An interesting time to be a car fan?

[TheDeuce]

LasseV said:

OutInTheShed said:

A 1000BHP 'car' is not the future of anything.

It might be zero tailpipe emission, but it's chronic overconsumption, lots of resources used to make something with very little function.

There might be some point to a dozen of them racing on a circuit, keeping lots of people entertained.

But on increasingly monitored public roads, I can see the market for these things shrinking to a point pretty soon.

This is future of the hypercars. FCEV powertrain can have best sides from both worlds: low weight, long range and fast refill of ICE vehichle compined with huge power and zero emission of EV.

X5 hydrogen model does same thing albeit in lesser form. It has 2kwh battery+125kw FC stack and 370hp. This is the future. Small battery is best for enviroment and fuel cell stack is 100% recyclable.

It's not the future though. Solid state cells are. At least double the energy density so they entirely solve the weight problem, and cleaner/greener than HFC. Simpler too.

Solo state could still be another decade off practical mass production and there are other issues to work out, but it'll happen.

I can't see HFC going mainstream and an infrastructure developing in less time than it takes to get solid state sorted. For one thing there's a good deal more money invested in trying to get the new cells to market than there is in HFC development/infrastructure.

[gmaz]

If you look at the amount of gubbins in a Toyota Mirai in the cutaway diagrams below, and that only generates about 128kW from the fuel cell, I don't see how a lightweight hypercar will be able to produce 1000bhp (750kW?) unless it is for very brief periods only.

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/new-mirai-hydrogen-fuel-c...

[TheDeuce]

gmaz said:

If you look at the amount of gubbins in a Toyota Mirai in the cutaway diagrams below, and that only generates about 128kW from the fuel cell, I don't see how a lightweight hypercar will be able to produce 1000bhp (750kW?) unless it is for very brief periods only.

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/new-mirai-hydrogen-fuel-c...

It will only be for relatively brief periods. Which is actually not an issue really, where on earth (literally) can a thousand hp lightweight car deploy that level of power for more than a short period anyway? It's unlikely any owner is going to use enough power for long enough to fully deplete the battery.

The question is how brief is brief - and what level of power can the HFC provide on a continuous basis once the battery store is depleted.

[SWoll]

gmaz said:

If you look at the amount of gubbins in a Toyota Mirai in the cutaway diagrams below, and that only generates about 128kW from the fuel cell, I don't see how a lightweight hypercar will be able to produce 1000bhp (750kW?) unless it is for very brief periods only.

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/new-mirai-hydrogen-fuel-c...

Because vapourware. Any number of these kind of cars have been doing the rounds for a while now, and funnily enough the companies always have other products/technology to sell. Almost like they're just trying to generate interest and drive traffic/investment..

Here's another https://www.hyperion.inc/xp1

And another https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows...

And this one from Greece with 3000BHP. I imagine it runs on unicorn tears.. https://greekcitytimes.com/2021/11/02/chaos-greek-...

Edited by SWoll on Friday 24th June 17:10

[OutInTheShed]

TheDeuce said:

gmaz said:

If you look at the amount of gubbins in a Toyota Mirai in the cutaway diagrams below, and that only generates about 128kW from the fuel cell, I don't see how a lightweight hypercar will be able to produce 1000bhp (750kW?) unless it is for very brief periods only.

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/new-mirai-hydrogen-fuel-c...

It will only be for relatively brief periods. Which is actually not an issue really, where on earth (literally) can a thousand hp lightweight car deploy that level of power for more than a short period anyway? It's unlikely any owner is going to use enough power for long enough to fully deplete the battery.

The question is how brief is brief - and what level of power can the HFC provide on a continuous basis once the battery store is depleted.

Indeed, there is a serious limit to how long you can use more than a couple of hundred BHP. Continuous 200BHP is probably a constant 200MPH or something. So you can only accelerate on a long straight and hold the speed for a few seconds. Even with plenty of aero downforce, how much power can you actually use on average? Don't F1 cars average something like 3-400 BHP through a race? So you'd have to be driving and braking pretty hard for a 128kW fuel cell not to keep up with the average?
Or towing a caravan.

[GT9]

SWoll said:

Because vapourware. Any number of these kind of cars have been doing the rounds for a while now, and funnily enough the companies always have other products/technology to sell. Almost like they're just trying to generate interest and drive traffic/investment..

Here's another https://www.hyperion.inc/xp1

And another https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows...

And this one from Greece with 3000BHP. I imagine it runs on unicorn tears.. https://greekcitytimes.com/2021/11/02/chaos-greek-...

