported different experiences, maybe it's the ratio of body to leg or something. I much prefer cars where you sit more upright.
gangzoom said:
Supercharger rates are now 40p/kWh in some sites I think, at 4 miles per kWh that 10p per mile, not far off a 50mpg car even at £1.40/l.
Uncapped domestic electricity rates are currently running at a crazy 50p/kWh, so we have to assume DC rapid charging rate will be going up in 2022 to reflect the higher cost of electricity.
We all knew fuel price party with combustion cars would come for EVs, but its come alot quicker than anyone has predicted. Bare in mind EVs currently aren't subject to any where near the fuel duty of combustion cars. It wouldn't be a surprise to see EVs costing MORE to refuel and SLOWER to refuel than combustion cars way before 2030. This is probably what the government wants, as reducing car usage overall is what's needed, rather than a move from combustion to EVs.
^^this^^Uncapped domestic electricity rates are currently running at a crazy 50p/kWh, so we have to assume DC rapid charging rate will be going up in 2022 to reflect the higher cost of electricity.
We all knew fuel price party with combustion cars would come for EVs, but its come alot quicker than anyone has predicted. Bare in mind EVs currently aren't subject to any where near the fuel duty of combustion cars. It wouldn't be a surprise to see EVs costing MORE to refuel and SLOWER to refuel than combustion cars way before 2030. This is probably what the government wants, as reducing car usage overall is what's needed, rather than a move from combustion to EVs.
Politicians such as Khan are anti all car types despite his rhetoric.
Whether he can balance the books by steering people onto public transport remains to be seen.
Evanivitch said:
Richard-G said:
surely its got to be cheaper than a car doing 50mpg? thats suprising!
mine has just updated and the auto wipers definately worked bettter on the way into work this morning.
It used to be fair to say that public rapid charging (and certainly the very fastest chargers) aren't intended to provide the best value for money. Home charging is where all the savings are (and the odd free public options)mine has just updated and the auto wipers definately worked bettter on the way into work this morning.
That situation is a bit grey at the moment as domestic electric prices are capped circa 21p but that's likely to grow significantly.
Then there's the savings from congestion charges etc
Currently I'm on a capped tariff at home, all that will change when the caps are lifted next year.
There's a sensible discussion to be had about the cost savings(not existing) along with any 'green' benefits and how they're calculated.
Bo_apex said:
^^this^^
Politicians such as Khan are anti all car types despite his rhetoric.
Whether he can balance the books by steering people onto public transport remains to be seen.
TfL has the benefit of being able to level movement taxes now on all vehicles within its remit. Khan is a massive car fan and doesn't really care about the environment, why else would he opt to be driven about in a Range Rover;). He's a fan of money to fuel his history book entries, as are all those who cherish such positions in life but whereas the previous one sought his funding from private enterprise, this one looks to the people directly. CCZ will drop the EV exemption in 2025 but now ULEZ is in place the clock is ticking for the charging of all vehicles. I'm not personally against that as we are a capitalist city that definitely should levy a fee on using the roads as we levy a fee for using the trains or buses and obviously, all vehicles form the congestion which is the primary driver of pollution even if they don't pollute via direct emissions. I also suspect that EVs will lead to increased congestion as a weird byproduct of switching to EV is that many urban users lose their guilt over using their car for short journeys so end up driving more frequently. Time will tell. Politicians such as Khan are anti all car types despite his rhetoric.
Whether he can balance the books by steering people onto public transport remains to be seen.
But inner London isn't the U.K. and it is worrying that on certain public chargers we are close to petrol cost parity already when there is next to no taxation for the Govt. Competition will help with that in due course but it is desirable to have fuel taxes so as to limit the need to implement other taxes to cover.
The other little quirk is the corporate quandary. When you put employees into cars to travel on business they are doing that travelling, a period of zero production, at your expense. So you have the dilemma that you want your employee to be driving electric for the tax and PR benefits but you don't want to be adding an hour of downtime, additional zero productivity to your books when you send that person out. Losing an hour of time on a personal trip is a bit of a non issue, especially as we aren't actually losing any liesure time just changing its nature but for a company it's not an insignificant cost that will probably be handled by changing national roles to regional ones and even shrinking some regions so that the employee has no need to be charging on company time. Like having a dump, you want them to be doing it on their time rather than paying them to do it on yours.
