Seperate Meters for EV Chargers.
Discussion
kambites said:
....
They're not going to be able to recoup the revenue they lose in petrol tax by putting a higher tax on 5% of EV charging!
There are far, far easier ways to tax the use of EVs than trying to tax the "fuel".
'They' could always run a similar scheme to having different rates of duty for diesel - red diesel for off-road, and white diesel for transport.They're not going to be able to recoup the revenue they lose in petrol tax by putting a higher tax on 5% of EV charging!
There are far, far easier ways to tax the use of EVs than trying to tax the "fuel".
My supplier already offers 'green' electricity and normal. I think I must be on normal as mine seems to be colourless.
phil4 said:
I've seen this done years and years ago.
The company (AlertMe) who did this sold out to BG and became Hive.
In essence they monitored your usage and spotted particular patterns in it... for example a kettle is typically very quick ramp up, high use then drop. And EV charger again would be pretty straightforward as almost nothing would use 7KW for protracted periods. Most heaters would cycle on and off after initial heating, showers would be shorter use etc.
Basically dump some machine learning (I didn't say AI), and it'll be able to spot the patterns.
Yes but there are so many variables, i.e. circumstances where the responses may not be what they seem that I just can't see it being practical. And it overlooks the almost impossible ability to connect every home's charger up to their system, at least within the short term. The company (AlertMe) who did this sold out to BG and became Hive.
In essence they monitored your usage and spotted particular patterns in it... for example a kettle is typically very quick ramp up, high use then drop. And EV charger again would be pretty straightforward as almost nothing would use 7KW for protracted periods. Most heaters would cycle on and off after initial heating, showers would be shorter use etc.
Basically dump some machine learning (I didn't say AI), and it'll be able to spot the patterns.
Like most tech, the theory is great but the practical application is hugely more complex.
mickyh7 said:
dmsims said:
Electric shower?
Cooker, tumble dryer simultaneously ?
At 4 in the morning?Cooker, tumble dryer simultaneously ?
Don't forget about air source and ground source heat pumps, hot tubs, swimming pools, outdoor heaters, late night parties (New Year for example) etc. Granted, it is not a common way to use your electricity but in the UK with 28m households, only a tiny percentage using things this way can mean huge numbers of customers.
kambites said:
bigothunter said:
You may not be entirely sure but the authorities will be 
Different rates and taxation for charging EVs fits the agenda and answers the lost tax revenue issue. Must be on the cards
Quite possibly, but if they do it will be nothing to do with the meters, the data will come straight from the chargers themselves somehow. In which case many people will just switch to charging from a three-pin plug. Different rates and taxation for charging EVs fits the agenda and answers the lost tax revenue issue. Must be on the cards
The technology to capture EV charging from the same smart meter installation exists.
One of our subsidiaries in UK has a shed load of diesel vans and migrating to EV. The meter will enable staff to charge the van at home but the EV bill will be sent to their employer without any intervention from driver.
One of our subsidiaries in UK has a shed load of diesel vans and migrating to EV. The meter will enable staff to charge the van at home but the EV bill will be sent to their employer without any intervention from driver.
No ideas for a name said:
'They' could always run a similar scheme to having different rates of duty for diesel - red diesel for off-road, and white diesel for transport.
My supplier already offers 'green' electricity and normal. I think I must be on normal as mine seems to be colourless.
Except you can't take an EV's battery apart to see if it's been stained by using the wrong electricity. My supplier already offers 'green' electricity and normal. I think I must be on normal as mine seems to be colourless.
48k said:
kambites said:
Kinda weird that their "headline" says "to be metered separately" then there is no mention of separate meters in the article.
Apart from in the text from Vodafone you mean?It's still a bulls
t conspiracy theory article though, adding one to one and getting seventeen and a half. Frimley111R said:
This is nothing new and that website seems sketchy at best.
In mid 2019 all new chargers had to be 'Smart', i.e. they had to have a data connection, via wifi, GSM or ethernet. The original idea is that is times of high demand energy suppliers (not the govt) would turn your charger down and potentially pay you/provide a discount for the ability to do so. The idea is a good one.
But....
1. There were tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dumb (no data connections) chargers already installed in homes and workplaces before mid 2019.
2. Although the base software is the same, there is a multitude of different types of software across chargers and each supplier needs to be able to connect to each type. Good luck with that.
3. Let's say your charger is connected to WIFI. And it drops out, which it can do. What happens then?
4. Even from 2019 right up to today you can fit a dumb charger (although no OZEV grant if you do) and so the issue of dumb chargers is being compounded
5. Most consumers don't even use the App on their chargers and somehow an energy company would need to walk through all it's customers to connect them up to their software. Again, good luck doing that.
