545 mile day tomorrow....
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
Bo_apex said:
Have you noticed just how popular main service stations remain ?
Re: Recharging. There will be a tipping point when charging networks will charge what they like per unit, unless Gov steps in / nationalises.
There really won't. The more chargers levy away from an acceptable spread the more competition will arise within metres of every exit. Re: Recharging. There will be a tipping point when charging networks will charge what they like per unit, unless Gov steps in / nationalises.
Motorway services are massively on the back foot with regards to trying to retain business going forward because they have legislation, restrictions and costs that other land owners at actual exits do not have the burden of.
Nor does anyone in their right mind want any Govt interference beyond a set of industry standards via license or regulation to limit worst practice. Nationalisation is the battlecry of the man who either has no living memory or who just loves the smell of tramp piss and destroyed property.
What motorway services do show is that people really aren't price sensitive when it comes to valuing money against the perceived value of their time. Consumers very happily overpay to get a spending fix. Just look at the absolute s
te on the shelves of the generic chain stores inside a motorway emporium!!! It's absolutely staggering the tat you can flog punters after they've been in a car for an hour away from shops, or the mark up you can slap on it. The electorate kept Corbyn out and so rumours of nationalisation are far fetched for the medium term at least.
I can well imagine motorway fatigue affecting consumer spending habits at services hubs
Motorway services will be rubbing their hands at the thought of EV families trapped inside their emporiums for up to an hour at a time. All the ICE families will still be gone inside ten minutes.
Sensible-ish charging speeds and prices (not too fast as that would be self defeating) and the sandwiches can be whatever price they want.
Sensible-ish charging speeds and prices (not too fast as that would be self defeating) and the sandwiches can be whatever price they want.
andy43 said:
Motorway services will be rubbing their hands at the thought of EV families trapped inside their emporiums for up to an hour at a time. All the ICE families will still be gone inside ten minutes.
Sensible-ish charging speeds and prices (not too fast as that would be self defeating) and the sandwiches can be whatever price they want.
Why would EV owners be there upto an hour?Sensible-ish charging speeds and prices (not too fast as that would be self defeating) and the sandwiches can be whatever price they want.
Bo_apex said:
Fingers crossed the charging networks don't abuse their power. No pun intended.
The electorate kept Corbyn out and so rumours of nationalisation are far fetched for the medium term at least.
I can well imagine motorway fatigue affecting consumer spending habits at services hubs
Ultimately, who knows, they say that to forget history is to doom oneself to repeating it so with such a large and growing number of people with zero experience of nationalised enterprise along with an ever growing sense of entitlement and a belief that everything has to be given to them, it's sadly not hard to imagine people voting for a life of stale urine, vandalism and abject failure. The electorate kept Corbyn out and so rumours of nationalisation are far fetched for the medium term at least.
I can well imagine motorway fatigue affecting consumer spending habits at services hubs
However, our petrol vending network only exists as a function of how petrol cars refuel. EVs operate to a different set of criteria and so completely different economics and commerce. There are next to no EVs yet in the U.K. and very few of those travelling any great distances. This means that at present they have to fit in to 20th century legacy enterprise and thinking. Once we have a real chunk of cars on the road being EVs then they will begin to define their own refuelling network which is very unlikely to have much of an overlap with the legacy petrol selling shops as the needs and benefits are really very different.
Already you can see subtle changes such as most people with EVs are more likely to set off with a full tank, not really the case with our ICEs where we set off with whatever is left in the tank and will stop for five mins to chuck more in because it takes up little time. With an EV you will also be refuelling at the end of your journey, where you park so heading back fully fuelled. And should you need to refuel on the way because it's an abnormally long journey then you won't be restricted by a tiny number of licensed premises who's location is dictated by the highest levels of passing trade and the ability to ship in petrol efficiently but instead you'll have a plethora of choices along the whole route, made up of locations that humans actually enjoy spending time at rather than having no choice.
Current EV users just need to accept that the switch is barely underway and the big changes and evolutions have barely begun. Just like some ICE drivers need to accept that it may be 15-20 years before they can easily switch.
People have to also realise to meet the demand of a summer holiday /bank holiday is basically over cooking it and the infrastructure for 90% of the time, I don’t see how long term charging only business can operate and expect to meet that demand. Only the large players with charging and battery storage (to trade energy during the 90% typical demand period) will maintain any sort of credible business case.
Edited by JonnyVTEC on Wednesday 29th December 20:59
JonnyVTEC said:
People have to also realise to meet the demand of a summer holiday /bank holiday is basically over cooling it and the infrastructure for 90% of the time, I don’t see how long term charging only business can operate and expect to meet that demand. Only the large players with charging and battery storage (to trade energy during the 90% demand period) will maintain any sort of credible business case.
