Mr Petrol's early thoughts on the move to EV
Discussion
M.F.D said:
T1berious said:
As it stands I totally agree but I don't think it will remain that way forever. The Taycan has proven that an EV can be entertaining (at a cost) and as that tech trickles down to the rest of the range I've no doubt that the EV replacement for the Cayman will tick a lot of boxes for some.
Will be very interesting to see what the next five years of development bring but yes, right now, in the sub 50k fun car market an EV isn't the answer.
Define fun though?Will be very interesting to see what the next five years of development bring but yes, right now, in the sub 50k fun car market an EV isn't the answer.
There will never be the noise, drama, smell, feel etc that comes with a properly entertaining and mechanical ICE car. At best they will become competent performance cars, but fun, probably not ever.
Can you imagine going to a track day to watch a bunch of silent cars going round....
A big thing for me is throttle (not that we can call it that anymore..) response. Many long term performance car fanatics resent the move to forced induction because of the slight disconnect between throttle and reaction - EV however is sharper than N/A ever was in that regard. Also throttle application past the apex of a corner, 40->80mph overtaking ability and so on.
New is different, but not necessarily bad.
964Cup said:
TheDeuce said:
I'd agree that sub 50k there's no real 'fun' EV's to be had. some would point to the Tesla model 3 but... I feel those that would haven't experienced a decent sports tuned chassis - which the model 3 is a million miles from.
On the plus side I don't think we'll have to wait too long for some really fun EV roadsters to come along. The tech is already there to produce, for example, an all electric Z4 at a perfectly reasonable size/weight and with exhilarating performance, provided range isn't an issue. And frankly, why should range be an issue for a fun two seater? Most of the target audience don't buy such cars to do long trips anyway.. most people will have also have a second car as a two seater is generally impractical.
150mile official range, realistically 100 mile carefree and sporty driving could be achieved with a relatively small and crucially light and cheap battery pack. That sort of range would surely be enough for the average ICE roadster drivers mileage profile.
I genuinely believe that the only reason we haven't seen such cars just yet is that SUV's and other larger cars are simply a safer bet in terms of demand and also can accommodate enough batteries to give the car enough range to not worry people. In reality, more fun EV's just don't need that sort of range - albeit probably a hard sell initially because range does worry people, even if it's more than sufficient for their needs.
I don't know about you, but I'd need rather more range than that. I quite like using my fun car to get places (I'm about to do a 600 mile round trip in 24 hours) and I wouldn't want to be forced to take the family ICE wagon instead because there is a dead spot with no chargers somewhere en route. We looked (slightly OT I know) at a Taycan 4S ST to replace the family wagon, but realised that you basically can't drive, e.g., from London to Northern Italy because the A5 in France has a gap between chargers that exceeds the Taycan's winter motorway range. I'm sure they'll build more, but until they have, and they work reliably it appears to be Tesla or nothing if you want to use the cars normally. And I won't have a Tesla.On the plus side I don't think we'll have to wait too long for some really fun EV roadsters to come along. The tech is already there to produce, for example, an all electric Z4 at a perfectly reasonable size/weight and with exhilarating performance, provided range isn't an issue. And frankly, why should range be an issue for a fun two seater? Most of the target audience don't buy such cars to do long trips anyway.. most people will have also have a second car as a two seater is generally impractical.
150mile official range, realistically 100 mile carefree and sporty driving could be achieved with a relatively small and crucially light and cheap battery pack. That sort of range would surely be enough for the average ICE roadster drivers mileage profile.
I genuinely believe that the only reason we haven't seen such cars just yet is that SUV's and other larger cars are simply a safer bet in terms of demand and also can accommodate enough batteries to give the car enough range to not worry people. In reality, more fun EV's just don't need that sort of range - albeit probably a hard sell initially because range does worry people, even if it's more than sufficient for their needs.
I think there's a big market out there for people that want to be 'green' or at least jump on that bandwagon, who might like the idea of a very quick and fun two seater, safe in the knowledge that the diesel SUV daily remains on the drive.
T1berious said:
The bad
A few of the chargers for what ever reason were not working, it was pretty full with cars being charged up so it was a case of waiting for a car that was being charged to leave, at least that way you knew it worked.
It being a Saturday probably didn't help but the machine wasn't particularly helpful. Insert CCS 2, pay, then it would say Remove cable Charging complete. Er it hadn't started. Go to another machine, the same. Bloke next to my charger thankfully explained "Yeah, that happened to me some don't work".
