Battery Recycling?
Discussion
Everyone is wrong 
Presently battery reliability is very good with only a few packs being exchanged by OEM's. Forget gen 1 cars like Leaf's etc that do not have proper cooling, these cars are effectively Beta cars by comparison to new cars.
When there is enough demand for recycled battery packs then these businesses will pop up like Maccy D's in your vicinity. I looked at a battery repair centre as a viable business opportunity but back then (2016) there was insufficient demand. Same is true now as most premium EV OEM's offer 8 years on the drivetrain and most battery repairs are undertaken by the OEM's.
In the next 3-4 years I predict Mr Clutch will be replaced by Mr Battery and some big automotive repair companies will also include factory battery pack replacements. Quikfit would be ideal for such as they already have workshops and technicians (if you can call them that!).
If there is demand there will be business. This is the reason we've not seen battery refurbishment centres.. because they are not yet needed.
If a Tesla battery pack costs £20k (estimated) you can bet these service centres will be banging them out for nearly half of that. It's going to happen it just hasn't happened yet.
Presently battery reliability is very good with only a few packs being exchanged by OEM's. Forget gen 1 cars like Leaf's etc that do not have proper cooling, these cars are effectively Beta cars by comparison to new cars.
When there is enough demand for recycled battery packs then these businesses will pop up like Maccy D's in your vicinity. I looked at a battery repair centre as a viable business opportunity but back then (2016) there was insufficient demand. Same is true now as most premium EV OEM's offer 8 years on the drivetrain and most battery repairs are undertaken by the OEM's.
In the next 3-4 years I predict Mr Clutch will be replaced by Mr Battery and some big automotive repair companies will also include factory battery pack replacements. Quikfit would be ideal for such as they already have workshops and technicians (if you can call them that!).
If there is demand there will be business. This is the reason we've not seen battery refurbishment centres.. because they are not yet needed.
If a Tesla battery pack costs £20k (estimated) you can bet these service centres will be banging them out for nearly half of that. It's going to happen it just hasn't happened yet.
J4CKO said:
Whenever I let people know that I am quite keen on the whole EV thing, despite not having the desire to buy one as yet, they start rattling on about how bad they are for the environment.
These new environmentalist have been strangely silent regarding oils spills, explosions, environmental damage from oil extraction and the wars its caused, never mind the current ropey air in town and city centres, however we will ignore that.
But, they are going on about the impending battery mountains from defunct EV's piling up and leeching all manner of nasties, because they cant be reused, cant be recycled and we will be surrounded by dead EVs and their batteries pretty soon.
Is there already a problem ? my thinking is most EVs are fairly new and are on their original batteries, there will be crashed ones and the odd worn out pack but it will be a few hundred, maybe a couple of thousand thus far nationally ?
Will it be a massive problem, whats being done if anything ?
It's one of those things used by frothers, Alpha Men and the usual array of loons that does actually have its roots in logical reality. These new environmentalist have been strangely silent regarding oils spills, explosions, environmental damage from oil extraction and the wars its caused, never mind the current ropey air in town and city centres, however we will ignore that.
But, they are going on about the impending battery mountains from defunct EV's piling up and leeching all manner of nasties, because they cant be reused, cant be recycled and we will be surrounded by dead EVs and their batteries pretty soon.
Is there already a problem ? my thinking is most EVs are fairly new and are on their original batteries, there will be crashed ones and the odd worn out pack but it will be a few hundred, maybe a couple of thousand thus far nationally ?
Will it be a massive problem, whats being done if anything ?
We can't recycle batteries. We currently burn them. But the key lies to then understanding why rather than leaping like an Incel, Freeman or MGTOW Facebook, window licking scumbag to the conclusion that all is over so as to justify one's desires.
Max and rxe have covered the reality off pretty comprehensively.
Can we technically recycle? Yes. Why don't we? Well there is a valid argument that we need a critical mass of defunct batteries before it becomes cheap enough but much more crucially is the current legal situation where the entity responsible for the cost hasn't been chosen.
It will always be cheaper to build from scratch materials than recycled for Li chemical batteries. The cost of extracting the essential elements is going to always be far higher than digging them out of the ground.
It doesn't matter how many old batteries there are, there will be no recycling of them beyond PR t
ttery until it has been decided who is to pay for the work. The fudge that automotive have leapt at is local storage. This is about getting the battery off their balance sheet and onto someone else's. It's a toxic game of pass the parcel. Left unresolved the storage industry will sell them on to offshore recycling agents who promise to take them to a third world country for children to deal with bit will be dumping them in the sea and returning for the next batch and payment.