Given that the charging network over the next 15 years is going to continue exploding and free EV users from the reliance of singular refuelling points and high premiums, EVs are going to get cheaper as more sub brands are able to enter at their price points, companies are going to adjust employee roles to take advantage of EVs, EV ranges will expand and used stocks continually grow, the experience of the OP yesterday in carrying out a really rather crappy and anomalous car journey at a pretty crappy time of year without any great time penalty, does make it rather clear to all that due to our small and very high average population density island there is going to be next to no issue transitioning to EVs other than time and as that time currently looks to be 20-30 years then there is little to concern ourselves over other than the loss of fun petrol cars and the pleasure they give, if that's even your bag which for the majority it isn't. For most enthusiasts it's what's on top of the bonnet not underneath it that is important.
aestetix1 said:
Richard-G said:
Can i ask why? ive just taken delivery of a 2021 model 3 LR and its really comfy, quiet and serene. The thing nearly drives itself!
Seems like a fantastic car so far so im intertested in hearing why you think it might be hellish?
For me it was really uncomfortable. The whole car is very low, and the seating position almost recumbent. Does by back in after a while because either I have my knees uncomfortably high up, or put too much weight on my lower back. I'm 180cm tall, fairly average for a man.Seems like a fantastic car so far so im intertested in hearing why you think it might be hellish?
Other people have reported different experiences, maybe it's the ratio of body to leg or something. I much prefer cars where you sit more upright.
my other half did grumble about the seat bases not being that long.
DonkeyApple said:
Bo_apex said:
^^this^^
Politicians such as Khan are anti all car types despite his rhetoric.
Whether he can balance the books by steering people onto public transport remains to be seen.
For most duties it's what's on top of the bonnet not underneath it that is important. Politicians such as Khan are anti all car types despite his rhetoric.
Whether he can balance the books by steering people onto public transport remains to be seen.
We'll be adding a small EV next year for city use, leaving the V8 stuff for long / pleasure trips.
Are we saying Khan is a covert communist ?
jason61c said:
Evanivitch said:
Richard-G said:
surely its got to be cheaper than a car doing 50mpg? thats suprising!
mine has just updated and the auto wipers definately worked bettter on the way into work this morning.
It used to be fair to say that public rapid charging (and certainly the very fastest chargers) aren't intended to provide the best value for money. Home charging is where all the savings are (and the odd free public options)mine has just updated and the auto wipers definately worked bettter on the way into work this morning.
That situation is a bit grey at the moment as domestic electric prices are capped circa 21p but that's likely to grow significantly.
Then there's the savings from congestion charges etc
Currently I'm on a capped tariff at home, all that will change when the caps are lifted next year.
There's a sensible discussion to be had about the cost savings(not existing) along with any 'green' benefits and how they're calculated.
Our current EV (eTron 55) averages around 2.5 mil/kWh so one of the least efficient about. A comparable ICE vehicle (Q7 55 TFSI) averages about 26MPG.
1000 miles in the Q7 at current prices would cost £250, so 25p per mile. The eTron would need 4.7 full charges to do 1000 miles, so 4.7 x 85kW = 400kWh
Electricity would have to cost 62.5p per kWh for the cost to be the same, and I'd still take the EV as quicker and more refined.
SWoll said:
jason61c said:
Evanivitch said:
Richard-G said:
surely its got to be cheaper than a car doing 50mpg? thats suprising!
mine has just updated and the auto wipers definately worked bettter on the way into work this morning.
It used to be fair to say that public rapid charging (and certainly the very fastest chargers) aren't intended to provide the best value for money. Home charging is where all the savings are (and the odd free public options)mine has just updated and the auto wipers definately worked bettter on the way into work this morning.
That situation is a bit grey at the moment as domestic electric prices are capped circa 21p but that's likely to grow significantly.
Then there's the savings from congestion charges etc
Currently I'm on a capped tariff at home, all that will change when the caps are lifted next year.
There's a sensible discussion to be had about the cost savings(not existing) along with any 'green' benefits and how they're calculated.
Our current EV (eTron 55) averages around 2.5 mil/kWh so one of the least efficient about. A comparable ICE vehicle (Q7 55 TFSI) averages about 26MPG.
1000 miles in the Q7 at current prices would cost £250, so 25p per mile. The eTron would need 4.7 full charges to do 1000 miles, so 4.7 x 85kW = 400kWh
Electricity would have to cost 62.5p per kWh for the cost to be the same, and I'd still take the EV as quicker and more refined.
ETron seems a nice bit of kit
gangzoom said:
Richard-G said:
surely its got to be cheaper than a car doing 50mpg? thats surprising!
Supercharger rates are now 40p/kWh in some sites I think, at 4 miles per kWh that 10p per mile, not far off a 50mpg car even at £1.40/l.Uncapped domestic electricity rates are currently running at a crazy 50p/kWh, so we have to assume DC rapid charging rate will be going up in 2022 to reflect the higher cost of electricity.