Tesla has used portable megapack Superchargers in the past. I wonder if something similar could work in UK. It would serve business conference and sporting events during the week and deploy to locations around the country during the peak travel events like holidays. You would need some interface to the grid, but perhaps not all the chargers that go with it.jason61c said:
its only motorway speeds where an ICE still might have the edge.
over every other type of use, the BEV will use less 'energy'.
er, a BEV uses less energy at at every speed! over every other type of use, the BEV will use less 'energy'.
A BEV doing a terrible 2.5 ml/kWh is still doing the equivalent of 120 mpg in energy consumption terms!
(and my little i3 can do over 6ml/kWh (~275 mpg) if driven very carefully. Name an ICE 4 seat mid sized car that gets to 60 in 6.9 sec and can do very nearly 300 mpg :-))
Max_Torque said:
jason61c said:
its only motorway speeds where an ICE still might have the edge.
over every other type of use, the BEV will use less 'energy'.
er, a BEV uses less energy at at every speed! over every other type of use, the BEV will use less 'energy'.
A BEV doing a terrible 2.5 ml/kWh is still doing the equivalent of 120 mpg in energy consumption terms!
(and my little i3 can do over 6ml/kWh (~275 mpg) if driven very carefully. Name an ICE 4 seat mid sized car that gets to 60 in 6.9 sec and can do very nearly 300 mpg :-))
JonnyVTEC said:
People have to also realise to meet the demand of a summer holiday /bank holiday is basically over cooling it and the infrastructure for 90% of the time, I don’t see how long term charging only business can operate and expect to meet that demand. Only the large players with charging and battery storage (to trade energy during the 90% demand period) will maintain any sort of credible business case.
Yup. That's another reason why EVs will break away from the network that was created to be as efficient as possible for a wholly different type of product. The slow rate of refuelling will be what defines the ultimate network and to cater for that, along with the restrictions on how much electricity can be drawn from a single point. All meaning that when we all migrate on the same day to the same place we are simply all peeling off at a hundred different exits to go for a top up at hundreds of different businesses offering charging, as opposed to all attempting to stop at one place where there is no business case to fit thousands of chargers that won't be used most of the time or even have the power to run them.
Any business remotely near a motorway exit that has spare car parking and is a business that offers something to a passing traveller can fit chargers and use pricing to bring in the type of customer they want or to just pull them away from a more expensive competitor.
For example, the Tescos at J11 will always be able to undercut the Moto at J10 because the rents that Tesco pays for the crappy bit of brownfield they built on is a fraction of the charges levied on the land motorway services are placed on. Food venues can undercut as can all sorts of businesses.
DonkeyApple said:
For example, the Tescos at J11 will always be able to undercut the Moto at J10 because the rents that Tesco pays for the crappy bit of brownfield they built on is a fraction of the charges levied on the land motorway services are placed on. Food venues can undercut as can all sorts of businesses.
This is particularly true in South Wales sections of the M4 because all the services are on motorway junctions anyway...My experiences of the non-supercharger network over the last 72 hours have been average to poor.
Usual(ish) run, Worcester to the far West of Cornwall. 235 miles or something. Polestar 2, 300kw AWD. Usually advertises itself between 250-270 miles range, getting a real 220 miles so far this winter, regularly saw 240-250 in summer. Headwind and standing water seem to make much more of a difference than temp, especially in South West.
Always used Ionity at M5 Cullompton as there is a deal for 30p/kwh electric through Plugsurfing/Polestar and they are fast reliable chargers. Leave home at 100%, arrive on 45-50%, top up to 80% in 15-20mins, then I'm gone, arriving with a good 30% depending on how much fun I've had teasing ICE'd cars on the way....
New Years eve, get to Cullompton, half way. New Plugsurfing app update. Which doesn't work with Ionity anymore. F**ksake. You can use the Plugsurfing charge card, which I have left at home and I never bother to carry as its cr@p and has never worked. The Gridserve unit is in use, so end up paying £20 for a charge at 69p kwh instead of the usual £5-7. Oh well, first time in probably 10-15 trips. It is what it is, life is too short. Deny myself a Big Mac to recoup losses.
Return journey this morning, left on 90%, got to Cullompton on 40%. Ionity connects, accepts payment, then nothing happens. Try another unit - the same. Taycan parked up, seems to be charging quite happily. Drive around to Gridserve unit which is empty. Plug in, present card, all good. Proceeds to charge at 52kwh instead of the advertised 120-150kw but does not seem to charge me!!! Loose patience at 55% and drive home at a more cautious 65mph just in case. Not a huge issue as M5 is busy anyway. Get home with 10% in the tank. Plenty of backups on route - J23 Bridgwater BP, then McDonalds at Cribs, Bristol, just cant be arsed to stop.
One day this coming summer, I'll be brave and do it in a oner.