So that was that mystery solved (rather then me be a bit of a muppet, it just wasn't working).
Eventually got on one that worked and instantly was charging at 80Kw. As I understand it when loads of cars are charging the rate drops so was happy with as it was pretty busy.
As counter, I charged my EV6 3 times at ultra-rapids over the weekend - 2 new Gridserves (free vend!) and one Ionity - twice only car there and one wait for 4 minutes, all charges started first time, no issues. Started weekend at 100%, 487 miles driven, less than 1.25 hours total charging time, back home with 30%.A few of the chargers for what ever reason were not working, it was pretty full with cars being charged up so it was a case of waiting for a car that was being charged to leave, at least that way you knew it worked.
It being a Saturday probably didn't help but the machine wasn't particularly helpful. Insert CCS 2, pay, then it would say Remove cable Charging complete. Er it hadn't started. Go to another machine, the same. Bloke next to my charger thankfully explained "Yeah, that happened to me some don't work".
So that was that mystery solved (rather then me be a bit of a muppet, it just wasn't working).
Eventually got on one that worked and instantly was charging at 80Kw. As I understand it when loads of cars are charging the rate drops so was happy with as it was pretty busy.
JonChalk said:
As counter, I charged my EV6 3 times at ultra-rapids over the weekend - 2 new Gridserves (free vend!) and one Ionity - twice only car there and one wait for 4 minutes, all charges started first time, no issues. Started weekend at 100%, 487 miles driven, less than 1.25 hours total charging time, back home with 30%.
Hold the phone! Free vend!You're going to have to give the details on that!
T1berious said:
Fun as a concept will differ person to person or driver to driver. Perfect example: The Audi RS3. Until this model year, it was never considered a "Fun" car by the motoring press. Massively competent but not fun, Chassis engineered to understeer being often cited as its fun chops downfall. Enter the new model, Audi have listened and turned it into a car the journo's agree is now fun (Drift mode \ Oversteer switch added for added um marketing? Or Fun, if you're less cynical).
Point is a lot of what has now made the RS3 more fun is down to software, agreed there has been chassis tweaks but the heavy lifting is down to software and allowed slip angles etc.
So fast forward 5 or 10 years those dull EV's might have engineered "playfulness" that we currently expect from a properly sorted chassis. I think the RWD Taycan's drift record or VW's ID Race car all point to fun being on the agenda at some point in the future.
The problem right now is battery weight and manufacturers needing to recoup their R&D costs. Solid state batteries will hopefully answer the weight problem but will be expensive till it hits the mainstream.
On the sound front, I recently heard a Taycan pass and wondered what all that noise was as its an EV. There, in the options is a sound generator!
Will it sound as good as a v10 screaming at 8.5k rpm? Of course not but just because its different doesn't mean that some won't find it fun!
Looks like fun to me! But I accept one persons fun is another persons bad time, after all we're all different.
Well that's the thing, fun is subjective isn't it.Point is a lot of what has now made the RS3 more fun is down to software, agreed there has been chassis tweaks but the heavy lifting is down to software and allowed slip angles etc.
So fast forward 5 or 10 years those dull EV's might have engineered "playfulness" that we currently expect from a properly sorted chassis. I think the RWD Taycan's drift record or VW's ID Race car all point to fun being on the agenda at some point in the future.
The problem right now is battery weight and manufacturers needing to recoup their R&D costs. Solid state batteries will hopefully answer the weight problem but will be expensive till it hits the mainstream.
On the sound front, I recently heard a Taycan pass and wondered what all that noise was as its an EV. There, in the options is a sound generator!
Will it sound as good as a v10 screaming at 8.5k rpm? Of course not but just because its different doesn't mean that some won't find it fun!
Looks like fun to me! But I accept one persons fun is another persons bad time, after all we're all different.
he RS3. All is has going for it is the 5pot (absolute cracker) and straight line performance. Let's not kid on that even the new one is going to be anything more than the above, albeit with 'drift' mode or whatever. It still won't be a drivers car.
Maybe it's me, but the whole part of the fun experience is an ICE engine, manual gearbox and a nice chassis. This cannot be replicated with fake noise being fed into the cabin.
I fully understand that the future will bring some more dynamic characteristics to these EV's and I have absolutely no doubt that they will become hugely competent, but they'll never replace a proper drivers car IMO.
