98% charge in under ten minutes

[anonymous-user]

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/06/13/electric-ve...

If this ever becomes a real product in a normal looking car, and one that doesn’t require a charger so pokey that it’s a unicorn, it’s quite a game changer.

Also with that recharging speed the need for large numbers of recharging stations falls away.

[Panamax]

That rate of charge would need,

• Massive current, or
• Massive voltage, or
• A combination of the two,

none of which is easy to achieve.

It's like having a petrol tank that can be filled in 5 seconds but needs the filler neck to be a foot wide and filled from a railway water tower.

[98elise]

Panamax said:

That rate of charge would need,

• Massive current, or
• Massive voltage, or
• A combination of the two,

none of which is easy to achieve.

It's like having a petrol tank that can be filled in 5 seconds but needs the filler neck to be a foot wide and filled from a railway water tower.

Massive voltage isn't easy to achieve? I would say it's very easy to achieve.

[Tyre Smoke]

Not safely for your average yummy mummy to use.

98000 volts, Karen would definitely be wanting to speak to the manager about that when little Tyler in the back is fried.

[TheDeuce]

Panamax said:

That rate of charge would need,

• Massive current, or
• Massive voltage, or
• A combination of the two,

none of which is easy to achieve.

It's like having a petrol tank that can be filled in 5 seconds but needs the filler neck to be a foot wide and filled from a railway water tower.

Exactly. And when we finally get solid state cells, you can charge them as fast as you possibly can, there's little theoretical limit.

But the grid simply doesn't make such power available en mass unless we're going to have chargers that are essentially self contained sub stations... and the charger plug would need 50mm diameter pins and along with the cable be impossible to lift

10 minutes to charge from 20-80% might be realistic with a very hefty but just about manageable charger, supply, lead and plug. That's quick enough surely, given that solid state cells could give a 600mile range to start with, and the fact that most drivers charge at home anyway and couldn't give a toss about speed because they're sipping wine or sleeping while it happens.

The truth is, the obsession with charging times and even range itself is largely driven by the motoring press and is of little consequence to most of us.

[OutInTheShed]

Panamax said:

That rate of charge would need,

• Massive current, or
• Massive voltage, or
• A combination of the two,

none of which is easy to achieve.

It's like having a petrol tank that can be filled in 5 seconds but needs the filler neck to be a foot wide and filled from a railway water tower.

Nope, it's just a very small tank.
The article is about a 0.27Ah cell.

There would be 'certain practicalities' with charging a useful number of such cells at such speed simultaneously.

If you built a 400V 100kWh battery pack from such cells, to charge it in 10 minutes would be 600kW and 1500A.
Fat cable needed!
If anything is not 100% efficient losing the waste heat is not easy.

It's an interesting little bit of progress though.
Might be very relevant to hybrids too.

[Diderot]

TheDeuce said:

Panamax said:

That rate of charge would need,

• Massive current, or
• Massive voltage, or
• A combination of the two,

none of which is easy to achieve.

It's like having a petrol tank that can be filled in 5 seconds but needs the filler neck to be a foot wide and filled from a railway water tower.

The truth is, the obsession with charging times and even range itself is largely driven by the motoring press and is of little consequence to most of us.

Ain’t that the truth for many of us. Almost 1 year in and we charge every other week to 80 % if needs be.

[paradigital]

Diderot said:

Ain’t that the truth for many of us. Almost 1 year in and we charge every other week to 80 % if needs be.

Sounds about right. I’m charging my Model 3 overnight roughly once a fortnight.

Fast charging for most people is going to be an occasional thing, not a way of life. If the authors of said articles actually drove EVs daily rather than for a one-off review they’d be reporting things as they are, rather than perpetually comparing the charging with refuelling an ICE. They aren’t the same thing at all.

[anonymous-user]

paradigital said:

Diderot said:

Ain’t that the truth for many of us. Almost 1 year in and we charge every other week to 80 % if needs be.

Sounds about right. I’m charging my Model 3 overnight roughly once a fortnight.

Fast charging for most people is going to be an occasional thing, not a way of life. If the authors of said articles actually drove EVs daily rather than for a one-off review they’d be reporting things as they are, rather than perpetually comparing the charging with refuelling an ICE. They aren’t the same thing at all.

Yup, I rapid charged the car recently from 40-80% in 30 mins (this is 34kWh of energy). Time at services goes very quickly indeed. Walked from chargers to the toilets, ordered KFC, and rushed to eat it because I didn’t need to charge it that much!

The irony is, if we’d needed fuel for an ICE car at this point, the total time at the services would have been longer!

It is so convenient charging it at work, home, at friends/family’s houses.