And of course, recycling itself is hideously toxic and potentially polluting so do you want to be doing that in a developing nation or somewhere it can be regulated and the damage limited? Or in fact, would it all be more environmental and cost effective to deep six them all?
This window of time where Li chemistry is used to power EVs is toxic, inefficient and riddled with issues that are reliant on man maths, PR, propaganda, legislation and payments to exist but it's important to understand that it is a stepping stone, a means to an end.
My view is that Li batteries need to remain the legal responsibility of the manufacturer/vendor of their first use and that these firms must start paying now, into a central fund to cover defaults and to govern and enforce the end of life rules for any battery containing more than x number of cells.
The looming disaster is that no entity has yet been told they will be responsible for the toxic clean up and no money is being set aside.
Plus, as rxe points out, half dead batteries going into homes or being stacked in vast numbers presents their own environmental ticking bomb and is reliant on random levels of cell grading, if any at all and then a BMS that's hopefully good enough for things to not go horribly sideways.
The reality is the insurance industry is who will
Decide whether used cars batteries get stored anywhere near the properties they are insuring. And the industry is waking up to this risk along with the underground car park risk of a large number of Li cells in proximity.
I would like regulators to take the industry by the horns and insist that most battery packs are rented to the vehicle owner and that those packs are standardised and easily swappable. If swapping can be done quickly enough then it could go a long way towards solving the street parking/charging issue; this has been tried before (by Tesla amongst others), but I suspect the market was not then big enough for the scheme to be viable and there was no pressure from regulators or the green lobby. When packs are swapped out they will be checked to see how reusable they are; worn out ones will be removed from circulation to be reused/refurbed/reclaimed as appropriate. Car manufacturers can choose to install other battery packs as well as, or instead of, the standardised ones to suit their particular markets, but that is discouraged by some form of tariff or tax.
Lily the Pink said:
I would like regulators to take the industry by the horns and insist that most battery packs are rented to the vehicle owner and that those packs are standardised and easily swappable. If swapping can be done quickly enough then it could go a long way towards solving the street parking/charging issue; this has been tried before (by Tesla amongst others), but I suspect the market was not then big enough for the scheme to be viable and there was no pressure from regulators or the green lobby. When packs are swapped out they will be checked to see how reusable they are; worn out ones will be removed from circulation to be reused/refurbed/reclaimed as appropriate. Car manufacturers can choose to install other battery packs as well as, or instead of, the standardised ones to suit their particular markets, but that is discouraged by some form of tariff or tax.
No chance. The car industry is global and they won't pay attention to a UK regulator.Car manufacturers are looking for ways to out compete each other. They won't want some else's battery in their car and can you imagine warranty type claims relating to the electrical systems once a battery is swapped?
Some companies have tried swapping batteries in cars that have 'quick change' mechanisms but it requires a lot of investment and is largely unnecessary.
The downside of standardisation is that it inhibits innovation and the one area of mobility innovation that must not be inhibited is battery tech. It's vital that we stay no longer than is required at this particular stage of the evolutionary process.
However, what is needed is the overt recognition that someone is going to have to pay for the recycling of these battery packs and to lay down the protocol for that today.
However, what is needed is the overt recognition that someone is going to have to pay for the recycling of these battery packs and to lay down the protocol for that today.
off_again said:
I could be wrong, but didnt I just read an article that the battery recycling process is a combination of Panasonic and Redwood - and they then supply the batteries for Tesla? I think they just started the closed loop process this year. Impressive stuff, but not Tesla from what I read.
Yes I don’t expect Tesla to directly recycle their batteries. What I mean is Tesla make sure that service is available to their vehicles. This is not the case for all other manufacturers where many have no such systems in place. I was told that Mercedes are working on serviceable battery packs which sounds like the logical step forward to my mind. At the moment they have to drop the whole unit out and store it in a steel box a minimum distance from the building for insurance purposes, where it’s then collected by a specialist transport company and returned to a central location.
Regarding home storage, I would happily have a pack linked to PV as it seems to be a good solution; however, it won’t be going inside my house.
Regarding home storage, I would happily have a pack linked to PV as it seems to be a good solution; however, it won’t be going inside my house.
DonkeyApple said:
My view is that Li batteries need to remain the legal responsibility of the manufacturer/vendor of their first use and that these firms must start paying now, into a central fund to cover defaults and to govern and enforce the end of life rules for any battery containing more than x number of cells.
OEMs already have a legal obligation to take back waste/end-of-life Li-ion "industrial batteries" as well as conventional 12V "automotive batteries", and it's a big liability on the balance sheet.Frimley111R said:
No chance. The car industry is global and they won't pay attention to a UK regulator.