T1berious said:
JonChalk said:
As counter, I charged my EV6 3 times at ultra-rapids over the weekend - 2 new Gridserves (free vend!) and one Ionity - twice only car there and one wait for 4 minutes, all charges started first time, no issues. Started weekend at 100%, 487 miles driven, less than 1.25 hours total charging time, back home with 30%.
Hold the phone! Free vend!You're going to have to give the details on that!
M.F.D said:
Well that's the thing, fun is subjective isn't it.
he RS3. All is has going for it is the 5pot (absolute cracker) and straight line performance. Let's not kid on that even the new one is going to be anything more than the above, albeit with 'drift' mode or whatever. It still won't be a drivers car.
Maybe it's me, but the whole part of the fun experience is an ICE engine, manual gearbox and a nice chassis. This cannot be replicated with fake noise being fed into the cabin.
I fully understand that the future will bring some more dynamic characteristics to these EV's and I have absolutely no doubt that they will become hugely competent, but they'll never replace a proper drivers car IMO.
I think it's a bit harsh to say they'll never be a true drivers car.he RS3. All is has going for it is the 5pot (absolute cracker) and straight line performance. Let's not kid on that even the new one is going to be anything more than the above, albeit with 'drift' mode or whatever. It still won't be a drivers car.
Maybe it's me, but the whole part of the fun experience is an ICE engine, manual gearbox and a nice chassis. This cannot be replicated with fake noise being fed into the cabin.
I fully understand that the future will bring some more dynamic characteristics to these EV's and I have absolutely no doubt that they will become hugely competent, but they'll never replace a proper drivers car IMO.
Aside from the current weight issue, they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car. Once the weight is lost, there's no reason an EV won't deliver the same dynamics as an equivalent ICE but several reasons for how it will exceed an equivalent ICE.
I accept that there's no real sound (other than natural tyre squeal..) and that some people will miss waggling a gear stick around.. but in terms of getting a car down a b-road as quickly as possible, gear changes and engine noise aren't useful. I appreciate there's more drama as you downshift and blip the throttle heading in to a corner.. but a driver that's passionate about getting through the corner as quickly and neatly as possible would chose to sack off the gear change if they could.
It really depends on how you define 'drivers car'.
M.F.D said:
Well that's the thing, fun is subjective isn't it.
he RS3. All is has going for it is the 5pot (absolute cracker) and straight line performance. Let's not kid on that even the new one is going to be anything more than the above, albeit with 'drift' mode or whatever. It still won't be a drivers car.
Maybe it's me, but the whole part of the fun experience is an ICE engine, manual gearbox and a nice chassis. This cannot be replicated with fake noise being fed into the cabin.
I fully understand that the future will bring some more dynamic characteristics to these EV's and I have absolutely no doubt that they will become hugely competent, but they'll never replace a proper drivers car IMO.
I think the issue you raise has little or nothing to do with EV. 99.99% of new cars on sale today aren't what you describe as 'drivers cars' whatever the propulsion method.he RS3. All is has going for it is the 5pot (absolute cracker) and straight line performance. Let's not kid on that even the new one is going to be anything more than the above, albeit with 'drift' mode or whatever. It still won't be a drivers car.
Maybe it's me, but the whole part of the fun experience is an ICE engine, manual gearbox and a nice chassis. This cannot be replicated with fake noise being fed into the cabin.
I fully understand that the future will bring some more dynamic characteristics to these EV's and I have absolutely no doubt that they will become hugely competent, but they'll never replace a proper drivers car IMO.
Something like the Alpine A110 wouldn't meet your definition as has a paddle shift gearbox, as do the vast majority of modern supercars etc.
There are a tiny handful of performance cars with manual gearboxes and interesting/sonorous engines available, If that's what you are after then the used market is already the obvious/only choice and has been for a few years, predating the explosion of EV's.
TheDeuce said:
Aside from the current weight issue, they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car. Once the weight is lost, there's no reason an EV won't deliver the same dynamics as an equivalent ICE but several reasons for how it will exceed an equivalent ICE.
They are exceptionally quick and responsive but the drivetrain is devoid of involvement for the enthusiast, and extracting the performance is something a 5 year old could manage.Great everyday cars and would never swap back to ICE for that purpose (Unless I suddenly needed to do 300+ miles per day regularly) but not something I would choose just for the fun of driving.
Edited by SWoll on Monday 7th February 09:25
TheDeuce said:
I think it's a bit harsh to say they'll never be a true drivers car.
