I'm a dinosaur - educate/change my mind

[Delboy_trotter]

Whether I like it or not ICE is on it's last legs for 'new' vehicles weather I like it or not, that's the agenda of the powers that be

Now nothing makes me turn off the stereo and wind down the window for the sound of a throaty V8 or a modified classic that could wake the devil himself and when it comes to EV's i am the first to admit I'm a dinosaur and I like burning my recycled ones as my power source, but i have to face the reality that the next car I buy as my daily (used rather than new) will likely be my last ICE car - after that the reality is I will be forced into an EV and my toys will be the ICE vehicles, and yes its sad but technology moves on

Do i think EV's are the ultimate solution? Maybe/Maybe not - but they are a stepping stone that isn't going to go away, as a dyed in the wool petrolhead i can make a 100 excuses for not owning an EV right now most of which are probably crud, but its also based on the familiarity - with an ICE car i drive it for 500 miles, it tells me it needs more fuel, i get it and then do another 500 miles and the process takes 10 mins and is quantifiable with a bill at then end and is best likened to that old pair of walking boots that you refuse to chuck out because its comfortable and familiar

EV's however are unfamiliar - instantly you start to think how much the household electric bill is going to go up by - even though you won't be spending £60/70/80 on fuel, the thought of the household electric bill going up by even £10 however is morally outrageous

Now here's the thing - I like a manual, I don't dislike an auto, but I prefer a manual, I like the familiarity of filling up with fuel and understand BHP, ft.lb of torque, and MPG etc but if you look at my daily use case I could go EV, my commute is 15 miles each way, and is around 7500 miles a year, for which and EV would work, however its unfamiliar and the fear of the unknown, how much extra would the leccy bill be, why should if I do a long journey have to stop part way for 30 mins and recharge I'm impatient and don't want to stop which my ICE engine lets me do and I can do the whole round trip and only refuel a week later, instead of constantly charging - and does that make me out of touch and a dinosaur? Probably but i also know that i will have to make the change at some point, but its knowing where that point is that is difficult to work out

Just my 2p and thoughts obviously, but its where my current mindset is - but I'm open to be swayed, like i said my next daily car will whichever way i cut it likely be the last ICE car i buy, which saddens me but also something i can't avoid/need to think about and educate myself

[Zetec-S]

Delboy_trotter said:

Whether I like it or not ICE is on it's last legs for 'new' vehicles weather I like it or not, that's the agenda of the powers that be

Now nothing makes me turn off the stereo and wind down the window for the sound of a throaty V8 or a modified classic that could wake the devil himself and when it comes to EV's i am the first to admit I'm a dinosaur and I like burning my recycled ones as my power source, but i have to face the reality that the next car I buy as my daily (used rather than new) will likely be my last ICE car - after that the reality is I will be forced into an EV and my toys will be the ICE vehicles, and yes its sad but technology moves on

Do i think EV's are the ultimate solution? Maybe/Maybe not - but they are a stepping stone that isn't going to go away, as a dyed in the wool petrolhead i can make a 100 excuses for not owning an EV right now most of which are probably crud, but its also based on the familiarity - with an ICE car i drive it for 500 miles, it tells me it needs more fuel, i get it and then do another 500 miles and the process takes 10 mins and is quantifiable with a bill at then end and is best likened to that old pair of walking boots that you refuse to chuck out because its comfortable and familiar

EV's however are unfamiliar - instantly you start to think how much the household electric bill is going to go up by - even though you won't be spending £60/70/80 on fuel, the thought of the household electric bill going up by even £10 however is morally outrageous

Now here's the thing - I like a manual, I don't dislike an auto, but I prefer a manual, I like the familiarity of filling up with fuel and understand BHP, ft.lb of torque, and MPG etc but if you look at my daily use case I could go EV, my commute is 15 miles each way, and is around 7500 miles a year, for which and EV would work, however its unfamiliar and the fear of the unknown, how much extra would the leccy bill be, why should if I do a long journey have to stop part way for 30 mins and recharge I'm impatient and don't want to stop which my ICE engine lets me do and I can do the whole round trip and only refuel a week later, instead of constantly charging - and does that make me out of touch and a dinosaur? Probably but i also know that i will have to make the change at some point, but its knowing where that point is that is difficult to work out

Just my 2p and thoughts obviously, but its where my current mindset is - but I'm open to be swayed, like i said my next daily car will whichever way i cut it likely be the last ICE car i buy, which saddens me but also something i can't avoid/need to think about and educate myself

Bold bits sum it up for you A lot of enthusiasts will have an EV for daily duties and ICE for fun.

Personally I'm not sold on EV's yet - they sound a bit crap and none really appeal to me. For now I can continue with the Focus ST or Mini JCW which cover daily and fun duties, but I'm sure in a few years we'll have replaced 1 or even both with EV's as the argument in favour will be too hard to ignore.

However, what it will mean is a good excuse to get a properly interesting ICE car (probably with a V8) to keep in the garage, purely for fun, without being too bothered about running costs

[Delboy_trotter]

So im at the point of not being completely sold, but intrigued enough to look into it and begin to understand the ins and outs

Edited by Delboy_trotter on Thursday 3rd March 12:14

[Moonpie21]

I like a petrol car, but you made a key statement: "technology moves on".

To your point is it the solution or a stepping stone no one can answer that but one thing is for certain I doubt you will be able to avoid a BEV at some point in the not too distant future.

For me, I am a convert, for daily use or as a sole family vehicle. There is enough choice now to meet and excel at both of those criteria.

In answer to some of your preferences...

Prefer manual - As an electric car has pretty instant torque (they move straight away) I find I don't miss manual and actually the right time to deploy makes it a fun driving experience, especially with one pedal driving as regenerative braking can have an unsettling impact. It's just a change in style and I have actually enjoyed learning it.

Familiarity of filling with fuel - I come home and plug it in once a week does all my local journeys I actually find it a lot more convenient. Even if I had to do that at a public charging station a cup of coffee and a cake later, done I don't see it as a hassle. The best part is it's constantly getting easier where ever you are. There is a great video on Ubitricity which I suggest you watch as it is quite inspiring. https://vimeo.com/635042247?embedded=true&sour...

Home electricity bills - They will go up if you charge there, no question. At the moment it still costs enticingly less than fossil fuel and as it goes up I am sure fossil fuel will go up similarly. Lets put it this way it is easier to generate electricity than it is to refine and distribute fossil fuel. I have been lucky enough to install solar on my house which means I can generate a portion of my own "fuel" and actually that's been really nice watching it on a sunny day.

Stopping on a long journey - Most modern EV's are doing 200 mile plus ranges these days topping up the night before and leaving is great, but more importantly hand on heart I can't think of many 200 mile plus journeys I've done (actually I did one recently and hired a diesel E class to do that one journey in, which turns out is a hell of a lot cheaper than running a diesel for the 99% of the time I don't need it) and getting to the other end is a fuel stop OK a bit longer but I like my cake so no issues. If it is longer than 200 miles it's just an inconvenience, not really a big one though so something you live with for the odd occasion.

Right point to make a change - Go have a drive of a few EV's, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. The new ones are incredible, still a little bit more expensive than ICE for a direct comparison vehicle, but it's a hell of a lot closer. It then really comes down to funds and if you like the look as for daily and family they are here now and I wouldn't look back.

Just a point of view, but you asked.

[gmaz]

My car history includes Imprezas, Mazda 6MPS turbo, Honda VTis but I now lease an electric Hyundai Kona. For daily driving, they are perfect. I was in a slow moving queue on the motorway, looking around at the other cars idling stationary, with a 30% efficient engine powering water pump, oil pump, radiator fan, alternator, PAS pump, vacuum assisted brakes, AC compressor. Every time they moved and then braked, that energy was lost to heat.

Have you ever tried to compress a valve spring? You know how much force it takes, now imagine 16 x that force just to adequately contain 800 explosions a minute in a small 4 cylinder engine.