Car manufacturers are looking for ways to out compete each other. They won't want some else's battery in their car and can you imagine warranty type claims relating to the electrical systems once a battery is swapped?
Some companies have tried swapping batteries in cars that have 'quick change' mechanisms but it requires a lot of investment and is largely unnecessary.
Not a UK regulator. UNECE lays down international standards.Car manufacturers are looking for ways to out compete each other. They won't want some else's battery in their car and can you imagine warranty type claims relating to the electrical systems once a battery is swapped?
Some companies have tried swapping batteries in cars that have 'quick change' mechanisms but it requires a lot of investment and is largely unnecessary.
Certain components have been swapped without infringing warranties - tyres, 12v batteries, exhausts, ...
There is the potential additional benefit of easing the street-side public charging and range anxiety issues.
It would be technically difficult and require imagination and determination, which is probably why it will never happen; not because it is infeasible.
Evanivitch said:
Powervault put 10 year warranty on a new pack and 3 year warranty on a Powervault Eco second-life battery.
And that's based on a first gen Zoe battery.
https://www.powervault.co.uk/choose-your-powervaul...
You can’t see the prices. The discount would be the interesting factor. You’re buying an expensive appliance that has a material install cost. How much are you willing to pay extra for the “new” cells? How much of a disadvantage is getting a bigger box with a lower capacity? You know damn fine that when it does fail in year 4, the vendor will suck their teeth and say “we haven’t got any more Zoe packs, but we do have the whizz-bang XL5 to sell you”. And that's based on a first gen Zoe battery.
https://www.powervault.co.uk/choose-your-powervaul...
Unlike the carefully calibrated formula E batteries that have been discussed, you have no clue whether you are buying batteries that have been fast charged at every opportunity and ragged stupid with traffic light launches. There are indeed all sorts of ideas and schemes out there - most of them have “pilot/proof of concept/demonstrator” as an addendum.
DonkeyApple said:
It's one of those things used by frothers, Alpha Men and the usual array of loons that does actually have its roots in logical reality.
We can't recycle batteries. We currently burn them. But the key lies to then understanding why rather than leaping like an Incel, Freeman or MGTOW Facebook, window licking scumbag to the conclusion that all is over so as to justify one's desires.
Max and rxe have covered the reality off pretty comprehensively.
Can we technically recycle? Yes. Why don't we? Well there is a valid argument that we need a critical mass of defunct batteries before it becomes cheap enough but much more crucially is the current legal situation where the entity responsible for the cost hasn't been chosen.
It will always be cheaper to build from scratch materials than recycled for Li chemical batteries. The cost of extracting the essential elements is going to always be far higher than digging them out of the ground.
It doesn't matter how many old batteries there are, there will be no recycling of them beyond PR tttery until it has been decided who is to pay for the work.
The fudge that automotive have leapt at is local storage. This is about getting the battery off their balance sheet and onto someone else's. It's a toxic game of pass the parcel. Left unresolved the storage industry will sell them on to offshore recycling agents who promise to take them to a third world country for children to deal with bit will be dumping them in the sea and returning for the next batch and payment.
And of course, recycling itself is hideously toxic and potentially polluting so do you want to be doing that in a developing nation or somewhere it can be regulated and the damage limited? Or in fact, would it all be more environmental and cost effective to deep six them all?
This window of time where Li chemistry is used to power EVs is toxic, inefficient and riddled with issues that are reliant on man maths, PR, propaganda, legislation and payments to exist but it's important to understand that it is a stepping stone, a means to an end.
My view is that Li batteries need to remain the legal responsibility of the manufacturer/vendor of their first use and that these firms must start paying now, into a central fund to cover defaults and to govern and enforce the end of life rules for any battery containing more than x number of cells.
The looming disaster is that no entity has yet been told they will be responsible for the toxic clean up and no money is being set aside.
Plus, as rxe points out, half dead batteries going into homes or being stacked in vast numbers presents their own environmental ticking bomb and is reliant on random levels of cell grading, if any at all and then a BMS that's hopefully good enough for things to not go horribly sideways.
The reality is the insurance industry is who will
Decide whether used cars batteries get stored anywhere near the properties they are insuring. And the industry is waking up to this risk along with the underground car park risk of a large number of Li cells in proximity.
This is the most interesting point which concerns me. Just like domestic recycle. We collect recycle, technically we have the know-how to process this domestically but there is not the political will to deal with this. So we ship it abroad and most/some of it goes into landfill in the foreign country.We can't recycle batteries. We currently burn them. But the key lies to then understanding why rather than leaping like an Incel, Freeman or MGTOW Facebook, window licking scumbag to the conclusion that all is over so as to justify one's desires.
