Mr Petrol's early thoughts on the move to EV

[SWoll]

M.F.D said:

I would agree, but I would still regard some supercars/more special models with dual clutch boxes as divers cars too, but these are far a few between.

As would I. But then imagine a car like the A110 or a Yaris GR with the drivertrain replaced with an EV equivalent that weighed the same. I personally don't believe it would be anywhere near as engaging.

Ruthless efficiency is rarely sexy or fun, no matter how impressive.

[TheDeuce]

M.F.D said:

TheDeuce said:

I think you need to re-read what I've actually said.

I completely agree that every EV up to and including the taycan is currently compromised - because of weight. My original point was that dynamically, if that weight could be reduced to equivalent ICE levels, then in pure performance terms the EV power train is superior.

For the last hundred plus years ICE performance car manufacturers have sought to increase power, smooth power curve, reduce gear shift times, increase rpm - electrification takes all these things to the next level.

I actually agree with that the more engaging a car the more fun it is and the more appealing as a driver and car fan. I never said anything against that - my comments are based purely on performance potential of EV Vs ICE. I personally can't think of a single performance advantage ICE has over EV other than the current weight penalty.

No, I can read fine thanks. You said "they out perform an ICE in every way as a drivers car".

I'm just telling you that there is more to a drivers car than just outright pace. I feel like a broken record here, but even when/if they make a lightweight EV with a decent chassis, it will still just be a glorified milk float.

I'll ask you this, as a petrolhead. What attributes of any EV make it a drivers car? Not a fast car, but a drivers car?

We're getting hung up over definitions here I think...

I meant from a performance perspective EV has the potential to improve on ICE - in all aspects of performance. I appreciate there is more to being a 'drivers' car than that and you're quite right that it's not all about performance. My point however, was all about about performance - I just didn't word it very well.

As for the glorified milk float and your question as to what could make an EV a drivers car... Let's look at that electric mini, posted above vs my old 54 plate Cooper S JCW, which I think it's fair to say was the drivers choice of all 'new' mini's. That car had a lot of soul and character - the electric mini is heavier, has no more power and is missing the whine of the super charger, burbling exhaust and snicky gearbox. So in that instance I would choose the old cooper S every time.

But we're debating what a fun EV could be in the near future with higher density batteries. If the electric Mini had double density batteries it could actually weigh less than the cooper S, have more power, smoother power delivery and improved COG and weight distribution. On the road and track these are all very desirable qualities and will make the car dynamically superior and more satisfying, even if it still lacks the soul of the supercharged ICE car. But if I drove that future electric mini for a year and then got back in to the supercharged mini, I think I might miss a lot of what the electric car could do so well. In the end, for me there is a lot of satisfaction from driving a car that, as a machine, does it's job as well as possible with the technology available. I take pleasure in the handling of a car as much as I take pleasure in the sound of a car. If I lose the sound in return for improved handling and power response etc, that's a deal I'm personally happy to accept.

Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 7th February 11:41

[M.F.D]

SWoll said:

As would I. But then imagine a car like the A110 or a Yaris GR with the drivertrain replaced with an EV equivalent that weighed the same. I personally don't believe it would be anywhere near as engaging.

Ruthless efficiency is rarely sexy or fun, no matter how impressive.

Well put. My sentiments exactly.

[Fusion777]

Assuming everyone here discussing pure driver’s cars drives something with no power steering, stability control, traction control or ABS?

[TheDeuce]

Fusion777 said:

Assuming everyone here discussing pure driver’s cars drives something with no power steering, stability control, traction control or ABS?

[M.F.D]

Fusion777 said:

Assuming everyone here discussing pure driver’s cars drives something with no power steering, stability control, traction control or ABS?

Plenty proper drivers cars that have the above.

[TheDeuce]

M.F.D said:

Fusion777 said:

Assuming everyone here discussing pure driver’s cars drives something with no power steering, stability control, traction control or ABS?

Plenty proper drivers cars that have the above.

And plenty proper future drivers cars will be electric - even if they're not to some proper drivers tastes

[M.F.D]

TheDeuce said:

And plenty proper future drivers cars will be electric - even if they're not to some proper drivers tastes

[TheDeuce]

M.F.D said:

TheDeuce said:

And plenty proper future drivers cars will be electric - even if they're not to some proper drivers tastes

What's your problem? You think in ten years time or whatever there will be zero EV's that are described as 'drivers cars'?

You may still not consider them to be such a thing, but that's not to say others won't.

[ZesPak]

M.F.D said:

I'll ask you this, as a petrolhead. What attributes of any EV make it a drivers car? Not a fast car, but a drivers car?

Throttle responsiveness.

[M.F.D]

TheDeuce said:

What's your problem? You think in ten years time or whatever there will be zero EV's that are described as 'drivers cars'?

You may still not consider them to be such a thing, but that's not to say others won't.

My heads sore.

Agree to disagree. I don't accept that EV's will ever be a thing that you take out on a Sunday B-road blast just for pure enjoyment. Look forwards to being proven wrong.

[page3]

M.F.D said:

TheDeuce said:

What's your problem? You think in ten years time or whatever there will be zero EV's that are described as 'drivers cars'?

You may still not consider them to be such a thing, but that's not to say others won't.

My heads sore.

Agree to disagree. I don't accept that EV's will ever be a thing that you take out on a Sunday B-road blast just for pure enjoyment. Look forwards to being proven wrong.

I took my EV out last Sunday for a B-road blast, just for fun. QED.

[ZesPak]

M.F.D said:

My heads sore.

Agree to disagree. I don't accept that EV's will ever be a thing that you take out on a Sunday B-road blast just for pure enjoyment. Look forwards to being proven wrong.

Seems like an odd place to be in tbh. Surely, drivetrain is important but for a lot of cars not defining. I'd say something like an electric Caterham or Elise (if they can keep the weight down) sounds like a ton of fun.

Find it hard to believe that people still think this in 2022...

[gangzoom]

M.F.D said:

My heads sore.

Agree to disagree. I don't accept that EV's will ever be a thing that you take out on a Sunday B-road blast just for pure enjoyment. Look forwards to being proven wrong.

When I still had time to my self on a Sunday the Leaf use to get a little around the local roads. Understeer, torquesteer, crash suspension, but it was just enjoyable.....till you get worried about turtle mode .



The only time now I get to 'enjoy' the car is on family road trips. There is a reason I insist on using the EV on holiday road trips. Driving to France for Easter than Norway later in the summer, cannot wait .

[TheDeuce]

M.F.D said:

TheDeuce said:

What's your problem? You think in ten years time or whatever there will be zero EV's that are described as 'drivers cars'?

You may still not consider them to be such a thing, but that's not to say others won't.

My heads sore.

Agree to disagree. I don't accept that EV's will ever be a thing that you take out on a Sunday B-road blast just for pure enjoyment. Look forwards to being proven wrong.

There's no need to agree to disagree. You're just plain wrong to state as fact that EV's will never be a thing to take out for a Sunday blast for the fun of it. I know beyond doubt that you're wrong about that because I and others I know and in these forums do just that.

For you personally, maybe you'll never feel that way. Fair enough. But then I never suggested you should

[TheDeuce]

ZesPak said:

M.F.D said:

My heads sore.

Agree to disagree. I don't accept that EV's will ever be a thing that you take out on a Sunday B-road blast just for pure enjoyment. Look forwards to being proven wrong.

Seems like an odd place to be in tbh. Surely, drivetrain is important but for a lot of cars not defining. I'd say something like an electric Caterham or Elise (if they can keep the weight down) sounds like a ton of fun.

Find it hard to believe that people still think this in 2022...

It's weird - some car fans seem to think that the car itself dies with the passing of ICE and the EV's that replace them are somehow entirely alien..

I see no reason to believe we won't eventually have the same breadth of car types powered by electric motor as we have with ICE, some of which will be pure fun cars - some of which in ways that ICE couldn't deliver in fact.

Even today are Taycan Turbo S drivers not taking them out 'for fun'?

[M.F.D]

gangzoom said:

When I still had time to my self on a Sunday the Leaf use to get a little around the local roads. Understeer, torquesteer, crash suspension, but it was just enjoyable.....till you get worried about turtle mode .

[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/1698/26477924151_3ec989d570_c_d.jpg[/thumb]

The only time now I get to 'enjoy' the car is on family road trips. There is a reason I insist on using the EV on holiday road trips. Driving to France for Easter than Norway later in the summer, cannot wait .

I'm sorry but taking a Leaf for a blast on a Sunday sounds about as much fun as taking a GoPro to North Korea.

[M.F.D]

TheDeuce said:

There's no need to agree to disagree. You're just plain wrong to state as fact that EV's will never be a thing to take out for a Sunday blast for the fun of it. I know beyond doubt that you're wrong about that because I and others I know and in these forums do just that.

For you personally, maybe you'll never feel that way. Fair enough. But then I never suggested you should

We're going round in circles here. No, I don't think EV's are fun. My opinion, they literally do nothing for me. Fun is subjective, I get that. If you enjoy taking a milk float out for a spirited drive then I'm happy for you.

Do they make EV's that are engaging, dynamic, drivers cars at present? Nope.

Will they ever? I don't believe so, again my opinion and will stand corrected if/when that ever happens.

[jason61c]

M.F.D said:

gangzoom said:

When I still had time to my self on a Sunday the Leaf use to get a little around the local roads. Understeer, torquesteer, crash suspension, but it was just enjoyable.....till you get worried about turtle mode .

[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/1698/26477924151_3ec989d570_c_d.jpg[/thumb]

The only time now I get to 'enjoy' the car is on family road trips. There is a reason I insist on using the EV on holiday road trips. Driving to France for Easter than Norway later in the summer, cannot wait .

I'm sorry but taking a Leaf for a blast on a Sunday sounds about as much fun as taking a GoPro to North Korea.

Erm, taking a GoPro to North Korea would be amazing fun

[M.F.D]

jason61c said:

Erm, taking a GoPro to North Korea would be amazing fun

Give it a bash and let us know how you get on