6. What if I was on emergency call outs or needed my car a lot because I was a taxi driver? Turning my charger down before the evening shift is the last thing such people want.
As you can see, there are a lot of challenges. FWIW I think simpler solutions are best and are working now: Energy companies offer cheap charging rates over night when everyone is in bed. Simple and easy!
Don' forget too that EVs mostly won't need charging any more than every 3-4 days either.
The taxation point is ridiculous and completely impractical from a charging viewpoint. Much easier just to charge £X00 a year in RFL do everyone with an EV.
Unless I've misread the legislation, it only applies to charge points sold after June 2022 so some your points re pre-existing installs are irrelevant.In mid 2019 all new chargers had to be 'Smart', i.e. they had to have a data connection, via wifi, GSM or ethernet. The original idea is that is times of high demand energy suppliers (not the govt) would turn your charger down and potentially pay you/provide a discount for the ability to do so. The idea is a good one.
But....
1. There were tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dumb (no data connections) chargers already installed in homes and workplaces before mid 2019.
2. Although the base software is the same, there is a multitude of different types of software across chargers and each supplier needs to be able to connect to each type. Good luck with that.
3. Let's say your charger is connected to WIFI. And it drops out, which it can do. What happens then?
4. Even from 2019 right up to today you can fit a dumb charger (although no OZEV grant if you do) and so the issue of dumb chargers is being compounded
5. Most consumers don't even use the App on their chargers and somehow an energy company would need to walk through all it's customers to connect them up to their software. Again, good luck doing that.
6. What if I was on emergency call outs or needed my car a lot because I was a taxi driver? Turning my charger down before the evening shift is the last thing such people want.
As you can see, there are a lot of challenges. FWIW I think simpler solutions are best and are working now: Energy companies offer cheap charging rates over night when everyone is in bed. Simple and easy!
Don' forget too that EVs mostly won't need charging any more than every 3-4 days either.
The taxation point is ridiculous and completely impractical from a charging viewpoint. Much easier just to charge £X00 a year in RFL do everyone with an EV.
mickyh7 said:
They put Men on the Moon 60 years ago.
You don't think they'll not know when you've plugged a car in to your domestic supply!
I'm sat at Leeds, monitoring a Actuator, on a Valve under an Oilrig, in the Sea of Mexico.
Five and a half thousand miles away.
This is old Technology.
Now tell the technicians to remove all of the installed indication / monitoring wiring and ONLY connect the 415v supply to it. They can now also only operate the valve on local pushbuttons. The only piece of data monitoring you're allowed to look at is the total electrical current being drawn on the rig. You don't think they'll not know when you've plugged a car in to your domestic supply!
I'm sat at Leeds, monitoring a Actuator, on a Valve under an Oilrig, in the Sea of Mexico.
Five and a half thousand miles away.
This is old Technology.
Can you STILL tell me what that valve is doing from five and half thousand miles away?
Comparing a system designed to provide you with specific information to one in which information can theoretically be inferred is not correct.
Yes, you could simply charge a higher rate above a certain load, but you WOULD be charging that EV rate for things other than vehicle charging at certain points. Hot tub, air conditioning, washing machine and tumble dryer, dishwasher, electric shower could all easily be operating simultaneously at 1am.
You couldn't fairly call it a EV electricity rate, it would have to be a 'high usage' rate. Without changing the equipment in my house, there is no way you could be 100% certain that my car is charging (unless you were accessing the charging point data itself, obviously). You may well be 95% confident, but that would still mean quite a lot of people being unhappy about getting charged for something they are not using.
It would however be very easy to have a separate rate for EVs. All it needs it a signal from the charger to the smart meter say whether the charger is in use, and the smart meter having the hardware / software to record and transmit that piece of information. But that's not what's currently installed in most peoples houses.
In theory you could monitor usage patterns, but as has been mentioned previously, the amount of variables there would make it very difficult in practice for ALL households.
Paul_M3 said:
Now tell the technicians to remove all of the installed indication / monitoring wiring and ONLY connect the 415v supply to it. They can now also only operate the valve on local pushbuttons. The only piece of data monitoring you're allowed to look at is the total electrical current being drawn on the rig.
Can you STILL tell me what that valve is doing from five and half thousand miles away?
Comparing a system designed to provide you with specific information to one in which information can theoretically be inferred is not correct.
Yes, you could simply charge a higher rate above a certain load, but you WOULD be charging that EV rate for things other than vehicle charging at certain points. Hot tub, air conditioning, washing machine and tumble dryer, dishwasher, electric shower could all easily be operating simultaneously at 1am.