Aside from the current weight issue, they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car. Once the weight is lost, there's no reason an EV won't deliver the same dynamics as an equivalent ICE but several reasons for how it will exceed an equivalent ICE.
I accept that there's no real sound (other than natural tyre squeal..) and that some people will miss waggling a gear stick around.. but in terms of getting a car down a b-road as quickly as possible, gear changes and engine noise aren't useful. I appreciate there's more drama as you downshift and blip the throttle heading in to a corner.. but a driver that's passionate about getting through the corner as quickly and neatly as possible would chose to sack off the gear change if they could.
It really depends on how you define 'drivers car'.
It isn't though. Not to say it is a bad car, but it isn't dynamic like a Megane trophy, or an Exige for example. It's a rapid point and squirt car, and a smashing one at that.Aside from the current weight issue, they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car. Once the weight is lost, there's no reason an EV won't deliver the same dynamics as an equivalent ICE but several reasons for how it will exceed an equivalent ICE.
I accept that there's no real sound (other than natural tyre squeal..) and that some people will miss waggling a gear stick around.. but in terms of getting a car down a b-road as quickly as possible, gear changes and engine noise aren't useful. I appreciate there's more drama as you downshift and blip the throttle heading in to a corner.. but a driver that's passionate about getting through the corner as quickly and neatly as possible would chose to sack off the gear change if they could.
It really depends on how you define 'drivers car'.
This is the issue, and where I totally disagree. I recently had an M135i (brand new - 4WD F40 model) on a fairly long loan over a period of a good few months. This was while my JDM Impreza STI was getting work done. The M135i was identical in terms of straight line pace, and a very usable point to point car with the auto box and modern engine. However it was unbelievably boring, I just pointed the thing and off I went. The Impreza on the other hand had to be driven harder and was so much more rewarding to drive fast. It never failed to put a smile on my face and was a proper event when driving.
EV's are fast, but they aren't dynamic, engaging or rewarding to drive. Like I said before, if you like drag racing people from the lights, then I can maybe see the appeal but just because they are 'faster' than an ICE car, doesn't mean they are a drivers car.
"they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car" - don't agree, infact this is nonsense.
M.F.D said:
TheDeuce said:
I think it's a bit harsh to say they'll never be a true drivers car.
Aside from the current weight issue, they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car. Once the weight is lost, there's no reason an EV won't deliver the same dynamics as an equivalent ICE but several reasons for how it will exceed an equivalent ICE.
I accept that there's no real sound (other than natural tyre squeal..) and that some people will miss waggling a gear stick around.. but in terms of getting a car down a b-road as quickly as possible, gear changes and engine noise aren't useful. I appreciate there's more drama as you downshift and blip the throttle heading in to a corner.. but a driver that's passionate about getting through the corner as quickly and neatly as possible would chose to sack off the gear change if they could.
It really depends on how you define 'drivers car'.
It isn't though. Not to say it is a bad car, but it isn't dynamic like a Megane trophy, or an Exige for example. It's a rapid point and squirt car, and a smashing one at that.Aside from the current weight issue, they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car. Once the weight is lost, there's no reason an EV won't deliver the same dynamics as an equivalent ICE but several reasons for how it will exceed an equivalent ICE.
I accept that there's no real sound (other than natural tyre squeal..) and that some people will miss waggling a gear stick around.. but in terms of getting a car down a b-road as quickly as possible, gear changes and engine noise aren't useful. I appreciate there's more drama as you downshift and blip the throttle heading in to a corner.. but a driver that's passionate about getting through the corner as quickly and neatly as possible would chose to sack off the gear change if they could.
It really depends on how you define 'drivers car'.
This is the issue, and where I totally disagree. I recently had an M135i (brand new - 4WD F40 model) on a fairly long loan over a period of a good few months. This was while my JDM Impreza STI was getting work done. The M135i was identical in terms of straight line pace, and a very usable point to point car with the auto box and modern engine. However it was unbelievably boring, I just pointed the thing and off I went. The Impreza on the other hand had to be driven harder and was so much more rewarding to drive fast. It never failed to put a smile on my face and was a proper event when driving.
EV's are fast, but they aren't dynamic, engaging or rewarding to drive. Like I said before, if you like drag racing people from the lights, then I can maybe see the appeal but just because they are 'faster' than an ICE car, doesn't mean they are a drivers car.
"they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car" - don't agree, infact this is nonsense.