Edited by SWoll on Friday 24th June 17:10

I have a little more faith in the team behind the Apricale, working in conjunction with Pininfarina, to bring it to fruition as an ultra low-volume product. The car is on display at Goodwood, admittedly the glass is a bit too heavily tinted, so it may only be a shell.

[SWoll]

GT9 said:

I have a little more faith in the team behind the Apricale, working in conjunction with Pininfarina, to bring it to fruition as an ultra low-volume product. The car is on display at Goodwood, admittedly the glass is a bit too heavily tinted, so it may only be a shell.

It's a mule based on an older Pininfarina design. The original Apricale design looked like this.



now it's this

[GT9]

SWoll said:

It's a mule based on an older Pininfarina design. The original Apricale design looked like this.



now it's this

Actually, I think it's the other way around, in that the original design (which looks great btw) was done by Viritech, and the latest design is an optimised version done by Pininfarina. Optimised for aero/regs/producibility/cost/etc. Something was definitely lost in the translation.

[TheDeuce]

OutInTheShed said:

TheDeuce said:

gmaz said:

If you look at the amount of gubbins in a Toyota Mirai in the cutaway diagrams below, and that only generates about 128kW from the fuel cell, I don't see how a lightweight hypercar will be able to produce 1000bhp (750kW?) unless it is for very brief periods only.

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/new-mirai-hydrogen-fuel-c...

It will only be for relatively brief periods. Which is actually not an issue really, where on earth (literally) can a thousand hp lightweight car deploy that level of power for more than a short period anyway? It's unlikely any owner is going to use enough power for long enough to fully deplete the battery.

The question is how brief is brief - and what level of power can the HFC provide on a continuous basis once the battery store is depleted.

Indeed, there is a serious limit to how long you can use more than a couple of hundred BHP. Continuous 200BHP is probably a constant 200MPH or something. So you can only accelerate on a long straight and hold the speed for a few seconds. Even with plenty of aero downforce, how much power can you actually use on average? Don't F1 cars average something like 3-400 BHP through a race? So you'd have to be driving and braking pretty hard for a 128kW fuel cell not to keep up with the average?
Or towing a caravan.

Let's just say, on the public road I expect there would be twinkly blue lights following you before you managed to fully deplete the battery. Even deploying 1000hp on the straight bits, you'd get a chunk back when you inevitably have to brake. Over several miles of driving like a hooligan you'd struggle to burn through more than 2-3 kw I'd have thought.

And by the time plod has written the ticket, the battery will have topped itself up again.

[SWoll]

GT9 said:

Actually, I think it's the other way around, in that the original design (which looks great btw) was done by Viritech, and the latest design is an optimised version done by Pininfarina. Optimised for aero/regs/producibility/cost/etc. Something was definitely lost in the translation.

Yep, that's what I meant. The Pinin design was their own originally I believe and then tey went into partnership with Viritech.

I agree, prefer the original. More than a hint of McLaren F1 about it and far less fussy.

[GT9]

TheDeuce said:

OutInTheShed said:

TheDeuce said:

gmaz said:

If you look at the amount of gubbins in a Toyota Mirai in the cutaway diagrams below, and that only generates about 128kW from the fuel cell, I don't see how a lightweight hypercar will be able to produce 1000bhp (750kW?) unless it is for very brief periods only.

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/new-mirai-hydrogen-fuel-c...

It will only be for relatively brief periods. Which is actually not an issue really, where on earth (literally) can a thousand hp lightweight car deploy that level of power for more than a short period anyway? It's unlikely any owner is going to use enough power for long enough to fully deplete the battery.

The question is how brief is brief - and what level of power can the HFC provide on a continuous basis once the battery store is depleted.

Indeed, there is a serious limit to how long you can use more than a couple of hundred BHP. Continuous 200BHP is probably a constant 200MPH or something. So you can only accelerate on a long straight and hold the speed for a few seconds. Even with plenty of aero downforce, how much power can you actually use on average? Don't F1 cars average something like 3-400 BHP through a race? So you'd have to be driving and braking pretty hard for a 128kW fuel cell not to keep up with the average?
Or towing a caravan.

Let's just say, on the public road I expect there would be twinkly blue lights following you before you managed to fully deplete the battery. Even deploying 1000hp on the straight bits, you'd get a chunk back when you inevitably have to brake. Over several miles of driving like a hooligan you'd struggle to burn through more than 2-3 kw I'd have thought.

And by the time plod has written the ticket, the battery will have topped itself up again.

I believe the Apricale has a pair of fuel cells producing 'several hundreds of kW' between them.

