Goodbye i3 production, it's been emotional.

[JackReacher]

Another i3 fan here, we have had our i3s 120ah BEV for just over 2 years now. A really great car and one of my favourites that we've had. Definitely some elements of my old Lotus Exige to it in terms of feeling "light" and go-kart like, with good steering.

It's a company car and due to go back in December. In many ways I would like to keep it and buy it off the company, but I'm not sure I can justify running it when we no longer need 2 practical cars (we got it pre-covid for commuting), and sadly the i3 cannot do the longer journeys so may need to go. Aside from a Taycan sport turismo, no other EV really interests me.

[AdeTuono]

DonkeyApple said:

AdeTuono said:

DonkeyApple said:

I'd just use a car that can do the round trip without having to stop. I've genuinely no desire to join the madness of remote charging or hanging out at motorway services. The idea of paying a premium for a car that then forces you to use godawful places at terrible times of the day simply isn't logical. Nor to set the alarm for 4.10am instead of 4.30am to sit for 20 mins half way in to the journey when one of the other cars is capable of simply not having to do silly things like that.

Seeing as how this is PH, surely everyone has access to more than one car? The i3 is perfect for 95% of our car use. For the other 5% I just use something else.

My fuel bill has gone from >£400/month to around £25. I plug in at home, and visit the filling station for fossil-fuel once every 2-3 months.

I appreciate that EV isn't for everyone, but to dismiss it out-of-hand is the mark of a Luddite. And in the future, you'll have little choice anyway.

This particular sub forum has a real reading problem.

The moment someone dares say something that is extolling how awesome an EV is for everything there is a group of people who take that as anti EV rhetoric. That's the Luddite. The chap who refuses to read stuff or rather, misread to fit their agenda.

So, who has dismissed EVs out of hand? No one.

Who has agreed with me 100% in reality? You have.

Apologies. But given that at least four other PH'ers have also misunderstood your posts, maybe you should consider that you don't make yourself very clear?

[DonkeyApple]

AdeTuono said:

Apologies. But given that at least four other PH'ers have also misunderstood your posts, maybe you should consider that you don't make yourself very clear?

Nope. I've made myself perfectly clear. This is just a sub forum with a higher than usual number of bandwagon jumpers who don't read either the actual words or the nuance because they just want to hear something else. They same type exists in that NPE junk ward of incels, Nazis and care home residents.

Dare to raise the slightest issue and some assume you are against them and are triggered. I'm not really interested in the simplistic mindset of them and us.

I was simply disagreeing with someone who is very vocal about EVs being awesome because you never have to stop for 5 minutes at a petrol station yet advocates the wonder of stopping for half an hour at a charging station. Ie, I was pointing out a bit of silly thinking.

I also have a suspicion that the whole 'Rex is a terrible drive' mantra on PH is just another of those 'driving glove' specialist views but I've only driven a Rex once and as I didn't notice the disasterous handling compares to the BEV I am stating out of that argument.

Nor do I think the buffeting on motorways is a particular issue as I'm used to taller cars on narrower tyres so it doesn't scare me but ultimately it's exactly what makes it one of the best country lane hooners of modern times.

Nor do I lament the absence of gadgetry as much of that stuff is invasive tripe I wish to have nothing to do with. I don't want my car talking to my house. I find all that TVR screen stuff juvenile and low brow.

And I don't care about running costs as I've never once bought a car that I then had to be concerned about it's mpg. To me that would be utterly insane. I appreciate that many have no choice because the car is simply a tool to reach work and so it would be daft not to minimise that spend but I've never had to use a car for work so buy what I want to buy. I penny pinch on many things but it would suck all pleasure from driving to start contemplating MPG.

Earlier post:

DonkeyApple said:

SWoll said:

They're nippier than the numbers would suggest as do run out of puff fairly quickly above 50 but are exceptionally easy to drive so great for a youngster. I'm of exactly he same mind, buy one lightly used and should get a pain free decade out of it with care taken over charging.