Edited by F20CN16 on Tuesday 14th June 21:14

[Glasgowrob]

its the overall costs that are killer especially just now.


we have 5 EVS on our taxi fleet. i'll take one of our MGs as an example

MG5 Estate bought new for £23,500 expected lifespan is 7 years car is currently 4 months old and has covered 12;500 miles Currently all Glasgows chargers are on free vend so this has been run for absolutely nothing for the past 4 months.

if that was a diesel averaging 45 mpg over the same period it would have used 275 gallons of fuel in the same time frame at a cost of £2300 if it keeps going at this rate its going to save the driver £6000 a year in fuel costs obviously free charging isnt going to be around forever but still the car will pay for itself over the useable lifespan full charge gets 220 miles with the AC on full, its not had a winter yet but 'd expect 180 miles or so. the taxi trade is eating these up as a great introductory EV if faster charging comes mainstream its a no brainer to switch from ICE for us as an industry as its the only (albeit limited) drawback just now alongside the range which is improving with every new ev that appears

[TheDeuce]

Glasgowrob said:

its the overall costs that are killer especially just now.


we have 5 EVS on our taxi fleet. i'll take one of our MGs as an example

MG5 Estate bought new for £23,500 expected lifespan is 7 years car is currently 4 months old and has covered 12;500 miles Currently all Glasgows chargers are on free vend so this has been run for absolutely nothing for the past 4 months.

if that was a diesel averaging 45 mpg over the same period it would have used 275 gallons of fuel in the same time frame at a cost of £2300 if it keeps going at this rate its going to save the driver £6000 a year in fuel costs obviously free charging isnt going to be around forever but still the car will pay for itself over the useable lifespan full charge gets 220 miles with the AC on full, its not had a winter yet but 'd expect 180 miles or so. the taxi trade is eating these up as a great introductory EV if faster charging comes mainstream its a no brainer to switch from ICE for us as an industry as its the only (albeit limited) drawback just now alongside the range which is improving with every new ev that appears

It says something that you're running a fleet of them doing taxi mileage and still not complaining about charge times.

The hesitant non-EV crowd and motoring press need to get a grip!

It takes a certain level of insanity/stubbornness for people to worry about how long it takes to 'fill up' in a car that has the ability to start each and every day with a full 'tank'.

And now of course, a liar will join this thread claiming they need to tow a caravan 400 miles twice a week and that it's up a mountain the entire way - so they need a proper car.

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

It says something that you're running a fleet of them doing taxi mileage and still not complaining about charge times.

The hesitant non-EV crowd and motoring press need to get a grip!

It takes a certain level of insanity/stubbornness for people to worry about how long it takes to 'fill up' in a car that has the ability to start each and every day with a full 'tank'.

And now of course, a liar will join this thread claiming they need to tow a caravan 400 miles twice a week and that it's up a mountain the entire way - so they need a proper car.

Not really. I’ve long thought that EVs are perfect for cities, but the problem is that city housing stock generally doesn’t have off street parking, or one street charger per house, so EVs are less perfect for city houses and flats.

But occasionally one needs to do a longer journey with a fair bit of luggage. For example, one university run we have is 220miles each way and the other is 300 miles each way. The car (L322 RR) gets packed to the gunnels with the rear seats down. I tend not to take stops during those journeys, and do the round trip in a day if I can. Both destinations are in the NE where (from my limited googling) it doesn’t seem that fast chargers are as plentiful as they are in the SE. So for that specific use case - which admittedly for me will be over soon, but is hardly unique - I don’t see that an EV offers a viable alternative, much less one at a reasonable price.

But an EV that had a real world 350 mile range and could recharge fully in 30-60 mins, and for which a charger existed at my destination, great - where do I sign?

[TheDeuce]

BlackWidow13 said:

TheDeuce said:

It says something that you're running a fleet of them doing taxi mileage and still not complaining about charge times.

The hesitant non-EV crowd and motoring press need to get a grip!

It takes a certain level of insanity/stubbornness for people to worry about how long it takes to 'fill up' in a car that has the ability to start each and every day with a full 'tank'.

And now of course, a liar will join this thread claiming they need to tow a caravan 400 miles twice a week and that it's up a mountain the entire way - so they need a proper car.

Not really. I’ve long thought that EVs are perfect for cities, but the problem is that city housing stock generally doesn’t have off street parking, or one street charger per house, so EVs are less perfect for city houses and flats.

But occasionally one needs to do a longer journey with a fair bit of luggage. For example, one university run we have is 220miles each way and the other is 300 miles each way. The car (L322 RR) gets packed to the gunnels with the rear seats down. I tend not to take stops during those journeys, and do the round trip in a day if I can. Both destinations are in the NE where (from my limited googling) it doesn’t seem that fast chargers are as plentiful as they are in the SE. So for that specific use case - which admittedly for me will be over soon, but is hardly unique - I don’t see that an EV offers a viable alternative, much less one at a reasonable price.

But an EV that had a real world 350 mile range and could recharge fully in 30-60 mins, and for which a charger existed at my destination, great - where do I sign?

Regards street level charging for houses without private charging spaces, it's only a matter of time. It will happen because it must - companies are already tempting governments with various solutions so that everyone can charge.

As for the occasional longer journey, I have to do the odd one too. I would say it's a pain having to look for a place to charge but I've typically driven 200 miles before I do and I'm OK with stopping. I only need a fairly short charge anyway - because we live on a small island and anything more than 300 miles in most directions would lead to me driving in to the sea.

I'd rather plan a charge stop on the odd trip than go back to the weekly petrol station visit

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

BlackWidow13 said:

TheDeuce said:

It says something that you're running a fleet of them doing taxi mileage and still not complaining about charge times.

The hesitant non-EV crowd and motoring press need to get a grip!

It takes a certain level of insanity/stubbornness for people to worry about how long it takes to 'fill up' in a car that has the ability to start each and every day with a full 'tank'.

And now of course, a liar will join this thread claiming they need to tow a caravan 400 miles twice a week and that it's up a mountain the entire way - so they need a proper car.

Not really. I’ve long thought that EVs are perfect for cities, but the problem is that city housing stock generally doesn’t have off street parking, or one street charger per house, so EVs are less perfect for city houses and flats.

But occasionally one needs to do a longer journey with a fair bit of luggage. For example, one university run we have is 220miles each way and the other is 300 miles each way. The car (L322 RR) gets packed to the gunnels with the rear seats down. I tend not to take stops during those journeys, and do the round trip in a day if I can. Both destinations are in the NE where (from my limited googling) it doesn’t seem that fast chargers are as plentiful as they are in the SE. So for that specific use case - which admittedly for me will be over soon, but is hardly unique - I don’t see that an EV offers a viable alternative, much less one at a reasonable price.

But an EV that had a real world 350 mile range and could recharge fully in 30-60 mins, and for which a charger existed at my destination, great - where do I sign?

Regards street level charging for houses without private charging spaces, it's only a matter of time. It will happen because it must - companies are already tempting governments with various solutions so that everyone can charge.

As for the occasional longer journey, I have to do the odd one too. I would say it's a pain having to look for a place to charge but I've typically driven 200 miles before I do and I'm OK with stopping. I only need a fairly short charge anyway - because we live on a small island and anything more than 300 miles in most directions would lead to me driving in to the sea.

I'd rather plan a charge stop on the odd trip than go back to the weekly petrol station visit

That, to me, underlines that EVs may be the future, but the infrastructure to support them either isn’t there yet, or isn’t sufficiently matured, depending on where one is.

FWIW, given my quite specific use case, I’ve concluded that I’d be best off with a plug in hybrid. We are very fortunate to have off street parking roughly the size of one medium sized car, so have the option to get a home charger. I’m aware of the arguments that say a PIH is the worst of both worlds, always dragging around some components that are doing nothing, but I tend to the view that it all depends on your usage. If you want one car, and do mostly short urban trips and long motorway runs, and not much in between, a PIH seems to me to tick all your boxes.

The other slight fly in the ointment though is that changing cars usually involves some capital outlay. Now if your ICE car hits end of life, you’ve got that issue anyway and so it’s not so much of a factor. But if your ICE car is still going strong, an unnecessary capital outlay to switch to an EV isn’t likely to be welcome.

[JonChalk]

BlackWidow13 said:

The other slight fly in the ointment though is that changing cars usually involves some capital outlay. Now if your ICE car hits end of life, you’ve got that issue anyway and so it’s not so much of a factor. But if your ICE car is still going strong, an unnecessary capital outlay to switch to an EV isn’t likely to be welcome.

I'm pretty pro-EV - if you can afford a £50k car, you can make an EV work - yes, I understand your initial use-case and am no disputing it, but an EV could be made to work for you, with adjustments to how you planed / prepared for a journey, but I recognise your right not to have to / want to do so. That is fair enough.

But your last point is absolutely correct. I have a mate who's a painter/decorator and he's tooling about in a 200k mile plus diesel Toyota estate to take all his gear. He was asking about my EV recently and whether there's 2nd hand ones available he could swap to.

My answer, for him, was don't bother, it's not worth it - his capital outlay would be out of proportion to his ability to pay for it - he needs to stick with ICE, and his diesel Toyota (or it's equivalent replacement), to the bitter end.

