Goodbye i3 production, it's been emotional.
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
It's been a huge success as it's shown BMW there isn't yet a market for some ideas but is now a market for others. It's made the public aware that BMW are doing EVs for the last decade, just look at how much hatred for BMW there has been from Tesla fans. It's given BMW the data to workout that the best next step for a mid level, relatively higher end European manufacturer of predominantly ICE powered cars has been to design a single frame that can take an ICE, hybrid or EV drivetrain depending on specific market demands. Other firms have the volume to build dedicated platforms or the losses to commit to pure EV.
Absolutely. Massive businesses like BMW have a huge number of options and they need to balance so much. Did they need to make a profit on the i3 and i8? Nope, but what they learned through the exercise is absolutely relevant - from engineering, materials, battery management, product planning etc. And much of what they have learned is already making its way into their current and future models. Dont forget that R&D typically has a tax advantage too, so I am sure they can off-set a lot of this and balance the books in very different ways.Its weird, we (well I guess I should say the average person, maybe less so the average PH member) like to look at things in a very binary way. Fastest is best? Biggest is best? Largest volume is best? Biggest stock market valuation is best? Its binary. But its way more nuanced than that. Saloons sell well in China, less so in Europe and no one is interested in the USA. Product cycles are usually over 5 years and often longer for completely new platforms. Balancing that all out with products that sell is the challenge. And then you have to make money too? Yikes, must be very complex for senior managers / directors at these global companies to rationalize things.
I am not saying that Tesla has it easy, because clearly they have other challenges, but being very focused on a limited product set (4 models) and a latent demand is relatively straightforward. Mapping out demand, product plans, technology delivery AND making money certainly looks complex to me - and thats before we apply a broader customer base. Not everyone wants a car that can do 0-60 in sub 4 seconds. Some buyers value build quality and personalization above other aspects and some people just want an appliance. Where does BMW fit in this? Great question and something I dont know. But being in the market at the right time with a suitable product is the key, and that often means picking your moment and not rushing it. The i3 is a great example here - it missed the goal, but it shows that BMW can engineer something.
I think that BMW seems to be doing it right at the moment. Could they do better? Absolutely. Could the design of the new 3-series be better? Yup. But their cars are selling well, they have jumped into a few niches and are killing it (X7, seriously, how far from the core brand is that, but hey, it sells REALLY well). Their phased approach to fit demand with their ability to deliver seems to be about right. VW seems to have rushed it with the ID3, and paid the penalty for this. Lets see how this pans out in the years to come.
One wonders if the data from the i3 customers showed BMW how their type of customer used an EV, what they values and what they didn't care about which is how they arrived at the decision that platform sharing across drivetrains was going to be more profitable for their generic offerings?
And as you point out, the market is a little bit larger than a few old boys in England and it might even be a fair observation to make that if a Brit likes something then it's probably not quite right for RoW.
And as you point out, the market is a little bit larger than a few old boys in England and it might even be a fair observation to make that if a Brit likes something then it's probably not quite right for RoW.
DonkeyApple said:
One wonders if the data from the i3 customers showed BMW how their type of customer used an EV, what they values and what they didn't care about which is how they arrived at the decision that platform sharing across drivetrains was going to be more profitable for their generic offerings?
And as you point out, the market is a little bit larger than a few old boys in England and it might even be a fair observation to make that if a Brit likes something then it's probably not quite right for RoW.
Yeah, think I know what I know - I am frequently wrong, so who knows.... but yeah, there is so much I dont know and am not aware of.... sentence too complex!And as you point out, the market is a little bit larger than a few old boys in England and it might even be a fair observation to make that if a Brit likes something then it's probably not quite right for RoW.
I was shocked when I checked the sales numbers (cant find the breakdown for 2021 at the moment), but BMW sold 118k 3 series cars in Europe in 2020. Yet sold 156k 3 series L models in China! And the gap got even larger in 2021 with 173k Chinese cars sold! Dont have the breakdown obviously, but its pretty clear that China is possibly the most important market for the 3 series. Who would have guessed it, and being a WW company, you can see where they might be focusing. Its all of these details that we arent aware of that shape and OEM's strategy.
The roadster is rare, but it’s not a classic, cult, peoples car. Massive difference. And the one roadster for sale in the UK has been for sale by the same person since Aug 2020 when it was listed for 85k, they’re now asking 135k but it’s simple not selling. There’s a comedian in the US asking $1.5m for one, that’s not selling either with used prices actually falling otherwise. US specialist battery bloke who’s a careless idiot having multiple fires and slowly wiping out many of the available cars isn’t helping.