I'm just undecided as to whether to go Rex or full EV. In theory, it wouldn't be the car chosen for any journey that would require stopping for a charge or changing one's driving style but I enjoyed driving it enough to consider the Rex version so it could be used for the fortnightly London commute without any hassles.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

DonkeyApple said:

I was simply disagreeing with someone who is very vocal about EVs being awesome because you never have to stop for 5 minutes at a petrol station yet advocates the wonder of stopping for half an hour at a charging station. Ie, I was pointing out a bit of silly thinking.

My thoughts on this are for us, the type of journeys that necessitate a motorway top up are so rare that the petrol station time saver is very much a positive.

We're lucky in that we have a local petrol station on our commute so no deviations for travel but it does take out at least 5 mins out of your day each fill up. Consider that twice a month, call it 15 mins and that's enough time saved for one thirty min booster charge each month-something we've only needed twice in 8 months of ownership.

With my pick up truck, it would be more-I really can't wait until I swap out of that for an EV version.

[DonkeyApple]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

My thoughts on this are for us, the type of journeys that necessitate a motorway top up are so rare that the petrol station time saver is very much a positive.

We're lucky in that we have a local petrol station on our commute so no deviations for travel but it does take out at least 5 mins out of your day each fill up. Consider that twice a month, call it 15 mins and that's enough time saved for one thirty min booster charge each month-something we've only needed twice in 8 months of ownership.

With my pick up truck, it would be more-I really can't wait until I swap out of that for an EV version.

Yup. I've always had a shed that is used as the family hack. I make my own sheds by buying nearly new and then looking after for years. Having moved from central London to England I have adopted a two shed policy.

The original shed is a 2009 120D with 30k on the clock. Mint interior, wrecked exterior. Bought new for peanuts as it was one of the cars dumped at the docks during the financial crisis and a family friend bought something like a thousand of them and jobbed them out.

I reckon that car will actually do the rest of the decade quite happily however, it's a nice drive compared to other makes of its size. I do like RWD and it's also comfortable for someone tall which many cars of that segment aren't.

The recent shed addition was a 2019 340 estate. The idea behind that was a useful but not too big estate car that would last 10-15 years and be great fun to hoon over that period. That purchase was a mistake. It was a crap hoon. You couldn't hear or feel the straight six, it might as well have been a diesel and the 8 speeds were far too many for an I6 engine. It really was an exercise in sensory deprivation. So when used prices spiked I called up some local dealers and one of them bit my arm off and took it away for more than I paid. Saving me from years of annoyance.

The i3 would be an absolutely perfect replacement for the 120 but firstly that car has loads of life left and is a completely known quantity. But secondly, my wife is Italian and so every single panel has been culturally shaped and an i3 is a wholly inappropriate product for an Italian driver.

So I'm looking at the i3 as my shed replacement. It will do all the local work brilliantly and unlike most modern cars of its segment, be a hoot to drive and not want to have a special relationship with either myself or my house. It's just a dumb thing that'll sit in the garage not getting lonely and when in use isn't trying to guess what I'm doing like Bill Gates' paperclip. I'm really taken by the car.

The issue is that there are certain longer journeys that I do semi regularly where I categorically know I'm not going to be wasting any time hanging out at service stations and nor do I really want to be concerning myself about where I park the car at the other end as I often decide on that once I see the traffic etc. So while I prefer the idea of the BEV the Rex would considerably widen the usability of the car, dumping more miles on it as the shed while keeping miles off the other cars which are all on mileage policies.

The 120ah BEV would definitely need a charge on the simple run in to London. I know that I'm not going to compromise with hypermiling, faffing over specialist parking last minute, having to change driving style or hanging out at Services. For me the benefit of EV is extra convenience not extra inconvenience. Others are clearly happy to trade that for cost savings but for me a car is a tool that must deliver convenience and/or fun. The Rex will allow the London trip with a simple splash and dash on the way home. A couple of mates already use them for runs into Canary Wharf. The trade off being possibly a loss of fun on the twisties.

Generally I'm erring towards the REX as that looks to give far more freedom to use the car more than just local pottering.

[Amateurish]

CanAm said:

Amateurish said:

I leased a new one back in 2014 and loved it. The 60 mile winter range was a bit of a killer though...

Do you live somewhere really cold, or is this what we can expect in the UK?