Moral of the story: if I had to do lots of regular varied trips (especially for work) around the UK for work, I'd get a Tesla. Maybe I've just had a bad experience, this trip was the first faff we've really had in 14 months of Zoe ownership and 7 months of Polestar ownership, combined 35,000 miles.
Usual(ish) run, Worcester to the far West of Cornwall. 235 miles or something. Polestar 2, 300kw AWD. Usually advertises itself between 250-270 miles range, getting a real 220 miles so far this winter, regularly saw 240-250 in summer. Headwind and standing water seem to make much more of a difference than temp, especially in South West.
Always used Ionity at M5 Cullompton as there is a deal for 30p/kwh electric through Plugsurfing/Polestar and they are fast reliable chargers. Leave home at 100%, arrive on 45-50%, top up to 80% in 15-20mins, then I'm gone, arriving with a good 30% depending on how much fun I've had teasing ICE'd cars on the way....
New Years eve, get to Cullompton, half way. New Plugsurfing app update. Which doesn't work with Ionity anymore. F**ksake. You can use the Plugsurfing charge card, which I have left at home and I never bother to carry as its cr@p and has never worked. The Gridserve unit is in use, so end up paying £20 for a charge at 69p kwh instead of the usual £5-7. Oh well, first time in probably 10-15 trips. It is what it is, life is too short. Deny myself a Big Mac to recoup losses.
Return journey this morning, left on 90%, got to Cullompton on 40%. Ionity connects, accepts payment, then nothing happens. Try another unit - the same. Taycan parked up, seems to be charging quite happily. Drive around to Gridserve unit which is empty. Plug in, present card, all good. Proceeds to charge at 52kwh instead of the advertised 120-150kw but does not seem to charge me!!! Loose patience at 55% and drive home at a more cautious 65mph just in case. Not a huge issue as M5 is busy anyway. Get home with 10% in the tank. Plenty of backups on route - J23 Bridgwater BP, then McDonalds at Cribs, Bristol, just cant be arsed to stop.
One day this coming summer, I'll be brave and do it in a oner.
Moral of the story: if I had to do lots of regular varied trips (especially for work) around the UK for work, I'd get a Tesla. Maybe I've just had a bad experience, this trip was the first faff we've really had in 14 months of Zoe ownership and 7 months of Polestar ownership, combined 35,000 miles.
caymanbill said:
Why are some chargers selective about what cars they will or won't start to charge? Anyone knoe the technical reason?
is it not just like plugging somthing in to a wall socket? Why would the charger know/care what it's charging?
No. There's a communication interface as part of the RV car charging (that applies to everything from 3-pin EVSE and rapids). If the car and the wall/rapid device do not complete the 'handshake' correctly then cars will fail to charge.is it not just like plugging somthing in to a wall socket? Why would the charger know/care what it's charging?
It's an issue that's been seen on Zoe historically, as it was particularly fussy about the Ground performance on AC charging. And CCS has had quite widespread and poor consistency across manufacturers of both cars and chargers!
It shouldn't be difficult, just perform to the published Standard, but appears CCS is somewhat ambiguous. But then even VV messed up the physical plug on CCS for the ID3....
Chademo is historically much more consistent, but then only limited manufacturers have ever used it.
Evanivitch said:
DonkeyApple said:
For example, the Tescos at J11 will always be able to undercut the Moto at J10 because the rents that Tesco pays for the crappy bit of brownfield they built on is a fraction of the charges levied on the land motorway services are placed on. Food venues can undercut as can all sorts of businesses.
This is particularly true in South Wales sections of the M4 because all the services are on motorway junctions anyway...
Being able to break a long journey with a nice meal, at a nice place that is tied in with slopping 100 miles or so into the tank simultaneously will be quite a nice addition.
DonkeyApple said:
There's big commerce at pretty much every junctions from the start of the M4 so in time, when you need to drive from central London to the Gower you'll just stop wherever you fancy, for as long as you fancy and to do whatever you fancy. No more circus freak shows unless that's their bag.
Being able to break a long journey with a nice meal, at a nice place that is tied in with slopping 100 miles or so into the tank simultaneously will be quite a nice addition.
Only if you ignore the gap between Bristol and Swindon...Being able to break a long journey with a nice meal, at a nice place that is tied in with slopping 100 miles or so into the tank simultaneously will be quite a nice addition.
I done Exeter>Glasgow>Exeter back in October, in my Tesla M3P.
Absolute non event - i've done the same journey 20+ times over the years in various petrol and diesel cars and whilst i've done it quicker (early 20's, Audi RS4, solo, through the night!), it really didn't take me any longer than usual, in the Tesla.
The supercharger network is perfect; easily accesible, no queues, rapid, cheap, reliable.
