Best EV Car with low depreciation - recommendations?
Discussion
granada203028 said:
NDA said:
Is that the 'only thing we know'?
The batteries should be good for 1,000 cycles (full to empty), Tesla claim 1,500 cycles. At 1,000 cycles the batteries will outlast most petrol engines.
My 101K Leaf has deep cycled it's battery approx. 1700 times and still has approx. 66% of its original capacity. Trouble is it was never that much to sart with.The batteries should be good for 1,000 cycles (full to empty), Tesla claim 1,500 cycles. At 1,000 cycles the batteries will outlast most petrol engines.
A Tesla would need to cover 300K or more to achieve 1500 cycles. Again probably down to 2/3 original capacity or something.
Once cells are down to 66% of the original capacity, rot is seriously setting in, it's unlikely that you'll get another 50k miles before the battery has lost a lot more capacity.
300k miles from a Tesla has been done. But there are knackered Tesla batteries about!
With batteries, the wear on the cells depends on many things, including the discharge rate, charge rate, depth of discharge, how long it's stored at various states of charge etc etc. You might get many more cycles if you're only using a small % of the capacity each time.
Time also does damage. Try getting a 25 year guarantee on a battery!
I know people who fling electronics into space, satellites. To get the life they need, they use batteries which start off huge, so the thing still has some function when the battery is only 10% of new.
15 year old EVs will still need to be cheap, just like 15 year old diesels.
So, it seems to me, an EV like a Tesla will need to be dirt cheap at 200k miles and 15 years, a Leaf type will be cheap at 15 years and 100k miles.
Just like Mercs and Fiestas really.
Also new variants of cells are constantly being developed, processes improve, so every year, batteries tend to get a bit better. And/or cheaper to make to the same quality. So what you buy today tends to cost less in real terms in future.
A lot of data is being gathered from Hybrids, because they have small batteries which get cycled heavily, but with parameters controlled by the car more than the owner. Things have moved on a lot from the old Pious, but there's probably still work to be done.
If you look at the link in the recent thread about very fast charging, you find:
https://uscar.org/usabc/
Look at the design goals for a high performance battery:
Calendar life : 10 years
Cycle Life 1000 full cycles.
OutInTheShed said:
So, it seems to me, an EV like a Tesla will need to be dirt cheap at 200k miles and 15 years, a Leaf type will be cheap at 15 years and 100k miles.
Just like Mercs and Fiestas really.
Yep. My Range Rover is 15 years old with 150,000 on the dials. I bought it new for £90k and it's now worth 5k. Nothing wrong with it other than age.Just like Mercs and Fiestas really.
If I get 200k from my Tesla it will have saved me a massive amount on petrol (over £100k easily) and a large amount (£20k +) on road tax and servicing. Disposable in that sense really.
The rub will come when road pricing or similar is introduced.
OutInTheShed said:
The EV market is growing fast and changing all the time.
It's dangerous to predict values in the future.
The only thing we know is that the battery won't last forever, and when the battery is dead, the car won't be worth much, unless it's worth putting a new battery in. But that's not really happening much yet.
The rest of the car will be dead well before then. Most EVs have batteries that outlast the average scrap mileage (106k) of an ICE several times over. It's dangerous to predict values in the future.
The only thing we know is that the battery won't last forever, and when the battery is dead, the car won't be worth much, unless it's worth putting a new battery in. But that's not really happening much yet.
delta0 said:
The rest of the car will be dead well before then. Most EVs have batteries that outlast the average scrap mileage (106k) of an ICE several times over.
It's interesting that the average scrap mileage is so low.I suppose it's a bit daft to lump all IC cars together, many cars being scrapped now were designed and even built last century.
IC cars cover a spectrum from sub-1000cc urban mini types, up through rep-mobiles and beyond.
I'm used to looking at what I consider to be sensible, mid range cars, i.e. 2 litre estates. But actually that's fairly up-scale, because there are trillions of small hatchbacks etc out there. I guess the cars scrapped below 100k miles are typically 15+ years old?
I've seen a lot of 150k mile cars which are quite tidy.
People ask strong money for 100k cars which are remotely 'aspirational'. But they've dropped to some fraction of their new value for sure.
With an EV, what will wear out before the battery?
The upholstery and carpet will show their age, some body electrics might be dodgy, and the software will have updated itself to the point where it no longer works? A lot of this strife is not EV vs IC, it's more like 2010 onwards cars being designed for the 'circular economy', nice while it lasts, recycle at 12 years old. Our experiences of buying cars 15-20 years ago and them running to 200k miles may just be quaint history.
NDA said:
If I get 200k from my Tesla it will have saved me a massive amount on petrol (over £100k easily) and a large amount (£20k +) on road tax and servicing. Disposable in that sense really.
The rub will come when road pricing or similar is introduced.
I pesume you have 'free for life' everything grandfathered into your Tesla. The government rarely had introduced new pricing policy to effect pre registrated cars, isn't it ture some old cars don't need MOTs?The rub will come when road pricing or similar is introduced.
Tesla is now offering the 'new' 90kWh battery pack for older S/Xs more consistently in the US, I suspect they are finally running out of remanufactured pack, though there is an suggestion that the 'new' 90kWh pack actually sometimes uses older recycled cells.....no doubt Elon is alteady lining up lawyers on this individual who made the suggestion. Regardless this 'new' pack actually does have 90kWh usable, so effectively will give any old S/X almost the same range as a new S/X, the charging curve is also surprisingly flat at 150KW till near 50%.
So essentially, with 'free' fuel for life/connectivity, potential to be exempt from future EV taxes, and official manufacture support on new battery if needed, I cannot see us selling our X ever, especially as a new S/X costs so much more than a few years ago.
You only feel the pain of depreciation when you sell, so keeping a car for 'life' surely is the best way to beat depreciation of any kind.
gangzoom said:
I pesume you have 'free for life' everything grandfathered into your Tesla. The government rarely had introduced new pricing policy to effect pre registrated cars, isn't it ture some old cars don't need MOTs?
Tesla is now offering the 'new' 90kWh battery pack for older S/Xs more consistently in the US, I suspect they are finally running out of remanufactured pack, though there is an suggestion that the 'new' 90kWh pack actually sometimes uses older recycled cells.....no doubt Elon is alteady lining up lawyers on this individual who made the suggestion. Regardless this 'new' pack actually does have 90kWh usable, so effectively will give any old S/X almost the same range as a new S/X, the charging curve is also surprisingly flat at 150KW till near 50%.
So essentially, with 'free' fuel for life/connectivity, potential to be exempt from future EV taxes, and official manufacture support on new battery if needed, I cannot see us selling our X ever, especially as a new S/X costs so much more than a few years ago.
You only feel the pain of depreciation when you sell, so keeping a car for 'life' surely is the best way to beat depreciation of any kind.
That's interesting, how much is a new battery in the US?Tesla is now offering the 'new' 90kWh battery pack for older S/Xs more consistently in the US, I suspect they are finally running out of remanufactured pack, though there is an suggestion that the 'new' 90kWh pack actually sometimes uses older recycled cells.....no doubt Elon is alteady lining up lawyers on this individual who made the suggestion. Regardless this 'new' pack actually does have 90kWh usable, so effectively will give any old S/X almost the same range as a new S/X, the charging curve is also surprisingly flat at 150KW till near 50%.
So essentially, with 'free' fuel for life/connectivity, potential to be exempt from future EV taxes, and official manufacture support on new battery if needed, I cannot see us selling our X ever, especially as a new S/X costs so much more than a few years ago.
You only feel the pain of depreciation when you sell, so keeping a car for 'life' surely is the best way to beat depreciation of any kind.
I've seen figures like $8k for a Leaf battery swap/upgrade.
Trouble is, thus far, the market is still small.
Also looking at my 180k mile shed, most of the things which make it a shed are independent of whether it's IC or BEV.
It's battle-scarred, the interior is getting a bit sordid, some minor electrics don't work, suspension is showing some wear, wheels could do with a refurb, seats are probably not so comfy, some creaks and rattles have increased.
Generally new cars will always be nicer and more valuable than comparable old cars.
So eventually, we might get to the point where the lowest depreciation might be mostly just about pricing in a new battery after say 150k miles, but the car as a whole will still be junk eventually.
NDA said:
Mikebentley said:
A question from someone who doesn’t know.
On an EV is there something in the menu that lets you see battery capacity reduction and the amount of times it has been fully charged?
As above - no.On an EV is there something in the menu that lets you see battery capacity reduction and the amount of times it has been fully charged?
It would be a very useful facility for both owners and second hand buyers. I don't know if EV's have OBD ports and if that might have the function.
I've had an i3 Rex and an i3S.
I had a 100 mile daily commute in the i3 Rex so battery fully discharged every day so approx 600 0-100% over the two years I owned it.
I didn't see a reduction in range during that time but didn't bother checking the battery capacity.
Traded it in for the i3S and the battery condition was never a topic of conversation.
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