I used to do a 60 mile commute in my i3 Rex and would regularly run out of charge just before the end of my journey in the winter. This was normal driving, mainly sitting at 60-70 on the A34.

Personally, I find PHers tend to overstate the real world range of EVs. Maybe everyone likes hyper miling. My experience of owning 4 EVs is that winter real world range is much less than people like to think.

[so called]

Amateurish said:

CanAm said:

Amateurish said:

I leased a new one back in 2014 and loved it. The 60 mile winter range was a bit of a killer though...

Do you live somewhere really cold, or is this what we can expect in the UK?

I used to do a 60 mile commute in my i3 Rex and would regularly run out of charge just before the end of my journey in the winter. This was normal driving, mainly sitting at 60-70 on the A34.

Personally, I find PHers tend to overstate the real world range of EVs. Maybe everyone likes hyper miling. My experience of owning 4 EVs is that winter real world range is much less than people like to think.

I used to do a 100 mile commute in my 2016 60Ah Rex.
I the summer I could get to within 2 miles of home before the Rex kicked in.
In the winter it would kick in with between 20 and 25 miles.
BUT, I stayed at arouns 60mph and wore gloves and had a blanket on my lap.

I'm on my third EV now and have slapped myself and use the climate controls.

[wobert]

Wifey has a 94Ahr i3 BEV.

I thought it’d be a hard sell to her, odd looks, no engine, individual interior.

She loves it, to the point she hates driving the BMW 3 series I have.

[ZesPak]

The wife could never get over how it looks, I've always contemplated the idea of getting her in one blindfolded (take the blindfold off once she's behind the wheel though!) to convince her how great a car it is .

I must say I've never met anyone who likes the way it looks, rather owners tolerate it.

Cracking little packages, marmite styling.

[Beaver]

ZesPak said:

The wife could never get over how it looks, I've always contemplated the idea of getting her in one blindfolded (take the blindfold off once she's behind the wheel though!) to convince her how great a car it is .

I must say I've never met anyone who likes the way it looks, rather owners tolerate it.

Cracking little packages, marmite styling.

Pleased to virtually meet you, I love the look of it.

[Daaaveee]

Beaver said:

Pleased to virtually meet you, I love the look of it.

That makes two of us I remember going to the dealers when they first received them years ago and loving it, thinking it looked like something from the future, just wasn't able to afford it at the time.

[ZesPak]

Same goes for the the Tesla Model 3 though, my wife loves the looks, I think it looks quite bland and some people seem to hate the way it looks. All the better some like it as they are brilliant cars to miss out on for such a reason.

[off_again]

DonkeyApple said:

I was simply disagreeing with someone who is very vocal about EVs being awesome because you never have to stop for 5 minutes at a petrol station yet advocates the wonder of stopping for half an hour at a charging station. Ie, I was pointing out a bit of silly thinking.

It’s really around the use case and what you do with the car. Rex owner here and being 100% honest here, we have only used public charging networks a couple of times (no subscribing to a network here). Being able to just stop and fill up with petrol is convenient and easy. And again, its less than 5 minutes as the tank is so small! It’s $10 to fill up here. In and out in 3 minutes when you pay at the pump.

DonkeyApple said:

I also have a suspicion that the whole 'Rex is a terrible drive' mantra on PH is just another of those 'driving glove' specialist views but I've only driven a Rex once and as I didn't notice the disasterous handling compares to the BEV I am stating out of that argument.

It is slightly compromised but thats about it. On certain surfaces you get a little extra pitching backwards and forwards due to the extra weight, but yeah, its absolutely fine. I drove both and on the test drive didnt notice anything, but wanted the Rex due to our circumstances. It’s certainly not bad and we always talk about it being our ‘pocket rocket’.

DonkeyApple said:

Nor do I think the buffeting on motorways is a particular issue as I'm used to taller cars on narrower tyres so it doesn't scare me but ultimately it's exactly what makes it one of the best country lane hooners of modern times.