At 200 mph, the obvious energy consumer is drag, I'd estimate it to require 250 kW at the wheels just for drag. Add rolling resistance, losses in the motors and electronics plus auxilary loads, it would need 300 kW+ to sustain 200 mph, so that seems to tie up with a pair of 150 kW fuel cells.

I believe it has a single gear, so the instantaneous power available from the motors will vary with road speed. I don't know what the actual motor power curve looks like, but because the car is light, call it 1150 kg with 2 people on board, there is no need for the full 800 kW until you get to around 125 mph or more. Below that, you would be exceeding 1G acceleration if you could actually deploy it.

So it seems likely that this car will do the 0-125 mph sprint in sub 6 seconds like several other hyper cars. The energy needed to that is sub 1 kWh. A sprint to top speed will need a fair bit more, but probably not more than the 6 kWh battery can deliver, assuming it is fully charged.

What this seems to show is that there is merit in the hybrid approach for hypercars, where you only carry just enough battery energy to deliver the instantaneous performance you require and just enough hydrogen and fuel cell to deliver the range and average power you require.

[TheDeuce]

GT9 said:

TheDeuce said:

OutInTheShed said:

TheDeuce said:

gmaz said:

If you look at the amount of gubbins in a Toyota Mirai in the cutaway diagrams below, and that only generates about 128kW from the fuel cell, I don't see how a lightweight hypercar will be able to produce 1000bhp (750kW?) unless it is for very brief periods only.

https://mag.toyota.co.uk/new-mirai-hydrogen-fuel-c...

It will only be for relatively brief periods. Which is actually not an issue really, where on earth (literally) can a thousand hp lightweight car deploy that level of power for more than a short period anyway? It's unlikely any owner is going to use enough power for long enough to fully deplete the battery.

The question is how brief is brief - and what level of power can the HFC provide on a continuous basis once the battery store is depleted.

Indeed, there is a serious limit to how long you can use more than a couple of hundred BHP. Continuous 200BHP is probably a constant 200MPH or something. So you can only accelerate on a long straight and hold the speed for a few seconds. Even with plenty of aero downforce, how much power can you actually use on average? Don't F1 cars average something like 3-400 BHP through a race? So you'd have to be driving and braking pretty hard for a 128kW fuel cell not to keep up with the average?
Or towing a caravan.

Let's just say, on the public road I expect there would be twinkly blue lights following you before you managed to fully deplete the battery. Even deploying 1000hp on the straight bits, you'd get a chunk back when you inevitably have to brake. Over several miles of driving like a hooligan you'd struggle to burn through more than 2-3 kw I'd have thought.

And by the time plod has written the ticket, the battery will have topped itself up again.

I believe the Apricale has a pair of fuel cells producing 'several hundreds of kW' between them.

At 200 mph, the obvious energy consumer is drag, I'd estimate it to require 250 kW at the wheels just for drag. Add rolling resistance, losses in the motors and electronics plus auxilary loads, it would need 300 kW+ to sustain 200 mph, so that seems to tie up with a pair of 150 kW fuel cells.

I believe it has a single gear, so the instantaneous power available from the motors will vary with road speed. I don't know what the actual motor power curve looks like, but because the car is light, call it 1150 kg with 2 people on board, there is no need for the full 800 kW until you get to around 125 mph or more. Below that, you would be exceeding 1G acceleration if you could actually deploy it.

So it seems likely that this car will do the 0-125 mph sprint in sub 6 seconds like several other hyper cars. The energy needed to that is sub 1 kWh. A sprint to top speed will need a fair bit more, but probably not more than the 6 kWh battery can deliver, assuming it is fully charged.

What this seems to show is that there is merit in the hybrid approach for hypercars, where you only carry just enough battery energy to deliver the instantaneous performance you require and just enough hydrogen and fuel cell to deliver the range and average power you require.

That's a fair summary. If you want the lightest electric car with decent range and high peak power it works.

But the moment cell technology takes a leap, it becomes an overly complex dinosaur.

[LasseV]

TheDeuce said:

That's a fair summary. If you want the lightest electric car with decent range and high peak power it works.

But the moment cell technology takes a leap, it becomes an overly complex dinosaur.

The thing is, it doesn't take that leap.

[TheDeuce]

LasseV said:

TheDeuce said:

That's a fair summary. If you want the lightest electric car with decent range and high peak power it works.

But the moment cell technology takes a leap, it becomes an overly complex dinosaur.

The thing is, it doesn't take that leap.

2x energy density of current cells and potential to reach 3x.

That's close enough to mitigate the need for an onboard HFC power plant. The only benefit of which is the possibility to quickly fill up - but the infrastructure is never going to exist to provide convenient refuelling points because it's just too niche. The vast majority can cope with present day BEV and charge at or close to home.

