Seperate Meters for EV Chargers.
Discussion
It's just requiring the same level of smart that OZEV-funded chargepoints need. With the domestic grant going, it's avoiding new installs going to dumb chargers at the lowest possible cost.
Plenty of cars don't have features like charge scheduling so it makes sense to put it on the chargepoint. Any "metering" is consumption data for the owner. The legislation includes things like random startup times so after a power cut at 3am you don't have a street full of cars all starting to charge at once. The "demand side response" bit mandated is about being capable of doing things like Octopus are doing with their Intelligent tariff - set when you need the car for and how much energy you need and let the supplier choose when it happens - in return you get much cheaper power. You can still override if you need a charge to start sooner.
As we move away from burning stuff, having high draw electrical equipment be a bit smarter about how and when it works is vital. You're simply not going to have a home with a heat pump, induction hob, electric oven, electric showers and a couple of car chargers have all of them running full whack at the same time - they'll be reducing the rate to the lower priority stuff (car charger, heat pump) if needed while you use a higher priority item like the shower.
Separate metering for special "car electricity" is nonsense. Most people could cover their needs from a 3 pin plug anyway.
edit: text is all here if you want to read the legislation rather than conspiracy wibble websites: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/1467/cont...
Plenty of cars don't have features like charge scheduling so it makes sense to put it on the chargepoint. Any "metering" is consumption data for the owner. The legislation includes things like random startup times so after a power cut at 3am you don't have a street full of cars all starting to charge at once. The "demand side response" bit mandated is about being capable of doing things like Octopus are doing with their Intelligent tariff - set when you need the car for and how much energy you need and let the supplier choose when it happens - in return you get much cheaper power. You can still override if you need a charge to start sooner.
As we move away from burning stuff, having high draw electrical equipment be a bit smarter about how and when it works is vital. You're simply not going to have a home with a heat pump, induction hob, electric oven, electric showers and a couple of car chargers have all of them running full whack at the same time - they'll be reducing the rate to the lower priority stuff (car charger, heat pump) if needed while you use a higher priority item like the shower.
Separate metering for special "car electricity" is nonsense. Most people could cover their needs from a 3 pin plug anyway.
edit: text is all here if you want to read the legislation rather than conspiracy wibble websites: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/1467/cont...
Andy86GT said:
coetzeeh said:
The technology to capture EV charging from the same smart meter installation exists.
One of our subsidiaries in UK has a shed load of diesel vans and migrating to EV. The meter will enable staff to charge the van at home but the EV bill will be sent to their employer without any intervention from driver.
This is really genuinely interesting, do you know how the user's domestic meter is identifying the vehicle charge kWh ?One of our subsidiaries in UK has a shed load of diesel vans and migrating to EV. The meter will enable staff to charge the van at home but the EV bill will be sent to their employer without any intervention from driver.
Also, would it know the difference should they happen to also own their own EV? I know some chargers communicate with the plugged in vehicle but does it identify somehow the vehicle by an ID of some sort?
Thanks!
To make this happen with the present meters, either;
1) The EVSE is sub-metered, that sub-meter feeding back the usage (unlikely)
2) The domestic meter is 'smart' and gathers data in half hour increments - a 'guess' can be made that over night usage might be suppling the E-van. However no-one has access to the metering data other than the Metering Company and the energy provider. Unless the Company was paying the bill for all usage, they are not going to get the data.
3) The charger is 'special' in that it reports usage.
4) The vehicle is 'special' in that it can report its usage.
'Smart' meters are fairly dumb.
Max_Torque said:
Your EV already knows exactly where and when you've driven it, so coming up with a monthly bill for that is really not hard...
That would certainly be a compelling option for the government - it would allow them to tax users based not only on how much they drive but also on when and where they drive. TheDeuce said:
it won't take long to mandate that the cars themselves track all current they have received and when back home or at a public charger,
If they manage to get cars reporting their usage to that degree they wont tax based on charging, or at least not only that. They'll tax based on car usage so they can charge more for peak time use, driving in cities, etc. One way or another we're going down that route - whether it's by cars monitoring and reporting their usage or just using ANPR I don't know but it's not really relevant how they do it if they do. ANPR has the added advantage that they can also tax cars which were produced prior to any such system being mandated in the car itself. Harder to tamper with too so my money is on that approach although it does have the unfortunate effect of needing the government to spend tax payers' money rather than just forcing tax payers to spend their own money which is somehow politically more palatable.
Edited by kambites on Friday 7th January 13:50
charltjr said:
Ignoring the crackpot wibble website’s frankly bulls
t spin on it, this isn’t news.
It’s just load management to protect the grid from local overload in periods of high demand and low supply and has been in the pipeline for ages.
Well according to several prolific energy experts and bevtards that populate the forum that’s a non issue anyway as the grid allegedly can cope easily. t spin on it, this isn’t news. It’s just load management to protect the grid from local overload in periods of high demand and low supply and has been in the pipeline for ages.
In their universe..
Volvolover said:
Well according to several prolific energy experts and bevtards that populate the forum that’s a non issue anyway as the grid allegedly can cope easily.
I think the whole point is that the grid can cope fine precisely because it's fairly easy to do things like load-leveling and there's plenty of time to implement it before there's enough EVs on the market to need it? I've never seen anyone claim that the grid would be fine if everyone in the country bought an EV tomorrow and then tried to charge them at the same time. I think the Nation Grid's actual comment was something along the lines of "there is no plausible take-up rate of EVs which we wont be able to adapt to meet the demands of".
Edited by kambites on Friday 7th January 13:59
kambites said:
Volvolover said:
Well according to several prolific energy experts and bevtards that populate the forum that’s a non issue anyway as the grid allegedly can cope easily.
I think the whole point is that the grid can cope fine precisely because it's fairly easy to do things like load-leveling and there's plenty of time to implement it before there's enough EVs on the market to need it? I've never seen anyone claim that the grid would be fine if everyone in the country bought an EV tomorrow and then tried to charge them at the same time. I think the Nation Grid's actual comment was something along the lines of "there is no plausible take-up rate of EVs which we wont be able to adapt to meet the demands of".
Edited by kambites on Friday 7th January 13:59
There's a lot more carrot than stick. Wholesale energy varies in cost a lot through the day and is typically much cheaper in the middle of the night, and smart meters allow tariffs with different costs at different times. Loads of car charging will shift to night-time off-peak simply because the energy companies can make it much cheaper then.
Volvolover said:
The document I saw said they need to make investments to match predicted demand but hey ho
Err yes, isn't that agreeing with what I said? The grid needs investment to cope (things like load leveling and possibly even V2G plus probably a small increase in peak capacity, depending on how quick EV take-up is) but it easily can as long as the investment is made. Edited by kambites on Friday 7th January 14:39
kambites said:
TheDeuce said:
it won't take long to mandate that the cars themselves track all current they have received and when back home or at a public charger,
If they manage to get cars reporting their usage to that degree they wont tax based on charging, or at least not only that. They'll tax based on car usage so they can charge more for peak time use, driving in cities, etc. One way or another we're going down that route - whether it's by cars monitoring and reporting their usage or just using ANPR I don't know but it's not really relevant how they do it if they do. ANPR has the added advantage that they can also tax cars which were produced prior to any such system being mandated in the car itself. Harder to tamper with too so my money is on that approach although it does have the unfortunate effect of needing the government to spend tax payers' money rather than just forcing tax payers to spend their own money which is somehow politically more palatable.
Edited by kambites on Friday 7th January 13:50
Depends if they want to go the hi-tech route and charge different amounts depending on what type of road/region the miles are done I suppose. My preference would just be a generic per mile tax - which is quite generous given I live in tiny town and if it were based on main/major roads only, I probably wouldn't pay very much!
48k said:
Paul_M3 said:
The discussion related to whether they could do it using what is currently installed.
Isn't that irrelevant? The legislation referenced in the OP is for equipment sold after June 2022.TheDeuce said:
However they end up doing it, I agree the final destination for vehicle taxation seems to be road use taxation. And to be fair, people could effectively self admit their mileage and pay as they go without any fancy tech - and then a colossal fine if when they sell or retire the car, the mileage doesn't match their claimed use. That's effectively the system that's worked perfectly well for decades of tracking lease car mileage.
Depends if they want to go the hi-tech route and charge different amounts depending on what type of road/region the miles are done I suppose. My preference would just be a generic per mile tax - which is quite generous given I live in tiny town and if it were based on main/major roads only, I probably wouldn't pay very much!
Mileage correction services would boom? Depends if they want to go the hi-tech route and charge different amounts depending on what type of road/region the miles are done I suppose. My preference would just be a generic per mile tax - which is quite generous given I live in tiny town and if it were based on main/major roads only, I probably wouldn't pay very much!
From looking at the smart meter rollout and other similar projects I can’t see “them” having the nous to build and rollout anything clever enough to track and bill home EV charging be it from a 3 pin plug, dumb or smart charger.
It’s been suggested on here but I could see households getting an “annual energy allowance” then increasing the tax on anything above this.
Let’s say for 3650 kWh PA you’d pay 5% VAT and over that 50% VAT. Everyone has a meter, so a simple change to the providers billing system and those big consumers pay more whether it’s for charging an EV, heating a pool and jacuzzi or whatever.
Else road pricing - tho’ that’s possibly more unpalatable for the electorate, and more complex to setup!
No ideas for a name said:
It can't do that.
To make this happen with the present meters, either;
1) The EVSE is sub-metered, that sub-meter feeding back the usage (unlikely)
2) The domestic meter is 'smart' and gathers data in half hour increments - a 'guess' can be made that over night usage might be suppling the E-van. However no-one has access to the metering data other than the Metering Company and the energy provider. Unless the Company was paying the bill for all usage, they are not going to get the data.
3) The charger is 'special' in that it reports usage.
4) The vehicle is 'special' in that it can report its usage.
'Smart' meters are fairly dumb.
This was what I was thinking and hence my question as to how this specific EV van charging cost was being separated out. To make this happen with the present meters, either;
1) The EVSE is sub-metered, that sub-meter feeding back the usage (unlikely)
2) The domestic meter is 'smart' and gathers data in half hour increments - a 'guess' can be made that over night usage might be suppling the E-van. However no-one has access to the metering data other than the Metering Company and the energy provider. Unless the Company was paying the bill for all usage, they are not going to get the data.
3) The charger is 'special' in that it reports usage.
4) The vehicle is 'special' in that it can report its usage.
'Smart' meters are fairly dumb.
I like the remark that Smart Meters are fairly dumb, I've had a few calls to my provider eg around why I still see still estimated readings on occasion; .. "oh, it's off line at the moment" . Genius.
Max_Torque said:
Your EV already knows exactly where and when you've driven it, so coming up with a monthly bill for that is really not hard...
most cars do, If you have registered for Mercedes Me its logging everything you do back in Germany, and they can disable the car remotely and tell the finance company where to collect it from if you miss payments 
The govt doesn't do simple but if they want to tax EVs a large annual fee is the way to go. ICE cars pay road tax and fuel duty etc. Get an average figure and just charge each car. Fair for low mileage users? Nope. But when did fairness matter?
Has the advantage that the road tax system is already up and running. Just charge EVs say £600 a year annual tax.
Obviously once EVs are a majority the current perks like free charging and parking and exzemption from congestion zones will need to go.
Has the advantage that the road tax system is already up and running. Just charge EVs say £600 a year annual tax.
Obviously once EVs are a majority the current perks like free charging and parking and exzemption from congestion zones will need to go.
Frimley111R said:
The taxation point is ridiculous and completely impractical from a charging viewpoint. Much easier just to charge £X00 a year in RFL do everyone with an EV.
RFL or more likely some sort of subscription service from your energy provider. As mentioned elsewhere, spotting the usage pattern of a charger is pretty easy, so its an excuse for a provider to highlight how expensive it could be, so get a subscription service where you get a certain number of 'charge sessions' per month at a lower rate. Of course, most people wont use it and will likely end up paying more for it. Its how it all works...Here in California pretty much every single dwelling has a smart meter on it for gas, electricity and water. And with the usage patterns being easy to determine (air con in summer at certain times of the day), PG&E have been pushing for integration with your smart thermostat. Basically, you authorize PG&E to interact with the API's of our thermostat vendor for your account to dynamically turn up or down your heating / cooling in peak energy usage scenarios. Oh, and they will give you $75 for the privilege.
I see that is something that fits here - Wifi connected charger, authorize the system with your energy provider and they can manage and reduce loads as needed - and hopefully give you a discount too!
its good news the grant for fitting is going, the only people who benefit are the companies fitting.
I've been charging a model 3 on a 3 pin for a month, no issues at all. to the point, it makes me wonder why I'm paying to have a charger fitted.
you'd save more money most likely, using a 3 pin and paying for a fast charge if you've a last minute long trip.
I've been charging a model 3 on a 3 pin for a month, no issues at all. to the point, it makes me wonder why I'm paying to have a charger fitted.
you'd save more money most likely, using a 3 pin and paying for a fast charge if you've a last minute long trip.
jason61c said:
I've been charging a model 3 on a 3 pin for a month, no issues at all. to the point, it makes me wonder why I'm paying to have a charger fitted.
you'd save more money most likely, using a 3 pin and paying for a fast charge if you've a last minute long trip.
Ran an i3 on a two pin adaptor here and it was painful! But we did it! Had an L2 installed and it has made a massive difference. If you can get away without getting one installed, great. But it does make a difference for those situations where you forget to plug it in or run it low and then have to run an errand etc. Just takes the pressure off and limits your need to grab a fast charge somewhere.you'd save more money most likely, using a 3 pin and paying for a fast charge if you've a last minute long trip.
Oh, and ultimately its cheaper than public charging too - though absolutely depends on what supercharger package you have.
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