Again, its slightly compromised and there have been a couple of times that I have found it wandering a little. But it does have pretty direct steering and a front suspension setup that is pointy, so yeah, in high winds it can dance around a little. But they do have thinner tires, so sniffing out those grooves in the road is less of an impact - so you win some, and sometimes you dont. Overall though, for what we use it for, its really not an issue.

DonkeyApple said:

I'm just undecided as to whether to go Rex or full EV. In theory, it wouldn't be the car chosen for any journey that would require stopping for a charge or changing one's driving style but I enjoyed driving it enough to consider the Rex version so it could be used for the fortnightly London commute without any hassles.

Said it before, but the Rex doesnt quite work how you might think it will. It doesn’t just add to the overall range. Here in the US, they limited the use of it, only allowing it to kick in when you get to 3% of battery left. Totally stupid and it wasn’t designed to work in this situation. The charging is marginal when at speed, so at a steady 65-75, it will barely keep up with consumption - so your charge percentage will drop. It was designed to allow you to keep charge state though - so charge to 100% for a long journey, get to 75% (thats the highest level that will allow you to kick in the Rex) and then extend the total distance you can go. Once out of fuel, you can either fill up or just use battery. So yeah, it does extend the range, just not in the way you might think.

Around town though, yeah, just use it and dont think about it. But typically its the longer highway trips that you need the Rex and as long as you consider that you will drop battery charge, its absolutely fine. The i3 forum has a bunch of owners who have done 600+ miles in a day for a road trip and its been absolutely fine, though that will mean you have to stop a couple of times for a charge though, doing that on the Rex is a bit of a non-starter. But if you need to do 200+ miles in a da (over a day, not all in one go) its really convenient and you can minimize what charging you need to do. I think the Rex really does allow you to not worry about charging, or at least having to wait, but clearly it depends on the distances involved as we get a solid 50-70 miles on petrol, so its not that far in reality.

But its really all about the use case. If this fits with what you will use it for, the Rex is great. But, if you need to do 150+ miles in a go, and you have easy access to charging, the normal BEV is probably perfectly fine. Why carry the engine with you? But, if, like us, you are typically on trips of 40-50 miles in blocks (nearest big cities to us is 35, 40 and 50 miles), it works brilliantly. The BMW dealer is 50 miles away, so the Rex makes this convenient and easy - charge to 100%, get there and drop off for a service. I dont need to hang around for a charge and can jump straight in the car for the drive home. If I need it, there is petrol to make it easy. Of course, there is an argument that it should get 250 miles out of a single charge (the Tesla service center is just down the road from the BMW dealer). And yes, that would be easier I guess. But I dont want a Tesla, I wanted a nippy little hatch that is different and weird. And having the Rex allows a lot of freedom.

Incidentally, I live near Sacramento, so there are plenty of charging points. But all pretty much no where I need them to be. There are chargers at shopping malls etc, but they are almost always taken by other EV’s for extended periods of time. So yeah, the little Pocket Rocket is simple - charger available? Nope? Ah well, no worries, just use the Rex and top up later. Simple. I am not tied to charging if I haven’t planned the trip. Just stop at one of the numerous gas stations on corners and I am out in 3-4 minutes. Yeah, its a little louder, and surprisingly its more now we have new tires, but its easy.

Oh, and thats a good point - those tires - consider this if you are looking at them! Supposedly someone on the i3 forum found a new manufacturer of them, but I will see it when I believe it. But there is just one maker and they aren’t cheap. Limits choice and availability. Not great and one thing to consider.

[DonkeyApple]

off_again said:

DonkeyApple said:

I was simply disagreeing with someone who is very vocal about EVs being awesome because you never have to stop for 5 minutes at a petrol station yet advocates the wonder of stopping for half an hour at a charging station. Ie, I was pointing out a bit of silly thinking.

Oh, and thats a good point - those tires - consider this if you are looking at them! Supposedly someone on the i3 forum found a new manufacturer of them, but I will see it when I believe it. But there is just one maker and they aren’t cheap. Limits choice and availability. Not great and one thing to consider.

Thank you for taking the time to pen all that. I definitely think the late Rex is the one to go for as the battery will easily cover all local pottering while making the run into London an option which is always going to end up being useful.