You couldn't fairly call it a EV electricity rate, it would have to be a 'high usage' rate. Without changing the equipment in my house, there is no way you could be 100% certain that my car is charging (unless you were accessing the charging point data itself, obviously). You may well be 95% confident, but that would still mean quite a lot of people being unhappy about getting charged for something they are not using.
It would however be very easy to have a separate rate for EVs. All it needs it a signal from the charger to the smart meter say whether the charger is in use, and the smart meter having the hardware / software to record and transmit that piece of information. But that's not what's currently installed in most peoples houses.
In theory you could monitor usage patterns, but as has been mentioned previously, the amount of variables there would make it very difficult in practice for ALL households.
But your asking to remove the Technology. Can you STILL tell me what that valve is doing from five and half thousand miles away?
Comparing a system designed to provide you with specific information to one in which information can theoretically be inferred is not correct.
Yes, you could simply charge a higher rate above a certain load, but you WOULD be charging that EV rate for things other than vehicle charging at certain points. Hot tub, air conditioning, washing machine and tumble dryer, dishwasher, electric shower could all easily be operating simultaneously at 1am.
You couldn't fairly call it a EV electricity rate, it would have to be a 'high usage' rate. Without changing the equipment in my house, there is no way you could be 100% certain that my car is charging (unless you were accessing the charging point data itself, obviously). You may well be 95% confident, but that would still mean quite a lot of people being unhappy about getting charged for something they are not using.
It would however be very easy to have a separate rate for EVs. All it needs it a signal from the charger to the smart meter say whether the charger is in use, and the smart meter having the hardware / software to record and transmit that piece of information. But that's not what's currently installed in most peoples houses.
In theory you could monitor usage patterns, but as has been mentioned previously, the amount of variables there would make it very difficult in practice for ALL households.
When the Government is actively installing new Technology?
We'll all have to wait and see.
But it won't be cheap, or free car fuel for long!
The government will need to recoup the £37 billion brought in annually by fuel duty and per mile pricing will be more desirable for them as the move to the 'sharing economy' means that private ownership of vehicles will likely markedly reduce in urban areas.
kambites said:
3kw is entirely practical for the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time. The average car travels about 20 miles a day so the average car needs about 8kwh per night. Even if you only charge at 1kw that's still achievable overnight. People with "normal" levels of usage can easily use a three-pin plug for 95% of their charging and only use their dedicated charger for the 5% of their driving which needs to be faster.
They're not going to be able to recoup the revenue they lose in petrol tax by putting a higher tax on 5% of EV charging!
There are far, far easier ways to tax the use of EVs than trying to tax the "fuel".
They could simply outlaw slow charging and make sure you use a registered metered connection, 99% of the public would comply just like currently 99% of owners of diesel powered vehicles get their fuel from the forecourt and don't use red diesel at half the price.They're not going to be able to recoup the revenue they lose in petrol tax by putting a higher tax on 5% of EV charging!
There are far, far easier ways to tax the use of EVs than trying to tax the "fuel".
Edited by kambites on Friday 7th January 08:57
mickyh7 said:
Paul_M3 said:
Now tell the technicians to remove all of the installed indication / monitoring wiring and ONLY connect the 415v supply to it. They can now also only operate the valve on local pushbuttons. The only piece of data monitoring you're allowed to look at is the total electrical current being drawn on the rig.
Can you STILL tell me what that valve is doing from five and half thousand miles away?
Comparing a system designed to provide you with specific information to one in which information can theoretically be inferred is not correct.
Yes, you could simply charge a higher rate above a certain load, but you WOULD be charging that EV rate for things other than vehicle charging at certain points. Hot tub, air conditioning, washing machine and tumble dryer, dishwasher, electric shower could all easily be operating simultaneously at 1am.
You couldn't fairly call it a EV electricity rate, it would have to be a 'high usage' rate. Without changing the equipment in my house, there is no way you could be 100% certain that my car is charging (unless you were accessing the charging point data itself, obviously). You may well be 95% confident, but that would still mean quite a lot of people being unhappy about getting charged for something they are not using.
It would however be very easy to have a separate rate for EVs. All it needs it a signal from the charger to the smart meter say whether the charger is in use, and the smart meter having the hardware / software to record and transmit that piece of information. But that's not what's currently installed in most peoples houses.
In theory you could monitor usage patterns, but as has been mentioned previously, the amount of variables there would make it very difficult in practice for ALL households.
But your asking to remove the Technology. Can you STILL tell me what that valve is doing from five and half thousand miles away?
Comparing a system designed to provide you with specific information to one in which information can theoretically be inferred is not correct.
Yes, you could simply charge a higher rate above a certain load, but you WOULD be charging that EV rate for things other than vehicle charging at certain points. Hot tub, air conditioning, washing machine and tumble dryer, dishwasher, electric shower could all easily be operating simultaneously at 1am.