[LasseV]

TheDeuce said:

2x energy density of current cells and potential to reach 3x.

That's close enough to mitigate the need for an onboard HFC power plant. The only benefit of which is the possibility to quickly fill up - but the infrastructure is never going to exist to provide convenient refuelling points because it's just too niche. The vast majority can cope with present day BEV and charge at or close to home.

I don't believe that it will happen. If you mean solid state batteries?

[TheDeuce]

LasseV said:

TheDeuce said:

2x energy density of current cells and potential to reach 3x.

That's close enough to mitigate the need for an onboard HFC power plant. The only benefit of which is the possibility to quickly fill up - but the infrastructure is never going to exist to provide convenient refuelling points because it's just too niche. The vast majority can cope with present day BEV and charge at or close to home.

I don't believe that it will happen. If you mean solid state batteries?

Yes, solid state.

Fair enough, believe what you wish.

[LasseV]

TheDeuce said:

Yes, solid state.

Fair enough, believe what you wish.

Why do you have so high hopes for it? They will be a even more expensive than li-ion batteries. Basically everyone says so.

High price is not a problem for hypercar, but it is a huge problem for cheaper cars. However FCEV powertrain will still weight less and that's a big thing.

If solid state battery does work, they will make FCEV powertrain even better. Cost is a smaller issue when battery is small.

Only manufacturer who could stomach such a high priced cars is Merc. Even BMW will need to find cheaper powertrains.

Btw, Apricale battery size is circa 6.5kwh.

Edited by LasseV on Saturday 25th June 10:22

[cerb4.5lee]

For me it is getting less and less interesting if you are a car fan. I can just imagine how boring it would be at a car show when every car is electric. No noise or emotion whatsoever.

Car magazines don't interest me as much anymore either, because most of the cars in the magazines are either hybrid or full electric, and those cars don't interest me. So being a car fan now is going downhill fast in my opinion.

[TheDeuce]

LasseV said:

Why do you have so high hopes for it? They will be a even more expensive than li-ion batteries. Basically everyone says so.

High price is not a problem for hypercar, but it is a huge problem for cheaper cars. If solid state battery does work, they will make FCEV powertrain even better. Cost is a smaller issue when battery is small.

Only manufacturer who could stomach such a high priced cars is Merc. Even BMW will need to find cheaper powertrains.

Btw, Apricale battery size is circa 6.5kwh.

The price will come down once the problems with mass production and cell stacking are solved. In the end they should be cheaper tha li-ion because they actually use less rare earth materials. They also have a practically unlimited lifespan in terms of charge cycles and degredation, so cost in that sense has to relative to the current cells. The stability and robustness of solid state cells would mean they have substantial retained value once taken from a retired EV.

I'm not suggesting commercially viable and affordable solid state cells we appear anytime soon, but I believe it will happen.

[TheDeuce]

cerb4.5lee said:

For me it is getting less and less interesting if you are a car fan. I can just imagine how boring it would be at a car show when every car is electric. No noise or emotion whatsoever.

Car magazines don't interest me as much anymore either, because most of the cars in the magazines are either hybrid or full electric, and those cars don't interest me. So being a car fan now is going downhill fast in my opinion.

I agree that a lot of what made interesting ICE cars interesting, is lost in the shift to EV. On the flip side, I find the capabilities of interesting EV's, interesting.

And at a car event, you're forevermore going to see interesting ICE cars doing their thing. You'll also see EV's destroy the hill climbs and drag races. A big part of EV interest is technology driven, less soulful perhaps, but the development and application of technologies is for many people quite interesting.

I did some work for JLR on the European motorshow circuit for several years up until 2019, and in that time it went from the odd EV on show to pretty much every manufacturer in attendance giving a press release about it's EV ambitions and unveiling the latest electric models. There was no less interest that I witnessed, just different sorts of people pouring over the cars and asking different questions on the stands. When we launched the iPace, the level of interest was at fever pitch. Only the new Defender attracted more interest but that is obviously an icon and was a very long time baking before it finally arrived! Even then every second question from both press and public seemed to be about when they would finally put out an EV Range Rover..

Actually on that last point, there is a huge group of people that love their large and luxurious SUV's but for the last 10+ years such cars have attracted a lot of criticism - especially when they're utilised for nothing other than the school run or to pootle around town. That's why for that group, there is a lot of interest in EV alternatives. Rolls Royce drivers and customers are also naturally keen to shed the excessive pollution problem and 'go green'(er), hence the interest in their upcoming Spectre car.

I don't think there is a shortage of interest overall.