The real heads up was the tyres. They would appear to be around £500 for a set which is certainly dearer than you'd expect for a pushbike tyre.

[off_again]

DonkeyApple said:

Thank you for taking the time to pen all that. I definitely think the late Rex is the one to go for as the battery will easily cover all local pottering while making the run into London an option which is always going to end up being useful.

The real heads up was the tyres. They would appear to be around £500 for a set which is certainly dearer than you'd expect for a pushbike tyre.

Yup - Bridgestone Ecopia EP600's - We just did all four tires and the local tire place did us a deal, still cost $700 for them all. Occasionally, you can find them at $160 a tire before fitting, but stupid price for their size. Allegedly Potenzas come in the right size, and it seems some people have had success with them - but the Ecopia's have a specific wear and speed rating, which the Potenza's dont. No idea what difference that makes though.

Oh, and that is for the 19's though - the 20's are even more expensive. Personally, I think the 19 wheels are slightly nicer, but a lot of the later i3's came with the 20's as standard. Just shy of 40k miles though, and I understand that this is the second set on it, and we dont hang around when driving, so its not totally terrible.

And while I remember, if you are looking for one - couple of things to bear in mind - 12v battery is well known to go bad after 3-4 years and makes the car go haywire! Weird things happen and it looks like its completely screwed. Replace the 12v battery and it sorts out most issues. But, its not a simple replacement though. Process is straightforward but you need to re-code the battery to the car though. Its simple and you can use a small OBD2 adaptor and something like Bimmercode app to do it - its a 5 minute job. Dont pay a BMW dealer to do it! Oh, and there is no warning either - it just goes!

And other parts are standard BMW stuff. Switches etc are all off-the-shelf BMW parts and cost pennies to replace. Even the brake pads (just ordered, first time change on ours) are $78 delivered for the OEM ones! Cracking little cars.

[caseys]

I liked my 120ah 19-plate i3, even with all its issues (3 windscreens, new front suspension assembly, new drivers seat). Oh and new ARBs. And it cost far more in tires per mile than it does in energy. Maybe I wasn’t the most sympathetic driver of it.

It gave me 55k miles in 28 months. Which wasn’t bad. The id3 and even my Tesla showed how good it’d charging curve was. And it was damn efficient around town in summer. And it makes me sorely miss the dumb cruise control in it

Think it had 8% deg when I gave it back. Not bad considering I charged it to 100% nightly.

Yes it was awful to get the kids out of in a tight car parking. Space. Yes the boot was tiny and they could have expanded it when you didn’t have the REX. Yes it was incredibly noisy at 70-80mph on the motorway, especially I am told in the rear when the parcel shelf wasn’t in. Yes it got airborne too easily on humpback bridges.

But on a nice sunny evening heading home in the new forest on the windy roads it was a lovely drive.

Or getting it to drift down the beach when the promenade was a bit sandy.

Nice to drive. Really engaging to drive. Just bloody expensive to own and possibly built a bit fragile.

[Moonpie21]

The 120ah I3s is my first foray in to EV ownership picked up a 71 plate in October 21. Love the little thing, had a number of cars that are supposedly better and none of them have the charm this does.

Lots of downsides though, to think of a few off the top of my head:

- Having real trouble judging where the car starts and finishes, finding that the sensors activate too early and the creep is a bit on off jerky so hard to judge when pulling up to or reversing in to a parking spot with a pillar or wall etc.

- Energy consumption in the winter, seems to steam up real easy putting the aircon on knocks off a load of miles. Not really an issue though instead of once a week overnight on trickle I choose to do two so I can have the aircon on (charging at home off a plug soooo much better than going to a filling station). I kind of see it like a smart phone I want all the features the latest and best tech of course it'll chew through a battery quicker than a Nokia 3310, do I hold it against it... no. I don't for the smart phone I plug in every night, it's not really a chore.

- Randomly poor visibility. It's pretty much great and you think it is then just randomly you get an angle that takes you by surprise and you can't see anything.

- Quick off the line catches a few people unawares sometimes. Busy roundabouts being the trickiest to judge. You find you can pull out in to smaller gaps, the car in the entry to your left isn't expecting you so rapidly... you just have to judge both directions.