Back to BMW, go back 30 years and it was 3 saloons (3,5,7j with some also available as a coupe, some as an estate. There’s now 30 odd models because different markets and people like different things, things that are more unique and fit their lifestyle. The 3 series became ubiquitous as a company car just as the Ford Mondeo did in the past in the uk, and that actually ends up killing it as being desirable. Who wants a rep-mobile? Maybe where the Model 3 is destined in a few years. Tesla too if they don’t increase customer choice, both in model range and customisation. BMW, VW group even more so, see everyone as a kind of niche and have a product for them. Some pundits also knock the shared iCE and EV platform, but the iX3 is showing that a good fundamental design can work irrespective, the i4 seems to be the same. It’s as if some ‘experts’ object on principle yet the average person doesn’t care if it’s shared. Did anybody get in a BMW M4 and say it was compromised because it shared a chunk of the underpinnings with a 320d estate? I suspect these cars are good because of what they learnt from the i3 and how to flexibly package. You can see BMW have roadmap options and they’re experimenting, shared platform on the iX3 and i4 and see how that goes, dedicated platform on the iX and only go hybrid on the X5 which is well reviewed. BMW and VW aren’t going to top the individual model sales leaderboard because they sell so many models. Want a Tesla, last year that meant model 3, want an electric VW? Your choice is Id3,id4, enyaq, etc etc. Tesla will sell more cars this year but I suspect no individual model will be as high up the leaderboard.
Back to BMW, go back 30 years and it was 3 saloons (3,5,7j with some also available as a coupe, some as an estate. There’s now 30 odd models because different markets and people like different things, things that are more unique and fit their lifestyle. The 3 series became ubiquitous as a company car just as the Ford Mondeo did in the past in the uk, and that actually ends up killing it as being desirable. Who wants a rep-mobile? Maybe where the Model 3 is destined in a few years. Tesla too if they don’t increase customer choice, both in model range and customisation. BMW, VW group even more so, see everyone as a kind of niche and have a product for them. Some pundits also knock the shared iCE and EV platform, but the iX3 is showing that a good fundamental design can work irrespective, the i4 seems to be the same. It’s as if some ‘experts’ object on principle yet the average person doesn’t care if it’s shared. Did anybody get in a BMW M4 and say it was compromised because it shared a chunk of the underpinnings with a 320d estate? I suspect these cars are good because of what they learnt from the i3 and how to flexibly package. You can see BMW have roadmap options and they’re experimenting, shared platform on the iX3 and i4 and see how that goes, dedicated platform on the iX and only go hybrid on the X5 which is well reviewed. BMW and VW aren’t going to top the individual model sales leaderboard because they sell so many models. Want a Tesla, last year that meant model 3, want an electric VW? Your choice is Id3,id4, enyaq, etc etc. Tesla will sell more cars this year but I suspect no individual model will be as high up the leaderboard.
gangzoom said:
DonkeyApple said:
?
And from a PHers perspective, their experiment has possibly delivered the first classic, maybe even slightly cultish EV
You haven't seen whats happened to the price of the Tesla Roadster have you? And from a PHers perspective, their experiment has possibly delivered the first classic, maybe even slightly cultish EV
.The OEM's are focusing on niches of niches these days and the only way they can do it is to platform share across a wide variety of models. Some OEM's are good at doing it, some less so. BMW has done a pretty good job, but I would suggest that Mercedes has been a little better, outside of EV's that is.
One thing that I didnt realize is what Ford has been doing. The Maverick (the little pick-up that is US only model at the moment and they just closed the books on them, because its a bit of a success!) actually uses the Escape platform! The Escape is available as the Kuga in some markets, as the Bronco Sport and Lincoln Corsair - but also the Focus too! This is clever stuff. One model that works across a number of very distinct shapes, models and types of vehicle. Its not unique and its been done before, but they have been compromised. They arent my cup of tea, but none of the Ford C2 platform cars are bad, and they are all competitively priced.
One thing that I didnt realize is what Ford has been doing. The Maverick (the little pick-up that is US only model at the moment and they just closed the books on them, because its a bit of a success!) actually uses the Escape platform! The Escape is available as the Kuga in some markets, as the Bronco Sport and Lincoln Corsair - but also the Focus too! This is clever stuff. One model that works across a number of very distinct shapes, models and types of vehicle. Its not unique and its been done before, but they have been compromised. They arent my cup of tea, but none of the Ford C2 platform cars are bad, and they are all competitively priced.
Just to add to those last two posts re VW and Ford. VW are delivering MEB based products as the ID 3 & 4 and Enyaq bit they will also roll that product out under every single generic badge they own for every shape that roughly fits.
But in order to meet their customer's cost expectations, Ford are going to be using the MEB platform in Europe.
That's going to be a huge number of modest, generic EVs that have no individual character other than what's glued on. Like going back to the 70s when everyone had a denim jacket and was only able to differentiate themselves by what badges they pinned on them.
You can feel the problem with the way VW reskins the Tuareg. Porsche possibly does the best job of changing the car but you can't escape that if you sent Stevie Wonder over to each in turn he'd find the door handles in the same place, the seats and numerous controls. It's an almost imperceptible bit subconsciously tangible thing that makes you feel the product isn't quite worth what the badge on it is asking you to stump up.