You couldn't fairly call it a EV electricity rate, it would have to be a 'high usage' rate. Without changing the equipment in my house, there is no way you could be 100% certain that my car is charging (unless you were accessing the charging point data itself, obviously). You may well be 95% confident, but that would still mean quite a lot of people being unhappy about getting charged for something they are not using.
It would however be very easy to have a separate rate for EVs. All it needs it a signal from the charger to the smart meter say whether the charger is in use, and the smart meter having the hardware / software to record and transmit that piece of information. But that's not what's currently installed in most peoples houses.
In theory you could monitor usage patterns, but as has been mentioned previously, the amount of variables there would make it very difficult in practice for ALL households.
When the Government is actively installing new Technology?
We'll all have to wait and see.
But it won't be cheap, or free car fuel for long!
The currently installed smart meter in my house is not.
Therefore the fact that you can monitor that valve has no real relevance to them monitoring my EV charging unless you make the two systems directly comparable. That would involve you removing the bits I said, OR them changing my installation with an upgraded meter specifically designed to monitor when the car is being charged.
The discussion related to whether they could do it using what is currently installed.
But they will definitely have to do something going forward. Whether it will be electricity charging or road toll pricing I'm not sure. But with the ability for people to charge cars using their own solar panels, I wouldn't be surprised of road toll pricing is the preferred option. (Unless the system was set up to monitor how much of your own solar power you used and just charged you the tax on it I guess)
This is essentially like some larger energy business users get charged. It's know as 'peak demand' whereby exceeding a certain limit puts the user into a much higher tariff. The idea it ensure grid demand can be predicted by dissuading ad-hoc peaks. Companies deploy automatic load shedding to keep below the limit.
Ever since domestic Smart meters have been rolled out it was expected that dynamic tariffs would emerge to achieve similar results, I e. dissuading high use in the evening. Octopus offer such tariff I believe but expect everyone with a Smart meter to have it eventually as we move to a UK wide ' Smart Grid' .
Whether the meter itself can distinguish between a car being plugged in a taking up to 7kW verses someone having a shower is an interesting point. I guess it could just trigger the higher rate tariff irrespectively of what the electrical load is.
They will have to find a way of taxing electric road miles some how as more EV cars get used, the alternative of course is a GPS based solution linked to the speed limiting device we are expecting to have mandated at some point. Happy days....
Ever since domestic Smart meters have been rolled out it was expected that dynamic tariffs would emerge to achieve similar results, I e. dissuading high use in the evening. Octopus offer such tariff I believe but expect everyone with a Smart meter to have it eventually as we move to a UK wide ' Smart Grid' .
Whether the meter itself can distinguish between a car being plugged in a taking up to 7kW verses someone having a shower is an interesting point. I guess it could just trigger the higher rate tariff irrespectively of what the electrical load is.
They will have to find a way of taxing electric road miles some how as more EV cars get used, the alternative of course is a GPS based solution linked to the speed limiting device we are expecting to have mandated at some point. Happy days....
Given that pretty much every car sold in the last few years is internet connected and has Nav, it'll be a lot eaiser for the Gov to simply manadate road charging via the car itself. You EV already knows exactly where and when you've driven it, so coming up with a monthly bil for that is really not hard....
kambites said:
But the whole point is to encourage people to charge at night when the grid load is otherwise low. The last thing they want to do is push people to charge at peak times by tax off-peak higher!
But it can still be cheaper to charge overnight, and have the charger record how much charge is delivered for tax purposes..Charge during the day, pay 20p per unit + 38% tax.
Charge during the night, pay 5p per unit + 38% tax.
The choice will be yours!
Or as you said earlier, could just evade the tax by using a granny charger. That can easily work for now.. but once smart chargers are the norm, it won't take long to mandate that the cars themselves track all current they have received and when back home or at a public charger, they transmit and charging data they have had from a non smart charger, to the smart charger.
coetzeeh said:
The technology to capture EV charging from the same smart meter installation exists.
One of our subsidiaries in UK has a shed load of diesel vans and migrating to EV. The meter will enable staff to charge the van at home but the EV bill will be sent to their employer without any intervention from driver.
This is really genuinely interesting, do you know how the user's domestic meter is identifying the vehicle charge kWh ?One of our subsidiaries in UK has a shed load of diesel vans and migrating to EV. The meter will enable staff to charge the van at home but the EV bill will be sent to their employer without any intervention from driver.
Also, would it know the difference should they happen to also own their own EV? I know some chargers communicate with the plugged in vehicle but does it identify somehow the vehicle by an ID of some sort?
Thanks!
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