ICE engines simply do not make sense any more.

[Maracus]

I've had a Tesla Model 3 SR for 2 years, it arrived days before Lockdown 1.0.

In hindsight I probably wouldn't have chosen one knowing how little I'm using it as I now WFH, was previously in 3 days a week, 80 miles a day. However, I'm so glad I did, it's cheap to run - Company lease, low BIK, electric, etc. I'm on Octopus Go until Dec 22 @ 5p/Kw, which equates to 1.4p a mile. I hardly ever use a public charger, but when I have done it's been a Tesla SuC, so no issues. Our longest trip is to Northumberland, around 265 miles each way, we always stop after 100 miles or 1 1/2 hours any way, so just top up as required. Even the 190 real world range of the SR Tesla is more than adequate for 99% of the time. We're off to Central France in the Summer in it.

My Mrs had a 2010 Cooper S for 8+ years, she has just sold it and bought a MINI Electric. The range is only 110 - 120 (so ~£1.50 to 'fill' it), but her usage is between 16 and 50 a day, so it's perfect. Electric would have to hit 60 - 65p/KW to equal the petrol bill for it at the moment.

So in short, if you can charge at home, do it. It won't ever replace a V8 but it does daily duties perfectly.

To add - plug in every night, no dramas, full range if required.

[Delboy_trotter]

Moonpie21 said:

Just a point of view, but you asked.

And tis why I asked - I'm open to the concept of being enlightened as it were, it's something that's ultimately unavoidable, and it's easy to be drawn one way or another at the moment, but its by asking you find out

Its like I said - I'm comfortable with an ICE engine, understand how it works and the concepts that go with ownership - EV's on the other hand are a world in which beyond it being a car running on electric, running n electric motor which I'm familiar with them, its a different mindset/way of doing it and as the so called 'ban' on the sale of new ICE car's looms ever close, so does the fact that forecourts will be filled with more and more EV's and less ICE, its just the way it will go and before you know it there will be little option, and in every respect outside my on prejudice against an EV for your average person they make sense, its a case of overcoming myself as it were and accepting the way of it rather than fighting it out of naivety and the age old 'that will never work' and indeed the fear of the unknown

Edited by Delboy_trotter on Thursday 3rd March 13:15

[Uncle boshy]

I’ve run a egolf as a company car for the last two years, and done around 8k per year.

It was chosen mainly on the tax benefits and in lock down it’s been the perfect car. It now does 90% of our daily drives.

Costs are £1.50 to fill up overnight on octopus go for 100 to 140 miles depending on type of driving and time of year so around £120 a year if charged at home. I’ve charged on the go 5 times in 2 years.

The good parts;
- cheap as chips to run
- servicing is cheap
- super smooth
- incredibly responsive from low speed
- instantaneous start off - our 3 series with zf8 box feels quite ponderous by comparison
- if you can charge at destination it’s no stress at all
- you can warm and defrost the car remotely on a cold day or cool on a hot day
- better parking at Tesco as the ev spots are bigger

The bad points;
- 100 miles is a bit limiting if you haven’t worked out chargers.
- public charging is hit and miss still, it still feels like early days in the process
- expensive in the first place if it’s not a company perk
- wouldn’t have been my first choice, but we only had that or an i3 when I ordered.


We have the 3 series for the long journeys
- I’d take the golf on my own on a long trip, but would end up divorced if I took the mrs I think.
- uni drop off trip for child #1 is 400 miles each way, not even worth thinking about in the golf, but only happens once a year, so not a major problem.

Personally I’d want 200 miles or so from my next one, that would be enough to make it the main car.

[TheDeuce]

Uncle boshy said:

I’ve run a egolf as a company car for the last two years, and done around 8k per year.

It was chosen mainly on the tax benefits and in lock down it’s been the perfect car. It now does 90% of our daily drives.

Costs are £1.50 to fill up overnight on octopus go for 100 to 140 miles depending on type of driving and time of year so around £120 a year if charged at home. I’ve charged on the go 5 times in 2 years.

The good parts;
- cheap as chips to run
- servicing is cheap
- super smooth
- incredibly responsive from low speed
- instantaneous start off - our 3 series with zf8 box feels quite ponderous by comparison
- if you can charge at destination it’s no stress at all
- you can warm and defrost the car remotely on a cold day or cool on a hot day
- better parking at Tesco as the ev spots are bigger

The bad points;
- 100 miles is a bit limiting if you haven’t worked out chargers.
- public charging is hit and miss still, it still feels like early days in the process
- expensive in the first place if it’s not a company perk
- wouldn’t have been my first choice, but we only had that or an i3 when I ordered.


We have the 3 series for the long journeys
- I’d take the golf on my own on a long trip, but would end up divorced if I took the mrs I think.
- uni drop off trip for child #1 is 400 miles each way, not even worth thinking about in the golf, but only happens once a year, so not a major problem.

Personally I’d want 200 miles or so from my next one, that would be enough to make it the main car.

I agree with all of this. And most of the bad points disappear with better range. A real world 200 mile range is more than enough for the vast majority of drivers - even allowing for the fact that a couple of times a year they might have to use a fast charger en-route. It's still overall way less time/hassle than endless petrol station visits.

[Knock_knock]

In 2015 we got a Leaf as our 2nd car. The combination of grants and discounts made the purchase price about 50% of list, which made it too good to resist. Then factor in the substantially lower running costs and it couldn't have made more sense if it tried!

The range of the Leaf was obviously pretty low, hence why we said "2nd card" but mysteriously once we were used to it the range issue seemed to mainly go away and it increasingly took over primary duties except for the very longest of journeys. A year later we were so convinced that the remaining car was replaced by another EV - a 40kW Zoe!

Leaf did 55,000 miles in 4 years before being replaced with a Kia eNiro (yes, another EV). When sold the battery was at 86/87%.

The Zoe is still here, at 5 years old and 55,000 miles, and the battery is at 91/92%.

There are no "fun" EV's yet as the market is concentrating on hitting the major sectors, but I'm sure they'll come. But as general duty cars an EV is just better than an ICE for almost every circumstance, and requires less adjustment than people fear.

I did 500 miles in a day in January in the eNiro, which is frankly as much as I would ever really "want" to do. My estimate is that the charging overhead extended my day by around 20 minutes, which honestly isn't a drag. With an Kia EV6 even that difference would probably be gone due to the higher charging rates.

[Volvolover]

TheDeuce said:

I agree with all of this. And most of the bad points disappear with better range. A real world 200 mile range is more than enough for the vast majority of drivers - even allowing for the fact that a couple of times a year they might have to use a fast charger en-route. It's still overall way less time/hassle than endless petrol station visits.

I agree better range makes them much more appealing but the speed and availability of chargers would be the clincher for me.

I think your bit in bold is utter nonsense though.

[TheRainMaker]

TheDeuce said:

It's still overall way less time/hassle than endless petrol station visits.

With every upside there is a down side, everyday this week I have had to leave a meeting around lunch time to move the car off a charger which was a 5 min walk each way in the rain

[SWoll]

Volvolover said:

TheDeuce said:

I agree with all of this. And most of the bad points disappear with better range. A real world 200 mile range is more than enough for the vast majority of drivers - even allowing for the fact that a couple of times a year they might have to use a fast charger en-route. It's still overall way less time/hassle than endless petrol station visits.

I agree better range makes them much more appealing but the speed and availability of chargers would be the clincher for me.

I think your bit in bold is utter nonsense though.

Depends on your usage. Takes <30 seconds of a night to plug the car in (like to keep it topped up just in case), and then wake up with a full tank every morning (200-250 miles).

I've certainly found it a lot less hassle overall than what I remember of queuing at the local petrol station.

[NerveAgent]

What you like and what is considered desirable is not as “fixed” as you think. As technology and available products change, most peoples “wants” shifts faster than you can imagine.

[Delboy_trotter]

NerveAgent said:

What you like and what is considered desirable is not as “fixed” as you think. As technology and available products change, most peoples “wants” shifts faster than you can imagine.

Lol - what i really want is a Mk7.5 Golf GTI, 3 door, manual, but right now it doesn't add up as i can afford the car to put it on the driveway, but running it is another matter, but im thinking one step ahead or what if circumstances dictate a different direction

[Volvolover]

SWoll said:

Volvolover said:

TheDeuce said:

I agree with all of this. And most of the bad points disappear with better range. A real world 200 mile range is more than enough for the vast majority of drivers - even allowing for the fact that a couple of times a year they might have to use a fast charger en-route. It's still overall way less time/hassle than endless petrol station visits.

I agree better range makes them much more appealing but the speed and availability of chargers would be the clincher for me.

I think your bit in bold is utter nonsense though.

Depends on your usage. Takes <30 seconds of a night to plug the car in (like to keep it topped up just in case), and then wake up with a full tank every morning (200-250 miles).

I've certainly found it a lot less hassle overall than what I remember of queuing at the local petrol station.

30 Seconds a night for a month is still way less than I spend getting fuel at the moment.
Is getting your lead out and back in really a combined 30 seconds? 15 seconds out and plugged in and 15 seconds to put it back in the boot? Is it convenient when peeing down with rain in your nice work gear?
Do you spend time looking at the electric bill working out what the car cost etc?

Obviously individual circumstances differ but presently for me, spending waaay less than 15 minutes a month topping the car up at the local shell seems a lot less hassle

[Maracus]

SWoll said:

Depends on your usage. Takes <30 seconds of a night to plug the car in (like to keep it topped up just in case), and then wake up with a full tank every morning (200-250 miles).

I've certainly found it a lot less hassle overall than what I remember of queuing at the local petrol station.

100% agreed.

[anonymous-user]

Volvolover said:

30 Seconds a night for a month is still way less than I spend getting fuel at the moment.
Is getting your lead out and back in really a combined 30 seconds? 15 seconds out and plugged in and 15 seconds to put it back in the boot? Is it convenient when peeing down with rain in your nice work gear?
Do you spend time looking at the electric bill working out what the car cost etc?

Obviously individual circumstances differ but presently for me, spending waaay less than 15 minutes a month topping the car up at the local shell seems a lot less hassle

I'm not always convinced by the argument that charging is less hassle than getting petrol either. I will be charging from a three pin socket in the shed, at least twice a week which will involve unravelling the extension lead, getting the regular cable out of the boot and plugging it all in, in any weather, then coiling up wet cables several hours later. Yes I know it's great to always have your car fully 'fuelled' car from home, and I don't need to worry about panic buying, but going to a petrol station once a week or so really isn't a great hardship. Plus I'll miss buying a KitKat Chunky every time I'm there.

[SWoll]

Volvolover said:

SWoll said:

Volvolover said:

TheDeuce said:

I agree with all of this. And most of the bad points disappear with better range. A real world 200 mile range is more than enough for the vast majority of drivers - even allowing for the fact that a couple of times a year they might have to use a fast charger en-route. It's still overall way less time/hassle than endless petrol station visits.

I agree better range makes them much more appealing but the speed and availability of chargers would be the clincher for me.

I think your bit in bold is utter nonsense though.

Depends on your usage. Takes <30 seconds of a night to plug the car in (like to keep it topped up just in case), and then wake up with a full tank every morning (200-250 miles).

I've certainly found it a lot less hassle overall than what I remember of queuing at the local petrol station.

30 Seconds a night for a month is still way less than I spend getting fuel at the moment.
Is getting your lead out and back in really a combined 30 seconds? 15 seconds out and plugged in and 15 seconds to put it back in the boot? Is it convenient when peeing down with rain in your nice work gear?
Do you spend time looking at the electric bill working out what the car cost etc?

Obviously individual circumstances differ but presently for me, spending waaay less than 15 minutes a month topping the car up at the local shell seems a lot less hassle

That's to keep it topped up for 250 miles per day, every day. We could charge once per week to cover 1000 miles per month, so 2 minutes in total . As the car and charger are 2 steps from my back door and the cable is always at hand 30 seconds is probably overselling it TBH, just done a quick test and it was closer to 15 in reality. No worries about weather and work gear, doesn't get plugged in until we're off to bed and I'm locking up for the night so normally in my PJ's at that point.

The thing that always amuses me with these discussions is that the EV owners will have run both ICE and EV and are able to comment based on actual real life experience yet still get challenged by people who haven't.

No need to look at the leccy bill either BTW, I know it costs a significantly less than petrol (even with the price hike) so why worry about the details. Our current 400bhp SUV EV costs about 6p per mile in 'fuel', or the equivalent of 110MPG at current petrol prices.

doesthiswork said:

I'm not always convinced by the argument that charging is less hassle than getting petrol either. I will be charging from a three pin socket in the shed, at least twice a week which will involve unravelling the extension lead, getting the regular cable out of the boot and plugging it all in, in any weather, then coiling up wet cables several hours later. Yes I know it's great to always have your car fully 'fuelled' car from home, and I don't need to worry about panic buying, but going to a petrol station once a week or so really isn't a great hardship. Plus I'll miss buying a KitKat Chunky every time I'm there.

Depends on your setup obviously, can only speak from personal experience. Queues for pumps waiting for someone to do a shop, broken pay at pump machines, queues in the kiosk I seem to remember were a fairly common occurrence.

And as much as you might miss a KK chunky, I can assure you your waistline won't.

Edited by SWoll on Thursday 3rd March 15:03

[off_again]

EV’s work if you fit the use case. If you dont fit the use case, they dont work. Pretty simple. I cant tell you that you just have to suck it up and deal with it, well not until 2035 or something. But if you can charge at home and your typical journey distances fit into the range of the EV you are thinking about, it might be a good fit. But, as has been mentioned here before, if you need to do 600 miles a day without stopping, an EV isnt going to work - and yes, I am joking.

Not having to stop to get fuel is nice, but equally you dont (and shouldn’t really) charge each and every time you are at home. It is true that most EV charging is done at home for the average owner, but you top up when you need to, not each day. All it takes is a little pre-planning if the range isnt great (sub 200 miles), and maybe a top up every other day or so is usually all that you need. We have an i3 and the range is around 115 miles on EV. For our usage, that means a full charge every week and maybe a top-up once every 3 days. It just gets used for short run around trips and maybe an occasional longer run once a week (60 miles both ways). Would a conventional car work for me? Probably, but the convenience factor is high for an EV.

As you can see, our use case fits extremely well for an EV. It’s very cheap to run, efficient in its usage (no need to wait for the engine to warm up) and the convenience of being able to pre-warm or pre-cool is really nice. But I would say that we also have a Macan in the household too, so we have a more practical car too.

On the reverse of this, my neighbor does around 500+ miles a week and is all over the place, frequently not even knowing where he is going from day to day. Would an EV work for him? Probably not and charging and access to charging will become a problem. The convenience of being able to just stop and fill up outweighs the EV factor. The use case for EV’s just doesnt work for him and thats fine.

EV’s can work and are getting better all the time. But they are still pretty narrow in their use cases currently. If you can compromise on a couple of things, maybe it will fit. If you wont compromise (and much of this is around the driving involvement factors), then thats OK too. ICE is here for a long time yet and isnt going to disappear in the way that some EV evangelists are saying. But if an EV works for you, there is more choice than ever before and that is only going to get better over the coming months and years. I for one am not going to judge anyone either way they make a decision. It’s still very personal to situation and circumstance.

One final comment - my local electric company has just forced everyone onto a Time Of Use tariff which sucks. Suddenly that convenience factor is slightly less as I really should try to avoid charging between 4-8pm. It just makes things a little more difficult, so do factor that into any decision. Would this make me switch back? Not at the moment, as we have a the range extender i3 - so weirdly, in an effort to reduce electricity usage during peak times, its actually increasing the possibility that I will burn fuel!