Will you go back to ICE?

[bigothunter]

TheDeuce said:

Endless people pop up in these forums to explain why EV is hopeless for them. I was in that camp for a while..

But how many that have gone to the dark side would come back? I'm guessing the majority would not. As I type this I see diesel is nearly £1.80 in some areas!

Discuss your experience living with EV, with or without a second ICE car.

ICEVs are dying in front of us. There is no way back from BEVs...

[TheDeuce]

ZesPak said:

TheDeuce said:

I sometimes wonder if the world governments are actually all that focussed on making sure electric works for everyone. I'm not convinced they want 'everyone' using personal transport for that much longer...

There's two sides to that coin.
In most of our countries, you're basically handicapped if you don't have a car. Alternatives are often impractical and insufficient.
Removing the need for people to have a car alleviates a big burden on lower income families.

The issue of course you're describing is that they are possibly making the car a bigger burden on more people, without providing sufficient alternatives.

In any case, that topic is completely separate from the EV topic. New cars are expensive. EV's are as good as at price parity, even without government incentives.

Price parity I agree with. It's those that rely wholly on public charging that I'm thinking about. Which I think it's fair to say is a situation a lot of lower income households will be in - and also fair to say that mostly those sort of high density housing areas are fairly well served by public transport.

For the sake of following evolving technology and trying to make an environmental impact, is it OK to shift the goalposts a little in terms of who can practically own a car?

[ZesPak]

TheDeuce said:

For the sake of following evolving technology and trying to make an environmental impact, is it OK to shift the goalposts a little in terms of who can practically own a car?

Has it ever been different?
Poorer people relegated to old stboxes that cost more to maintain, more to fill up and often more to tax?
I know people who pay for the privilege of driving in London, but I know more people who couldn't afford it.

[TheDeuce]

ZesPak said:

TheDeuce said:

For the sake of following evolving technology and trying to make an environmental impact, is it OK to shift the goalposts a little in terms of who can practically own a car?

Has it ever been different?
Poorer people relegated to old stboxes that cost more to maintain, more to fill up and often more to tax?
I know people who pay for the privilege of driving in London, but I know more people who couldn't afford it.

You're right. This just has the potential to shift that further because of the inconvenience of not being able to charge at home.

[off_again]

Fastdruid said:

The issue for me and I suspect many others is not the "single trip" range but rather the return range... *WITHOUT* a charge.

Take today for example, I did 300 miles, no charger at the destination. There and back on half a tank.

I guess that an EV doesnt work for you - and thats fine. I am absolutely saying that you MUST have an EV, the use case doesnt work for you and thats cool. Its disappointing that you cant take advantage of the cost savings (excluding purchase price of course, man-math at work obviously), but hey, lots of other choices and options - fast diesel, fast petrol, slow efficient petrol, PHEV.... lots of interesting options.

And yes, there are plenty of scenarios that an EV doesnt work. Everything is a compromise somewhere and I get that. I do get annoyed when EV bigots go on rants about everyone has to shift to electric though. Dropping 40k on an EV is going to save the planet of course. My point though is around the use case. You could make an EV work, but if it doesnt based on your requirements, thats OK. Things will change. Pocket the cash and keep an eye out for what changes in the next couple of years. Maybe the charger network will expand sufficiently? Or maybe this whole EV thing will crash and burn around our eyes? Maybe it will just be a rich persons game? Who knows - we can guess, but there are still a lot of challenges and changes that need to be made.

Fastdruid said:

I have zero desire to spend hours hanging around a service station waiting for a charge and unless I bought an older Tesla with unlimited supercharging as it would be business use I'd be subsidising the company as well (the rate is a miserly 5ppm for EV, that doesn't buy many kWh!)

I guess the financial side doesnt make sense and thats OK. I am disappointed that the PPM rate is so bad. Here in the US, the standard IRS rates are the same regardless of which vehicle - 50 something cents per mile. It makes a difference, but of course its really focused on including depreciation, initial costs etc - and ultimately to promote the purchase of newer cars - but thats the IRS claim rate, rather than what your company offers.

But, just to put a nail in the point about spending hours waiting - thats not true. As others have illustrated, you DONT charge to full unless you absolutely need it. You charge to what you need and move on. Could be 10 mins, could be 20 mins - and if that is too long, thats OK too. But dont think for a minute that you need to stop for an hour plus just to get some juice.

Fastdruid said:

I do enough similar trips (in the 140-160Mi range without a charger at the end) that would be *easily* handled one way by many EV's but few that can handle the return as well. None of the ones I can afford, particularly as I'm not making any BIK savings (I have a car allowance) and my personal mileage isn't enough to make significant savings even if electricity was free!

I really would like one for short local stuff but even at sub 20mpg I'm not doing enough miles to make enough savings to pay for a small one as an "extra" car.

Thats what we use the i3 for - short local trips. We have the Rex version, so in reality we can get around 170 miles consistently on both battery and tank. Done the trip to the Bay a couple of times, which is a 220 mile round trip and it was absolutely fine. Get down there, grab a quick charge if we can. If not, there is a large bank of chargers in Tracy on the way back. 20 min charge and we get home with 15% left. Last time, my daughter picked me up and we stopped at the Outlets at Livermore. We were there for 30 mins and got 65% charge before we left. All good. Thats the occasional rare trip though - for the majority of its mileage, its just around the local area and maybe up to 90 miles a day - all perfectly easy.

Saves us a big chunk of money in fuel. Its easy to manage and currently yearly servicing is cheap as chips. Works for us and it fits our use case perfectly (well maybe not quite perfectly, but you get what I mean). But equally I understand that doesnt fit everyone's requirements and thats OK. I am lucky and I understand that; I am in a position to take advantage of an EV. But I also know that a lot of other people arent, and thats why I am realistic and honest. I am never going to tell someone what to do - but if I can be honest, they can make their own mind up and be confident in the decision that they made.

[DMZ]

Hasn't Putin killed ICE? At least appliance ICE. Once people lose trust in fuel supply/price that's pretty much that I would have thought.

[bigothunter]

DMZ said:

Hasn't Putin killed ICE? At least appliance ICE. Once people lose trust in fuel supply/price that's pretty much that I would have thought.

Punitive Putin?

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Dunno, but this woman in the petrol station the other day was obviously confused

(I live in a city full of 'the entitled' and she decided it was fine to block a pump and go off shopping with her offspring. I was waiting nearly fifteen minutes in a busy petrol station...I know, I know, first world problems and all that...)

[Evanivitch]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Dunno, but this woman in the petrol station the other day was obviously confused

(I live in a city full of 'the entitled' and she decided it was fine to block a pump and go off shopping with her offspring. I was waiting nearly fifteen minutes in a busy petrol station...I know, I know, first world problems and all that...)

Strange you didn't block the reg in the reflection or in the post on FB...

[TheDeuce]

bigothunter said:

DMZ said:

Hasn't Putin killed ICE? At least appliance ICE. Once people lose trust in fuel supply/price that's pretty much that I would have thought.

Punitive Putin?

In fairness electricity is and will continue to rise for the same reason. But it's going to have to make up some serious ground to catch up with fuel. We could be looking at £2.50 a litre by the end of this month, perhaps more.

It's temporary they say... But I think it's going to last long enough to do some damage to ICE car sales - it'll certainly swing a lot if the people that are looking at buying a new car and in the fence ICE/EV

[off_again]

TheDeuce said:

It's temporary they say... But I think it's going to last long enough to do some damage to ICE car sales - it'll certainly swing a lot if the people that are looking at buying a new car and in the fence ICE/EV

What concerns me is the speed at which the prices go up but the delay that it takes for them to come down again. Surely there is a physical delay in the receipt, processing and delivery of the fuel? Call me a cynic, but it does seem that wholesale prices going up yesterday shouldnt mean a direct impact at the pumps today.....

Equally, if that wholesale price drops tomorrow, surely the price drops the day after? That's right isnt it?

[TheDeuce]

off_again said:

TheDeuce said:

It's temporary they say... But I think it's going to last long enough to do some damage to ICE car sales - it'll certainly swing a lot if the people that are looking at buying a new car and in the fence ICE/EV

What concerns me is the speed at which the prices go up but the delay that it takes for them to come down again. Surely there is a physical delay in the receipt, processing and delivery of the fuel? Call me a cynic, but it does seem that wholesale prices going up yesterday shouldnt mean a direct impact at the pumps today.....

Equally, if that wholesale price drops tomorrow, surely the price drops the day after? That's right isnt it?

After a 28 day admin period it will be recommended for review. If the review is successful the suggestion of a downward price shift will be put toward consideration within then next 28 days. The outcome of that review will be reported within 28 days

[delta0]

off_again said:

What concerns me is the speed at which the prices go up but the delay that it takes for them to come down again. Surely there is a physical delay in the receipt, processing and delivery of the fuel? Call me a cynic, but it does seem that wholesale prices going up yesterday shouldnt mean a direct impact at the pumps today.....

Equally, if that wholesale price drops tomorrow, surely the price drops the day after? That's right isnt it?

The prices started jumping up about 3 weeks ago. What could be more concerning is the recent jumps aren’t even in the price yet and could go much higher.

[TheDeuce]

delta0 said:

off_again said:

What concerns me is the speed at which the prices go up but the delay that it takes for them to come down again. Surely there is a physical delay in the receipt, processing and delivery of the fuel? Call me a cynic, but it does seem that wholesale prices going up yesterday shouldnt mean a direct impact at the pumps today.....

Equally, if that wholesale price drops tomorrow, surely the price drops the day after? That's right isnt it?

The prices started jumping up about 3 weeks ago. What could be more concerning is the recent jumps aren’t even in the price yet and could go much higher.

Ignoring my earlier joke response.. yup, the reality is we have a delay here and honestly I doubt anyone in the world can accurately plot the outcome of the Russian energy ban on any fuel prices. We could see £3+ per litre at the forecourts quite easily. We could also see measures bought in to prevent such debilitating price hikes such as the government limiting tax to balance this out and keep industry going.

For anyone looking to fill up their tank in the next several weeks, you might as roll a dice trying to guess how much it will hurt.

All we know for certain is that whatever you have that requires energy to operate, it's going to go up to some degree so long as Russia is isolated in global terms. Unless what you have is powered by plutonium, and the Russians are kind enough to drop some off nearby...

[delta0]

TheDeuce said:

Ignoring my earlier joke response.. yup, the reality is we have a delay here and honestly I doubt anyone in the world can accurately plot the outcome of the Russian energy ban on any fuel prices. We could see £3+ per litre at the forecourts quite easily. We could also see measures bought in to prevent such debilitating price hikes such as the government limiting tax to balance this out and keep industry going.

For anyone looking to fill up their tank in the next several weeks, you might as roll a dice trying to guess how much it will hurt.

All we know for certain is that whatever you have that requires energy to operate, it's going to go up to some degree so long as Russia is isolated in global terms. Unless what you have is powered by plutonium, and the Russians are kind enough to drop some off nearby...

Considering the UK has the largest stockpile of ready to use plutonium in the world we shouldn’t have to rely on Russia for that.

[off_again]

delta0 said:

Considering the UK has the largest stockpile of ready to use plutonium in the world we shouldn’t have to rely on Russia for that.

And I never really understood the strategy for many western nations to reduce or decommission the use of nuclear power. Yeah, its particularly dangerous if not handled carefully, but its also an excellent source of power when implemented correctly. Absolutely we need to shift to renewables - why they hell not make use of it! But in the meantime, nuclear power is viable and other than the upfront costs, provides an excellent level of independence from the variable wholesale energy prices.

Missed opportunity in my book.

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Evanivitch said:

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Dunno, but this woman in the petrol station the other day was obviously confused

(I live in a city full of 'the entitled' and she decided it was fine to block a pump and go off shopping with her offspring. I was waiting nearly fifteen minutes in a busy petrol station...I know, I know, first world problems and all that...)

Strange you didn't block the reg in the reflection or in the post on FB...

Nice work there, Sherlock!

[Toaster Pilot]

[limpsfield]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Evanivitch said:

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Dunno, but this woman in the petrol station the other day was obviously confused

(I live in a city full of 'the entitled' and she decided it was fine to block a pump and go off shopping with her offspring. I was waiting nearly fifteen minutes in a busy petrol station...I know, I know, first world problems and all that...)

Strange you didn't block the reg in the reflection or in the post on FB...

Nice work there, Sherlock!

Oh Ray. I think "pwned", as the kids would say

[NDA]

Max_Torque said:

One question for people in the uk doing "long" distance drives:

How much time are you allowing for traffic?

Waze is usually pretty accurate, so I rely on that for timing.

The heavier the traffic, the longer the range - mine only sips a few volts in London, heavy traffic/traffic under 40mph is the sweet spot for EV's.