We all knew fuel price party with combustion cars would come for EVs, but its come alot quicker than anyone has predicted. Bare in mind EVs currently aren't subject to any where near the fuel duty of combustion cars. It wouldn't be a surprise to see EVs costing MORE to refuel and SLOWER to refuel than combustion cars way before 2030. This is probably what the government wants, as reducing car usage overall is what's needed, rather than a move from combustion to EVs.
Because it's a hazardous,flamable and potentially explosive substance, to sell petrol you need to have a licenced dispensing outlet, ie a service station, and the infrastructure (the under ground tanks, delivery tanker and fire service access, and the pumps themselves) is expensive to install. So realistically, competition in the refueling market place is naturally limited, ie you won't make any money simply putting in a cheap fuels station.
With recharging EV's that is not the case. A BEV charger is actually a pretty simple, reasonably low cost device, which costs far less than a petrol pump and it's support services. So what i suspect will happen is that today, yes, with the sparse public fast charging network and captive users, operators can indeed charge "high" prices, but soon, those high prices will, as is the way with capitalism, drive the installtion of competitor charging infrastructure, and without the necessary safety and licencing infrastructure required for liquid hydrocarbon refuelling, it will be quick and easy for that to happen.
In the same way that few drivers will pay £1.60 a litre at a main road service station if the one round the corner sells the same fuel for £1.40, few EV drivers will plug into a 40p/kWh fast charger if there is one near at 35p/kWh etc!
What is unknown is what the taxation position will be on electricity used for road transport. IMO, the Gov will simply roll out manditory road charging and be done with it. Easier, cheaper and fairer than adding some sort of 'lecy tax......
(as mentioned, even worst case, using only very expensive public charging, a BEV is still much cheaper than a comparable ICE, as you won't be averaging anywhere near 50mpg driving a largish high performance ICE....)
SWoll said:
Very much down to what you cars are comparing, how much public charging you do and general use of the vehicle.
Our current EV (eTron 55) averages around 2.5 mil/kWh so one of the least efficient about. A comparable ICE vehicle (Q7 55 TFSI) averages about 26MPG.
1000 miles in the Q7 at current prices would cost £250, so 25p per mile. The eTron would need 4.7 full charges to do 1000 miles, so 4.7 x 85kW = 400kWh
Electricity would have to cost 62.5p per kWh for the cost to be the same, and I'd still take the EV as quicker and more refined.
Ionity already costs 69p/kWh for non-subscription users. When you consider the price of wholesale electricity, other suppliers will follow (plus the VAT rule clarification)Our current EV (eTron 55) averages around 2.5 mil/kWh so one of the least efficient about. A comparable ICE vehicle (Q7 55 TFSI) averages about 26MPG.
1000 miles in the Q7 at current prices would cost £250, so 25p per mile. The eTron would need 4.7 full charges to do 1000 miles, so 4.7 x 85kW = 400kWh
Electricity would have to cost 62.5p per kWh for the cost to be the same, and I'd still take the EV as quicker and more refined.
Max_Torque said:
In the same way that few drivers will pay £1.60 a litre at a main road service station if the one round the corner sells the same fuel for £1.40, few EV drivers will plug into a 40p/kWh fast charger if there is one near at 35p/kWh etc!
Have you noticed just how popular main service stations remain ?Re: Recharging. There will be a tipping point when charging networks will charge what they like per unit, unless Gov steps in / nationalises.
Bo_apex said:
Have you noticed just how popular main service stations remain ?
Re: Recharging. There will be a tipping point when charging networks will charge what they like per unit, unless Gov steps in / nationalises.
There really won't. The more chargers levy away from an acceptable spread the more competition will arise within metres of every exit. Re: Recharging. There will be a tipping point when charging networks will charge what they like per unit, unless Gov steps in / nationalises.
Motorway services are massively on the back foot with regards to trying to retain business going forward because they have legislation, restrictions and costs that other land owners at actual exits do not have the burden of.
Nor does anyone in their right mind want any Govt interference beyond a set of industry standards via license or regulation to limit worst practice. Nationalisation is the battlecry of the man who either has no living memory or who just loves the smell of tramp piss and destroyed property.
What motorway services do show is that people really aren't price sensitive when it comes to valuing money against the perceived value of their time. Consumers very happily overpay to get a spending fix. Just look at the absolute s
te on the shelves of the generic chain stores inside a motorway emporium!!! It's absolutely staggering the tat you can flog punters after they've been in a car for an hour away from shops, or the mark up you can slap on it. Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff