11kW AC Charging

[blank]

As people probably know, UK typical UK AC Charging types for EVSEs are:
3.6kW - Single phase 16A
7.2kW - Single phase 32A
11kW - 3 phase 16A
22kW - 3 phase 32A

I was wondering what happened in some situations...

E.g. if your car has an 11kW on board charger, does it still charge at 7.2kW on a single phase charger, even though that would need 32A? I'm assuming most would as it would just mean the internal wiring on the car would need to handle 32A on at least that phase.

Or if you connect a car with a 7.2kW on board charger to an 11kW post then it will just draw from one phase, but will it be limited to 3.6kW as the EVSE is only 16A per phase?

Anyone tried these 2 scenarios?

[No ideas for a name]

The pilot signal from the EVSE should tell the vehicle what CURRENT is available.
Therefore, it should be the latter.
Less phases, same current means less kW.

NOTE: This is a theoretical answer based on the specs, not a practical test.

Edited by No ideas for a name on Friday 7th January 22:12

[jason61c]

your car has the charger, the 'charger' is just the supply. your car will work to its limits/charging profile and incoming supply. a single phase will not supply 22kw.

[Toaster Pilot]

Some do, some don’t. Some will only charge at 3.6kW (16A single phase), some are clever enough to combine two phases to pull 32A.

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Toaster Pilot said:

Some do, some don’t. Some will only charge at 3.6kW (16A single phase), some are clever enough to combine two phases to pull 32A.

Interesting. Any idea which cars are limited like this?

That would be quite annoying to have an 11kW OBC but only be able to charge at 3.6 from a 7kW box at home.

[Toaster Pilot]

blank said:

Interesting. Any idea which cars are limited like this?

That would be quite annoying to have an 11kW OBC but only be able to charge at 3.6 from a 7kW box at home.

I think it’s mostly old and weird stuff. Mercedes B class springs to mind.

Any modern ones I can think of will combine phases.

[ruggedscotty]

it depends on the batte.ery state too. tend to get max charge going when battery is at its lowest charge.

I looked at a customers installation last week. 350kw charger on 3 ph with a 400kw gen set to power it.

sayd he worked out the costs and for doing 200k miles it will pay for itself.

[Toaster Pilot]

ruggedscotty said:

it depends on the batte.ery state too. tend to get max charge going when battery is at its lowest charge.

I looked at a customers installation last week. 350kw charger on 3 ph with a 400kw gen set to power it.

sayd he worked out the costs and for doing 200k miles it will pay for itself.

DC charging is a completely different ball game. What car was he charging to warrant spending a hundred grand on a charger? Very few can charge that quickly.

[JonnyVTEC]

My I-Pace does 11kW 3 phase and 7kW single so yes it can be done, I see the logic of what you have asked though, to get 32A per phase on three phase for 22kW requires a fair amount more cost and package space.

So can see why a halfway house is offered, 3 phase 11kW EVSE in Europe for example might be in a situation where just a single phase charger on the car could only charge at 3.7kW so just 11kW a big jump!

[JonnyVTEC]

ruggedscotty said:

it depends on the batte.ery state too. tend to get max charge going when battery is at its lowest charge.

I looked at a customers installation last week. 350kw charger on 3 ph with a 400kw gen set to power it.

sayd he worked out the costs and for doing 200k miles it will pay for itself.

Is he a trucker?!

[Knock_knock]

blank said:

As people probably know, UK typical UK AC Charging types for EVSEs are:
3.6kW - Single phase 16A
7.2kW - Single phase 32A
11kW - 3 phase 16A
22kW - 3 phase 32A

I was wondering what happened in some situations...

E.g. if your car has an 11kW on board charger, does it still charge at 7.2kW on a single phase charger, even though that would need 32A? I'm assuming most would as it would just mean the internal wiring on the car would need to handle 32A on at least that phase.

Or if you connect a car with a 7.2kW on board charger to an 11kW post then it will just draw from one phase, but will it be limited to 3.6kW as the EVSE is only 16A per phase?

Anyone tried these 2 scenarios?

Kia eNiro (11kw A/C charging capability) charged using supplied (3 phase) cable:

22kw Pod Point charger - charges at 11kw
11kw Mer charger - charges at 11kw
7kw Pod Point charger - charges at 7kw (or 6.5kw at Tesco for "reasons")
7kw home charger - charges at 7.2kw

Renault Zoe (22kw A/C charging capability) charged using supplied (3 phase) cable:
22kw Pod Point charger - charges at 22kw
11kw Mer charger - charges at 11kw
7kw Pod Point charger - charges at 7kw (or 6.5kw at Tesco for "reasons")
7kw home charger - charges at 7.2kw

[orvil]

Toaster Pilot said:

I think it’s mostly old and weird stuff. Mercedes B class springs to mind.

Any modern ones I can think of will combine phases.

Yes. I have a 2015 B class.
On my 7kW home charger it draws 3.3.
On a 22kW public charger it draws 11.
It doesn't have a DC charger.

Had it for over 3 years now. Still going strong, no issues at all and no plan to replace it. We live 10 miles from town so can do 3-4 return trips then charge overnight.

[delta0]

JonnyVTEC said:

Is he a trucker?!

I would have guessed a taxi driver.

[GT6k]

The charge rate variation is partially down to compatibility with different national standards, legacy 'fast' charging and willy waving. Most UK houses have at least 32A available so a single phase 7KW on board charger and wallbox are the way to go. In europe many houses have 2 or 3 phase but limited to lower current so can only achieve 7KW charging by using multiple phases (they don't use 415v across the phases just multiple 220/240v). This means most cars are fitted with multiple 16A or 32 A chargers and the cable/wall box/car negotiate the fastest combination and connect the multiple chargers to a single phase if they can. Some manufacturers have got it wrong, notably Skoda. They been unable to enable multiple OBC when on UK single phase so their Citigoe's are limited to using one of the two 3.5kW OBC even though the identical Mii and Up have the right software and are able to use both. Faster charging rates used to be fashionable before they were overtaken by DC charging so the 22kW rates that some earlier cars do is often due to the lack of a DC option when they were made.

Beyond 7KW its mostly willy waving as this will give you about 125 miles in a 4 hour cheap rate charge period and the additional costs of faster charging installations don't make sense unless you are running a taxi fleet. If you want faster charging you get yourself to a DC rapid.

[ZesPak]

orvil said:

Yes. I have a 2015 B class.
On my 7kW home charger it draws 3.3.
On a 22kW public charger it draws 11.
It doesn't have a DC charger.

Had it for over 3 years now. Still going strong, no issues at all and no plan to replace it. We live 10 miles from town so can do 3-4 return trips then charge overnight.

Sounds like it can combine phases but only at 16A, which is the same as the first MY I Pace iirc?

Are there any cars that can pull the full 22kW AC though?
iirc my Model S can only pull 16kW from a 22kW point.

[ruggedscotty]

delta0 said:

JonnyVTEC said:

Is he a trucker?!

I would have guessed a taxi driver.

yup a taxi firm, looking at quick charge turn arounds as the taxi is not earning when sat, and he is looking to stay away from the charging network as reckons thats going to get expensive very quickly. the taxi fleet maintenance and fueling costs over five years is well over what this charging system is costing, and of course he can do more than one vehicle at a time. not went into the ins and outs of it as was down doing the generator and looking at the earthing arrangements as the generator output is kept seperate from the mains.so its being treated as a private supply, however as they have used the utility supply for the control side of things then there is a mix and that needed looking at.

It does look to be a good set up.

[JonnyVTEC]

ZesPak said:

Sounds like it can combine phases but only at 16A, which is the same as the first MY I Pace iirc?

Are there any cars that can pull the full 22kW AC though?
iirc my Model S can only pull 16kW from a 22kW point.

It’s an option on e-tron SUV and Taycan / e-tron GT

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ruggedscotty said:

delta0 said:

JonnyVTEC said:

Is he a trucker?!

I would have guessed a taxi driver.

yup a taxi firm, looking at quick charge turn arounds as the taxi is not earning when sat, and he is looking to stay away from the charging network as reckons thats going to get expensive very quickly. the taxi fleet maintenance and fueling costs over five years is well over what this charging system is costing, and of course he can do more than one vehicle at a time. not went into the ins and outs of it as was down doing the generator and looking at the earthing arrangements as the generator output is kept seperate from the mains.so its being treated as a private supply, however as they have used the utility supply for the control side of things then there is a mix and that needed looking at.

It does look to be a good set up.

Is he allowed to use red diesel after April?

[essayer]

ZesPak said:

Sounds like it can combine phases but only at 16A, which is the same as the first MY I Pace iirc?

Are there any cars that can pull the full 22kW AC though?
iirc my Model S can only pull 16kW from a 22kW point.

ZOEs can

If you have a 11kW three phase EVSE (charger) remember that most EVs are not 11kW capable and will only charge at 3.6kW on those chargers

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So it seems that getting an 11kW (3x 16A) OBC to take 7.2 kW (32A) on a single phase is pretty commonplace by connecting 2 of the OBCs to the L1 feed.

What about the other way as mentioned above, with 7.2kW vehicles on 11kW EVSEs. Does anything have a "2 phase" charger? I vaguely remember the eGolf has L1 and L2 pins (but no L3) on its charging port...