- A choppy ride from a short chassis I guess. It's fine over the Belgian pave stuff at work at speed so not really a suspension issue I don't think. But the right modulation in bumps and whoa, quite the surprise.

- The rear doors, wouldn't change them, not really an issue but can be a bit annoying 1% of the time in a confined space with a passenger or just dropping off etc.

I really have been picky though and overall much more love for it than many cars. I think it is a real shame that some concepts that were aired over the years refining the I3 never made it (maybe the questionable iVision will). I just wish they had continued this sort of unique approach over the more conventional as love it or loath it at least it was different.

More positives than negatives and certainly a feeling when I drive I don't want to give up on, perfect for my situation, wish I'd tried it sooner.

A downer to see it go and not really be replaced.

Edited by Moonpie21 on Wednesday 2nd February 13:33

[granada203028]

I think it has been a disappointment for BMW, the world wanted an electric 3 series to replace the 320d not this.

Tesla stole a big march on BMW with the model 3 but with the i4 BMW are finally here.

[DonkeyApple]

granada203028 said:

I think it has been a disappointment for BMW, the world wanted an electric 3 series to replace the 320d not this.

Tesla stole a big march on BMW with the model 3 but with the i4 BMW are finally here.

I don't really think Tesla stole a march on anyone. The incumbent firms like BMW couldn't burn $billions of shareholder capital on an all or bust gamble of reaching sustainability before the investor taps got turned off. Tesla only just managed it themselves and that was their sole reason for being. All the other firms have had to plod along at the rates that not just their shareholders and bond holders expected but also at the rate that their customers demanded.

It's only really this year that any kind of EV consumer demand has actually appeared and in the U.K. that has been driven by a singular tax change that no dividend paying company could have bet the farm on. And even though the EV market is now under way it remains tiny and the bulk of customer demand is still very much for ICE products.

All the incumbent manufacturers know they have to enter the EV space and are doing so but each one is choosing the rate at which they do so based on where their key markets are, what sort of prices their brand is capable of supporting, hedging against an ever changing tax regime across multiple markets and waiting for key component costs to reach required levels.

No one has been sitting on their hands for the last decade but working hard to determine when to enter, where and with what while bracing themselves for random changes in local policies or tech.

The i3 was a financially ring fenced , low volume, high cost, quirky car with which to test key market trends and appetites while delivering a clear public and branding statement.

It's been a huge success as it's shown BMW there isn't yet a market for some ideas but is now a market for others. It's made the public aware that BMW are doing EVs for the last decade, just look at how much hatred for BMW there has been from Tesla fans. It's given BMW the data to workout that the best next step for a mid level, relatively higher end European manufacturer of predominantly ICE powered cars has been to design a single frame that can take an ICE, hybrid or EV drivetrain depending on specific market demands. Other firms have the volume to build dedicated platforms or the losses to commit to pure EV.

And from a PHers perspective, their experiment has possibly delivered the first classic, maybe even slightly cultish EV that is finding appeal among people who don't give a damn about EVs, aren't on a fuel budget or are driven by an accountant, they just fancy a fun car that's different.

I genuinely think there is a chance that the values of these things could do much better than most other EVs whose desirability plummets each time the next big change in tech comes along. I think the i3 is weird like the Panda 4x4 and a handful of other slightly odd cars.

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

The i3 was a financially ring fenced , low volume, high cost, quirky car with which to test key market trends and appetites while delivering a clear public and branding statement.

Correct! :-) I'm absolutely sure that in real terms, BMW lost money on every i3 they sold.

But making money was not the point of this car! The point of the i3, and the reason every single one had a near real time data link back to BMW HQ was this car was the car that allowed BMW to understand how real customers used (and abused) it's electric vehicles. The traditional OE's have decades of real data and historical lessons learnt on ICE passenger cars, but practically no hard data on BEV's. Things like charging times, rates, repeats, how often do customers go WOT, how fast do they drive, what mode do they drive in. All of this is critical to establishing engineering atributes before launching into producing a volume product. Get this wrong, and the small amount of money BMW "lost" on the i3 suddenly looks like a drop in the ocean.........