He will be one of those for whom it will take another 10+ years for the secondhand EV market to catch up to his ability to afford it.

[SWoll]

JonChalk said:

I'm pretty pro-EV - if you can afford a £50k car, you can make an EV work - yes, I understand your initial use-case and am no disputing it, but an EV could be made to work for you, with adjustments to how you planed / prepared for a journey, but I recognise your right not to have to / want to do so. That is fair enough.

But your last point is absolutely correct. I have a mate who's a painter/decorator and he's tooling about in a 200k mile plus diesel Toyota estate to take all his gear. He was asking about my EV recently and whether there's 2nd hand ones available he could swap to.

My answer, for him, was don't bother, it's not worth it - his capital outlay would be out of proportion to his ability to pay for it - he needs to stick with ICE, and his diesel Toyota (or it's equivalent replacement), to the bitter end.

He will be one of those for whom it will take another 10+ years for the secondhand EV market to catch up to his ability to afford it.

Wat's his budget and how much does his current car cost to run per month? The MG5 EV Estate can be bought at a year old for £24k or leased new for £230 a month, is it really going to take 10+ years for one to become a affordable for him?

[Big Nanas]

BlackWidow13 said:

Not really. I’ve long thought that EVs are perfect for cities, but the problem is that city housing stock generally doesn’t have off street parking, or one street charger per house, so EVs are less perfect for city houses and flats.

But occasionally one needs to do a longer journey with a fair bit of luggage. For example, one university run we have is 220miles each way and the other is 300 miles each way. The car (L322 RR) gets packed to the gunnels with the rear seats down. I tend not to take stops during those journeys, and do the round trip in a day if I can. Both destinations are in the NE where (from my limited googling) it doesn’t seem that fast chargers are as plentiful as they are in the SE. So for that specific use case - which admittedly for me will be over soon, but is hardly unique - I don’t see that an EV offers a viable alternative, much less one at a reasonable price.

But an EV that had a real world 350 mile range and could recharge fully in 30-60 mins, and for which a charger existed at my destination, great - where do I sign?

Last summer we took our BMW i3s from Surrey to the in-laws in Northumberland. 330 miles one way, and we had destination charging so had to exclusively use rapid chargers. We did 1000 miles in total.
Zero problems, and this is with a car with a pretty small range.
Yes it took longer, but it's hardly a massive issue. I was actually surprised how many rapid chargers there are in Northumberland, and not once when we were up there did we have to wait to charge.

• edit*

Actually we did encounter one problem, On our way up we stopped at Whetherby Services to charge, but timed it very badly. 1pm on a sunny summer holiday, so it was rammed. Car park was full, people queuing for petrol etc, but even with that we only had to wait 20 minutes for a charger to become free.
They're currently finishing adding a further 12 chargers there, so that's going to help massively.

Edited by Big Nanas on Wednesday 15th June 08:33

[bigothunter]

Panamax said:

It's like having a petrol tank that can be filled in 5 seconds but needs the filler neck to be a foot wide and filled from a railway water tower.

ICE cars already refuel at 32 MW, trucks at 84 MW with commercial aircraft over 1 GW.

Not the same scenario or energy efficiency as EVs but impressive none the less.

[Scrimpton]

I think it is just the fear of the unknown. I have an EV and am totally in favour of them but I'm off to Headlingley for the cricket next week (110 miles each way) and I'm thinking of taking the Porsche as I'd need to top up on the way back and I'm worried about the availability of charging. I guess it shows that having had an EV for 18 months I've only had to charge away from home once.

[FarmyardPants]

F20CN16 said:

paradigital said:

Diderot said:

Ain’t that the truth for many of us. Almost 1 year in and we charge every other week to 80 % if needs be.

Sounds about right. I’m charging my Model 3 overnight roughly once a fortnight.

Fast charging for most people is going to be an occasional thing, not a way of life. If the authors of said articles actually drove EVs daily rather than for a one-off review they’d be reporting things as they are, rather than perpetually comparing the charging with refuelling an ICE. They aren’t the same thing at all.

Yup, I rapid charged the car recently from 40-80% in 30 mins (this is 34kWh of energy). Time at services goes very quickly indeed. Walked from chargers to the toilets, ordered KFC, and rushed to eat it because I didn’t need to charge it that much!

The irony is, if we’d needed fuel for an ICE car at this point, the total time at the services would have been longer!

It is so convenient charging it at work, home, at friends/family’s houses.

Edited by F20CN16 on Tuesday 14th June 21:14

I did 10% to 94% (61 kWh) in 30 mins the other day.
At the start it was pulling 223 kW, or 1% every 12s. In terms of miles per hour this is > Mach 1