Max and rxe have covered the reality off pretty comprehensively.
Can we technically recycle? Yes. Why don't we? Well there is a valid argument that we need a critical mass of defunct batteries before it becomes cheap enough but much more crucially is the current legal situation where the entity responsible for the cost hasn't been chosen.
It will always be cheaper to build from scratch materials than recycled for Li chemical batteries. The cost of extracting the essential elements is going to always be far higher than digging them out of the ground.
It doesn't matter how many old batteries there are, there will be no recycling of them beyond PR t
ttery until it has been decided who is to pay for the work. The fudge that automotive have leapt at is local storage. This is about getting the battery off their balance sheet and onto someone else's. It's a toxic game of pass the parcel. Left unresolved the storage industry will sell them on to offshore recycling agents who promise to take them to a third world country for children to deal with bit will be dumping them in the sea and returning for the next batch and payment.
And of course, recycling itself is hideously toxic and potentially polluting so do you want to be doing that in a developing nation or somewhere it can be regulated and the damage limited? Or in fact, would it all be more environmental and cost effective to deep six them all?
This window of time where Li chemistry is used to power EVs is toxic, inefficient and riddled with issues that are reliant on man maths, PR, propaganda, legislation and payments to exist but it's important to understand that it is a stepping stone, a means to an end.
My view is that Li batteries need to remain the legal responsibility of the manufacturer/vendor of their first use and that these firms must start paying now, into a central fund to cover defaults and to govern and enforce the end of life rules for any battery containing more than x number of cells.
The looming disaster is that no entity has yet been told they will be responsible for the toxic clean up and no money is being set aside.
Plus, as rxe points out, half dead batteries going into homes or being stacked in vast numbers presents their own environmental ticking bomb and is reliant on random levels of cell grading, if any at all and then a BMS that's hopefully good enough for things to not go horribly sideways.
The reality is the insurance industry is who will
Decide whether used cars batteries get stored anywhere near the properties they are insuring. And the industry is waking up to this risk along with the underground car park risk of a large number of Li cells in proximity.
It would be nice if their was an international political-will to collect funds like environmental tax which is charged on metal extraction and passed all the way to the end consumer. The funding is then used to subsidised battery recycling for repurposing.
Of course, right now there is no will do to that because the impetus is to drive the consumer out of ICE and into BEV. Perhaps this can be on the agenda when the BEV market is more grown up.
Metal extraction is currently at a stage like the early stage of oil boom where you just drill like crazy everywhere. There is little thought into the longer term environmental impact at the current time.
Some really interesting food for thought.
The "Frothers" bit does annoy me, those who have ignored the failings and negative downsides of Fossil Fuels are most vocal about the negatives of EV's despite never being the slightest bit eco minded. The points raised give some ammunition for replying of course.
A lot seems like doesnt go "Brum", are expensive and I cant see a time when I will ever afford one, plus have never driven one or been in one, clue is comparing them to "Milk Floats".
they do have some limitations of course but things will improve and we may as well make the best of it, I am not choosing the ICE hill to die on even though I am quite happy with one for the time being.
The "Frothers" bit does annoy me, those who have ignored the failings and negative downsides of Fossil Fuels are most vocal about the negatives of EV's despite never being the slightest bit eco minded. The points raised give some ammunition for replying of course.
A lot seems like doesnt go "Brum", are expensive and I cant see a time when I will ever afford one, plus have never driven one or been in one, clue is comparing them to "Milk Floats".
they do have some limitations of course but things will improve and we may as well make the best of it, I am not choosing the ICE hill to die on even though I am quite happy with one for the time being.
There is a very simple answer to the naysayers on battery life and recycling - look at the price of second hand packs on ebay. An early BMW I3 22 kWh pack (which is at least 5 years old) seems to go for about £4000 whilst a later 42 kWh pack is somewhere north of £6000. You could get a very good V8 engine for this sort of money which sort of suggest that EV parts are just are recyclable/reusable as engines.
leef44 said:
. We collect recycle, technically we have the know-how to process this domestically but there is not the political will to deal with this. So we ship it abroad and most/some of it goes into landfill in the foreign country.
Recycling is still a very manual task, especially when it's local authority mixed waste recycling (different councils have different policies). Then you have the issue that much of this material is low grade or contaminated, meaning that further pushes down the market price. And finally the market price itself can be quite volatile (remember the cardboard shortage!), so margins can be very fine.All that means we export it to low-labour cost markets because it's otherwise uneconomical to process it in the UK.
Wales has very clear targets for recycling collection, processing and re-use. The front end is going well but still more work in the supply chain.
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