I understand and agree that the M135i is never going be as engaging and raw as the STI. That's not because of the what's powering the BMW though, it's because they've designed the car a very different way.
I stand by my sentiment that an electric power train, without the current weight compromise, is superior in terms of performance. Take the excess weight out of the equation and you have more immediate and linear torque than ICE, a lower COG, no requirement to interrupt power delivery with gear changes, a perfect weight distribution and a level of mechanical traction that the best ICE AWD arrangements can't match. I understand most of that might not appeal you.. but in terms of performance potential these are all very good qualities.
What is it in performance terms that you think ICE can continue to do better?
SWoll said:
M.F.D said:
Well that's the thing, fun is subjective isn't it.
he RS3. All is has going for it is the 5pot (absolute cracker) and straight line performance. Let's not kid on that even the new one is going to be anything more than the above, albeit with 'drift' mode or whatever. It still won't be a drivers car.
Maybe it's me, but the whole part of the fun experience is an ICE engine, manual gearbox and a nice chassis. This cannot be replicated with fake noise being fed into the cabin.
I fully understand that the future will bring some more dynamic characteristics to these EV's and I have absolutely no doubt that they will become hugely competent, but they'll never replace a proper drivers car IMO.
I think the issue you raise has little or nothing to do with EV. 99.99% of new cars on sale today aren't what you describe as 'drivers cars' whatever the propulsion method.he RS3. All is has going for it is the 5pot (absolute cracker) and straight line performance. Let's not kid on that even the new one is going to be anything more than the above, albeit with 'drift' mode or whatever. It still won't be a drivers car.
Maybe it's me, but the whole part of the fun experience is an ICE engine, manual gearbox and a nice chassis. This cannot be replicated with fake noise being fed into the cabin.
I fully understand that the future will bring some more dynamic characteristics to these EV's and I have absolutely no doubt that they will become hugely competent, but they'll never replace a proper drivers car IMO.
Something like the Alpine A110 wouldn't meet your definition as has a paddle shift gearbox, as do the vast majority of modern supercars etc.
There are a tiny handful of performance cars with manual gearboxes and interesting/sonorous engines available, If that's what you are after then the used market is already the obvious/only choice and has been for a few years, predating the explosion of EV's.
TheDeuce said:
Aside from the current weight issue, they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car. Once the weight is lost, there's no reason an EV won't deliver the same dynamics as an equivalent ICE but several reasons for how it will exceed an equivalent ICE.
They are exceptionally quick and responsive but the drivetrain is devoid of involvement for the enthusiast, and extracting the performance is something a 5 year old could manage.Great everyday cars and would never swap back to ICE for that purpose (Unless I suddenly needed to do 300+ miles per day regularly) but not something I would choose just for the fun of driving.
Edited by SWoll on Monday 7th February 09:25
M.F.D said:
Define fun though?
There will never be the noise, drama, smell, feel etc that comes with a properly entertaining and mechanical ICE car. At best they will become competent performance cars, but fun, probably not ever.
Can you imagine going to a track day to watch a bunch of silent cars going round....
Luckily if you want all that you can buy a horse and go point to pointing. Far more ‘soul’ than an ICE car - for one it’s actually a living creature.There will never be the noise, drama, smell, feel etc that comes with a properly entertaining and mechanical ICE car. At best they will become competent performance cars, but fun, probably not ever.
Can you imagine going to a track day to watch a bunch of silent cars going round....
TheDeuce said:
I don't know which EV specifically you're talking about but I am talking about what an EV could be as and when the weight issue is solved.
I understand and agree that the M135i is never going be as engaging and raw as the STI. That's not because of the what's powering the BMW though, it's because they've designed the car a very different way.
I stand by my sentiment that an electric power train, without the current weight compromise, is superior in terms of performance. Take the excess weight out of the equation and you have more immediate and linear torque than ICE, a lower COG, no requirement to interrupt power delivery with gear changes, a perfect weight distribution and a level of mechanical traction that the best ICE AWD arrangements can't match. I understand most of that might not appeal you.. but in terms of performance potential these are all very good qualities.
What is it in performance terms that you think ICE can continue to do better?
Any and every EV. Taycan, Plaid etc, whatever.I understand and agree that the M135i is never going be as engaging and raw as the STI. That's not because of the what's powering the BMW though, it's because they've designed the car a very different way.
I stand by my sentiment that an electric power train, without the current weight compromise, is superior in terms of performance. Take the excess weight out of the equation and you have more immediate and linear torque than ICE, a lower COG, no requirement to interrupt power delivery with gear changes, a perfect weight distribution and a level of mechanical traction that the best ICE AWD arrangements can't match. I understand most of that might not appeal you.. but in terms of performance potential these are all very good qualities.
What is it in performance terms that you think ICE can continue to do better?
Again, no disputes, they are absolute missiles, especially in a straight line. But you don't really drive these cars do you? Point, foot down, hang on. You don't even have to paddle up. How on earth is this rewarding or engaging the driver??
My point with the M135i vs Impreza is that on paper the performance was incredibly similar on paper, but one was dull and the other exciting. I couldn't wait to get the Impreza back.
Maybe you should go and drive something special and then you'll understand. I would guarantee that if you drove an F40 and a Taycan back to back, you would have a much better time in the old, slower Ferrari.
M.F.D said:
It isn't though. Not to say it is a bad car, but it isn't dynamic like a Megane trophy, or an Exige for example. It's a rapid point and squirt car, and a smashing one at that.
This is the issue, and where I totally disagree. I recently had an M135i (brand new - 4WD F40 model) on a fairly long loan over a period of a good few months. This was while my JDM Impreza STI was getting work done. The M135i was identical in terms of straight line pace, and a very usable point to point car with the auto box and modern engine. However it was unbelievably boring, I just pointed the thing and off I went. The Impreza on the other hand had to be driven harder and was so much more rewarding to drive fast. It never failed to put a smile on my face and was a proper event when driving.
EV's are fast, but they aren't dynamic, engaging or rewarding to drive. Like I said before, if you like drag racing people from the lights, then I can maybe see the appeal but just because they are 'faster' than an ICE car, doesn't mean they are a drivers car.
"they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car" - don't agree, infact this is nonsense.
I have to agree. Currently there are just too many factors against an EV being considered a drivers car. However, its not really fair comparing any EV to a car that was a bit of a performance hero at its price point at that point in time.This is the issue, and where I totally disagree. I recently had an M135i (brand new - 4WD F40 model) on a fairly long loan over a period of a good few months. This was while my JDM Impreza STI was getting work done. The M135i was identical in terms of straight line pace, and a very usable point to point car with the auto box and modern engine. However it was unbelievably boring, I just pointed the thing and off I went. The Impreza on the other hand had to be driven harder and was so much more rewarding to drive fast. It never failed to put a smile on my face and was a proper event when driving.
EV's are fast, but they aren't dynamic, engaging or rewarding to drive. Like I said before, if you like drag racing people from the lights, then I can maybe see the appeal but just because they are 'faster' than an ICE car, doesn't mean they are a drivers car.
"they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car" - don't agree, infact this is nonsense.
It's like me saying "Meh, its not nearly as entertaining as my 1.6 205 GTi"
Nothing this side of a Megane Trophy would be able to do that (IMHO). Its like the great Golf R debate. Absolutely a brilliant car but for pure entertainment you'd look elsewhere.
I think the next few generations will see smaller, lighter EV's with more focus on entertainment. It's not here yet but if this is anything to go by, it's not too far away.
We've just bought an Electric MINI to replace our 11 year old Cooper S.
The 0-60 times are the same, but the instant torque of the Electric MINI compared to to the ICE is superb and it carries the extra 200Kg over the R56 Cooper S around corners very well.
The difference between the F56 Electric and Petrol is ~110Kg (if Auto Trader is to be believed).
The 0-60 times are the same, but the instant torque of the Electric MINI compared to to the ICE is superb and it carries the extra 200Kg over the R56 Cooper S around corners very well.
The difference between the F56 Electric and Petrol is ~110Kg (if Auto Trader is to be believed).
Maracus said:
We've just bought an Electric MINI to replace our 11 year old Cooper S.
The 0-60 times are the same, but the instant torque of the Electric MINI compared to to the ICE is superb and it carries the extra 200Kg over the R56 Cooper S around corners very well.
The difference between the F56 Electric and Petrol is ~110Kg (if Auto Trader is to be believed).
Same here, just collected the SE and I'm looking forward to some side-by side comparison with the Clio RS. The 0-60 times are the same, but the instant torque of the Electric MINI compared to to the ICE is superb and it carries the extra 200Kg over the R56 Cooper S around corners very well.
The difference between the F56 Electric and Petrol is ~110Kg (if Auto Trader is to be believed).
The first impression is that the Mini delivers more, with much less effort. However after 16 years of ownership I know the Clio like the back of my hand so I really need to learn how to drive the Mini, but so far I'm really (positively) impressed.
And for sure it will need to be tested in different roads to see how it really drives.
M.F.D said:
TheDeuce said:
I don't know which EV specifically you're talking about but I am talking about what an EV could be as and when the weight issue is solved.
I understand and agree that the M135i is never going be as engaging and raw as the STI. That's not because of the what's powering the BMW though, it's because they've designed the car a very different way.
I stand by my sentiment that an electric power train, without the current weight compromise, is superior in terms of performance. Take the excess weight out of the equation and you have more immediate and linear torque than ICE, a lower COG, no requirement to interrupt power delivery with gear changes, a perfect weight distribution and a level of mechanical traction that the best ICE AWD arrangements can't match. I understand most of that might not appeal you.. but in terms of performance potential these are all very good qualities.
What is it in performance terms that you think ICE can continue to do better?
Any and every EV. Taycan, Plaid etc, whatever.I understand and agree that the M135i is never going be as engaging and raw as the STI. That's not because of the what's powering the BMW though, it's because they've designed the car a very different way.
I stand by my sentiment that an electric power train, without the current weight compromise, is superior in terms of performance. Take the excess weight out of the equation and you have more immediate and linear torque than ICE, a lower COG, no requirement to interrupt power delivery with gear changes, a perfect weight distribution and a level of mechanical traction that the best ICE AWD arrangements can't match. I understand most of that might not appeal you.. but in terms of performance potential these are all very good qualities.
What is it in performance terms that you think ICE can continue to do better?
Again, no disputes, they are absolute missiles, especially in a straight line. But you don't really drive these cars do you? Point, foot down, hang on. You don't even have to paddle up. How on earth is this rewarding or engaging the driver??
My point with the M135i vs Impreza is that on paper the performance was incredibly similar on paper, but one was dull and the other exciting. I couldn't wait to get the Impreza back.
Maybe you should go and drive something special and then you'll understand. I would guarantee that if you drove an F40 and a Taycan back to back, you would have a much better time in the old, slower Ferrari.
I completely agree that every EV up to and including the taycan is currently compromised - because of weight. My original point was that dynamically, if that weight could be reduced to equivalent ICE levels, then in pure performance terms the EV power train is superior.
For the last hundred plus years ICE performance car manufacturers have sought to increase power, smooth power curve, reduce gear shift times, increase rpm - electrification takes all these things to the next level.
I actually agree with that the more engaging a car the more fun it is and the more appealing as a driver and car fan. I never said anything against that - my comments are based purely on performance potential of EV Vs ICE. I personally can't think of a single performance advantage ICE has over EV other than the current weight penalty.
TheDeuce said:
I think you need to re-read what I've actually said.
I completely agree that every EV up to and including the taycan is currently compromised - because of weight. My original point was that dynamically, if that weight could be reduced to equivalent ICE levels, then in pure performance terms the EV power train is superior.
For the last hundred plus years ICE performance car manufacturers have sought to increase power, smooth power curve, reduce gear shift times, increase rpm - electrification takes all these things to the next level.
I actually agree with that the more engaging a car the more fun it is and the more appealing as a driver and car fan. I never said anything against that - my comments are based purely on performance potential of EV Vs ICE. I personally can't think of a single performance advantage ICE has over EV other than the current weight penalty.
No, I can read fine thanks. You said "they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car".I completely agree that every EV up to and including the taycan is currently compromised - because of weight. My original point was that dynamically, if that weight could be reduced to equivalent ICE levels, then in pure performance terms the EV power train is superior.
For the last hundred plus years ICE performance car manufacturers have sought to increase power, smooth power curve, reduce gear shift times, increase rpm - electrification takes all these things to the next level.
I actually agree with that the more engaging a car the more fun it is and the more appealing as a driver and car fan. I never said anything against that - my comments are based purely on performance potential of EV Vs ICE. I personally can't think of a single performance advantage ICE has over EV other than the current weight penalty.
I'm just telling you that there is more to a drivers car than just outright pace. I feel like a broken record here, but even when/if they make a lightweight EV with a decent chassis, it will still just be a glorified milk float.
I'll ask you this, as a petrolhead. What attributes of any EV make it a drivers car? Not a fast car, but a drivers car?
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