But with the i3 you get the same familiar switchgear bolted in to something that isn't something else and I think that in some hard to define way, that matters.
But in order to meet their customer's cost expectations, Ford are going to be using the MEB platform in Europe.
That's going to be a huge number of modest, generic EVs that have no individual character other than what's glued on. Like going back to the 70s when everyone had a denim jacket and was only able to differentiate themselves by what badges they pinned on them.
You can feel the problem with the way VW reskins the Tuareg. Porsche possibly does the best job of changing the car but you can't escape that if you sent Stevie Wonder over to each in turn he'd find the door handles in the same place, the seats and numerous controls. It's an almost imperceptible bit subconsciously tangible thing that makes you feel the product isn't quite worth what the badge on it is asking you to stump up.
But with the i3 you get the same familiar switchgear bolted in to something that isn't something else and I think that in some hard to define way, that matters.
gangzoom said:
Heres Johnny said:
The roadster is rare, but it’s not a classic, cult, peoples car.
That's funny because you love to accuse Tesla owners of been in a cult, and if a old collectable cars isn't a 'classic' I don't know what it.As for the i3 been a 'peoples car' you are joking right??
The automotive hall of fame includes the original mini, the 2CV, cars that are full of character and charisma, deliver beyond expectations, the i3 fits that criteria.
Edited by Heres Johnny on Thursday 3rd February 08:00
DonkeyApple said:
One wonders if the data from the i3 customers showed BMW how their type of customer used an EV, what they values and what they didn't care about which is how they arrived at the decision that platform sharing across drivetrains was going to be more profitable for their generic offerings?
And as you point out, the market is a little bit larger than a few old boys in England and it might even be a fair observation to make that if a Brit likes something then it's probably not quite right for RoW.
I don't think its the data from i3 buyers that have led to a switch to EV powered traditional SUV platforms. i3 owners seem to love them and many have had more than one and i believe they sold more as they went through the life cycle.And as you point out, the market is a little bit larger than a few old boys in England and it might even be a fair observation to make that if a Brit likes something then it's probably not quite right for RoW.
I suspect its the data from existing BMW ICE owners who can't see beyond what they already have but with a EV powertrain !
carl0 said:
I don't think its the data from i3 buyers that have led to a switch to EV powered traditional SUV platforms. i3 owners seem to love them and many have had more than one and i believe they sold more as they went through the life cycle.
I suspect its the data from existing BMW ICE owners who can't see beyond what they already have but with a EV powertrain !
Possibly both. I know I chose a BMW estate over an Audi or Merc equivalent because it had a handbrake and didn't have a TV glued to the dash like I was running a minicab. I suspect its the data from existing BMW ICE owners who can't see beyond what they already have but with a EV powertrain !
. It also has boring old dials which I thought was a refreshing change. But then I like the i3 because it drives like 70s saloon/80s hatch so I'm hardly a relevant demographic. I think they may have seen that typical i3 owners weren't hugely obsessed with the fastest or most efficient performance and maybe saw that buyers of 3/5/7 series cars weren't cutting edge fashionistas and would feel more comfortable getting tax savings while retaining the same sort of car?
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Maybe, I put it up there with the original mini and other engineering gems but I doubt it’s selling numbers mean it’ll never be seen as an all time great.
I wonder what would have happened if BTS or OneDirection bought a fleet of i3's and ran around the cities of the world in them? Or a bunch of influencers had them and took them to a coach builder to have them updated with luxury leather etc? I wonder.... then again, I need to get out more....DonkeyApple said:
Generally I'm erring towards the REX as that looks to give far more freedom to use the car more than just local pottering.
Just get a Rex then, although be aware that it's not congestion charge exempt any more if you're planning to use it to drive through London.I have a non-S Rex and it handles just fine, it does roll a bit but there's way more grip than you'd expect from 155/175 tyres.
Bombed into work and back today in ours. About 8 degrees and windy AF, 145 mile range when I got in, bum toaster on full whack and 22 degrees on the heater.
Fairly steady 60mph a road there and traffic so plenty of overtaking on the way back. Normal mode there and sport on the way home.
After 11 miles there and 11 back range was still 136 tonight.
120ah i3S
Fairly steady 60mph a road there and traffic so plenty of overtaking on the way back. Normal mode there and sport on the way home.
After 11 miles there and 11 back range was still 136 tonight.
120ah i3S
If anyone is thinking of getting an I3 as a car to sit alongside a ICE car then do it! We picked up a new I3S in January to sit alongside our 530d touring. Use the 530d for long trips, but day to day we use the I3S most of the time. Fun little car. Handling balance is fun - you can boot it out of junctions and get a little slip from the rear. We’ve got 2 kids - one and four and it is really easy to get them in and out with the rear suicide doors. Yes, the rear doors mean you have to avoid parking next to other vehicles in a supermarket, but I’d avoid that in the 5 series anyway! Lots of character, funky looks and fun to drive. Future classic for sure.
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