More than once I whirr'd past EVs waiting for Ecotricity or Gridserve or whatever chargers in the motorway services, including a couple of really nice Taycans amongst them. I thought that must be a bit of a sourer for the owners, who could be in a top spec Model S/X and not have to wait to charge (slowly).
Once I got to the west of Scotland, I did have to deal with the ChargePlace Scotland network which was mostly 50kW chargers, not amazing but enough around to top up as required.
I would love a Taycan next but the charging infrastructure would definitely annoy me on journeys like that so it does throw up some questions and compromises. Day to day, no worries as I charge at home.
Absolute non event - i've done the same journey 20+ times over the years in various petrol and diesel cars and whilst i've done it quicker (early 20's, Audi RS4, solo, through the night!), it really didn't take me any longer than usual, in the Tesla.
The supercharger network is perfect; easily accesible, no queues, rapid, cheap, reliable.
More than once I whirr'd past EVs waiting for Ecotricity or Gridserve or whatever chargers in the motorway services, including a couple of really nice Taycans amongst them. I thought that must be a bit of a sourer for the owners, who could be in a top spec Model S/X and not have to wait to charge (slowly).
Once I got to the west of Scotland, I did have to deal with the ChargePlace Scotland network which was mostly 50kW chargers, not amazing but enough around to top up as required.
I would love a Taycan next but the charging infrastructure would definitely annoy me on journeys like that so it does throw up some questions and compromises. Day to day, no worries as I charge at home.
Evanivitch said:
DonkeyApple said:
There's big commerce at pretty much every junctions from the start of the M4 so in time, when you need to drive from central London to the Gower you'll just stop wherever you fancy, for as long as you fancy and to do whatever you fancy. No more circus freak shows unless that's their bag.
Being able to break a long journey with a nice meal, at a nice place that is tied in with slopping 100 miles or so into the tank simultaneously will be quite a nice addition.
Only if you ignore the gap between Bristol and Swindon...Being able to break a long journey with a nice meal, at a nice place that is tied in with slopping 100 miles or so into the tank simultaneously will be quite a nice addition.
Plus, Castle Combe will have fast charging in due course so you can just have Circuit Rentals waiting with a car, spend a couple of hours relaxing and then press on.
It's the ubiquity of electricity meeting the slow speed of refuelling that will allow us to completely change how, where and when we refuel. Plenty of people will want to remain with the legacy system that was created to suit petrol sales and the speed of car refuelling but plenty will relish the ability to completely break free from that legacy system designed decades ago for a completely different product.
Ultimately, some will be OK paying a hefty premium for electricity at a Services, hanging around in such a venue for a strangely long period of time and potentially having to queue at peak times due to power restrictions to the site. While others will never use the legacy system again and adjust to take advantage of the benefits presented by EVs in a small country such as the U.K.
Evanivitch said:
caymanbill said:
Why are some chargers selective about what cars they will or won't start to charge? Anyone knoe the technical reason?
is it not just like plugging somthing in to a wall socket? Why would the charger know/care what it's charging?
No. There's a communication interface as part of the RV car charging (that applies to everything from 3-pin EVSE and rapids). If the car and the wall/rapid device do not complete the 'handshake' correctly then cars will fail to charge.is it not just like plugging somthing in to a wall socket? Why would the charger know/care what it's charging?
It's an issue that's been seen on Zoe historically, as it was particularly fussy about the Ground performance on AC charging. And CCS has had quite widespread and poor consistency across manufacturers of both cars and chargers!
It shouldn't be difficult, just perform to the published Standard, but appears CCS is somewhat ambiguous. But then even VV messed up the physical plug on CCS for the ID3....
Chademo is historically much more consistent, but then only limited manufacturers have ever used it.
CCS "certification" (for chargers and vehicles) has only been available since very recently, so it should get better.
Most charger manufacturers seem to try and get hold of the most popular cars to check compatibility rather than just follow the standard.
Kempower chargers are the most reliable in my experience but they're not very common.
I had a brand new 150kW charger the other day that wouldn't charge a vehicle at all. They "fixed" it with a firmware update and it would then charge but only at 75kW because for some reason it was running at <500V despite the car and charger being 800V.
It's a real minefield at the moment, especially with new/obscure vehicles and some chargers.
It's actually an area that would be solved very quickly if we went down the route, as we have done in other areas, of allowing the customer to make a significant financial claim when hindered by an erroneous charger that is meeting a sensible base standard.
Making sure employees can get to work or move around for work is essential to the economy. If those people are expected to be using EVs then they need to be supported where there is commercial failure. By making companies subject to user led penalties you fix the problem quickly as private enterprise responds efficnetly and best to money going out the door and little else.
Making sure employees can get to work or move around for work is essential to the economy. If those people are expected to be using EVs then they need to be supported where there is commercial failure. By making companies subject to user led penalties you fix the problem quickly as private enterprise responds efficnetly and best to money going out the door and little else.
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