An interesting time to be a car fan?
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sometimes the most satisfying thing is to have a comfortable and easy to drive car. A drivers car suggest more involvement is required which is great when you're blasting down a b-road for fun, but not so great in stop-start town traffic. The fun ICE car is also always costing you more to run, which is no fun if at least half the time you can't do anything fun with it.What I would say is that I agree with SWOLL right now, if I had that £100k budget - there would be a decent EV with plenty of gadgetry and tech, but there would also be a V8 M3.
But if the scenario was to choose just one car, it would be EV, specifically my iPace which is plenty fun to drive, almost unreasonably so given it's size and weight, but it's also a very relaxing and luxurious place to sit in traffic - surrounded with soft leather, breathing HEPA filtered air, listening to music on the 825w sound system and all whilst the car automatically follows the chain of traffic ahead. For the best of all worlds you need an EV, but it has to be a good one - not some plasticky piece of tut that ticks the 'EV' box but leaves all other boxes empty.
The cool thing is that you can also take the i3 on the twisty stuff too and enjoy it and it works really well on narrow roads given its footprint. The lack of grip can be quite entertaining too. It's no hardship driving an i3.
I know from experience that a 911 is not the solution for me and I also personally prefer some variety in the fleet and cars that are good at particular things. It's not hard for me to pick the right car for the day that's in it and there's always tomorrow so no reason to stress about it.
I know from experience that a 911 is not the solution for me and I also personally prefer some variety in the fleet and cars that are good at particular things. It's not hard for me to pick the right car for the day that's in it and there's always tomorrow so no reason to stress about it.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My response was because we regularly take our young kids across the continent.While a 911 is a great car and all rounder, the ones that are lauded for being amazing drivers' cars are often very compromised in terms of comfort, while the comfortable ones are no more entertaining than a good 5-series.
Almost none of the modern ones I find entertaining sub 100km/h. They are just too accomplished and good for that to be even close to entertaining at that speed.
Every car is a compromise. If you take a caterham, few can deny it's raw and connected. But even fewer will tell you how great a family car it is.
Pick any modern car that can take 4 people across the continent and it'll probably be 2T+, have 4wd, automatic gearbox, muted exhaust (probably with interior speakers) and all the driver aids you can image.
The 911 is unique in that there's such a wide variety of models, and driving a couple of them the can be VERY different. In fact, I struggle to see any car model that spans such a wide array of the spectrum, most of them are very good, but not at the same things.
I think 10 years ago was the peak before EVs came in and classic car prices were more sensible and bought for what they are, and not simply as an investment.
I hope interest rates now rise significantly, increasing the value of "cash" and bring asset prices down to more widely affordable levels, particularly for property but I hope small motorcycles from the 1980s to.
I hope interest rates now rise significantly, increasing the value of "cash" and bring asset prices down to more widely affordable levels, particularly for property but I hope small motorcycles from the 1980s to.
TheDeuce said:
Anyone else enjoying the rapid pace of change right now?
Yup - I am loving it!!!I cant wait to see what happens. Porsche is doing some pretty astonishing stuff at the moment - the Taycan is widely praised, if a stupidly expensive, but is a stunning car to drive. The Mission R race car prototype is widely assumed to be the prelude to the new Boxster EV and the recent 'prototype' they have been letting journo's drive is as close as a production EV race car as you can get (though in a body of a Cayman).
It shows that there is innovation, passion and stupid stuff going on. This is just one OEM. Lets see what happens with Lamborghini, Ferrari and others - and what about some of the stuff that will come from the hypercar brands? Thats one end of the spectrum, but I am equally interested to see what others can do. I cannot wait for an EV Mazda, and not the PHEV's they are attempting to sell at the moment. And while it doesnt float that many peoples boats, the EV pickup market is certainly interesting - the Hummer with its gizmos and gadgets (and a sense of humor) to the Rivian with the 4 wheel control to the simple practicality and normal looking F-150 Lightning.... yeah, I am really interested to see what happens.
And yeah, its not going to be a loud shouty world, but its going to be years before everyone has an EV - and I am just enjoying the view as the engineers get to do their stuff.....
I tend to stick with older cars (initially due to budget constraints and now out of choice). I am able to recognise that they are worse than modern cars in almost every measurable way. But for less than a grand, you can go out and buy a car that you can use every day. It can be driven to the other end of the country on a whim, and sold on whenever you want, often without losing a penny in depreciation. This is something that's been taken for granted for years, but I don't think motoring will be anywhere near this cheap or accessible in years to come.
I've got no interest in modern cars at all, and for the first time in my life I am now seeing cars on the road without knowing/caring what they are. Perhaps a sign of getting old? Most new cars now seem to be over-sized plug-in hunchbacked crossovers with enormous grilles and gimmicky door handles. Usually finished in primer grey. And the cost of new cars is eye-watering!
The new Suzuki Jimny is/was a small, affordable, fit-for-purpose 4x4. Suzuki had to stop selling it because of emissions regulations. It's a tiny car with a 1.5 petrol engine that was never going to sell in huge numbers. Why kill it off when most cars are double the size/weight?
I appreciate that being negative about any form of modern technology usually results in being accused of having a fetish for starting handles, but here goes...
Touchscreens in cars that bury functions like heater controls and the stereo in sub-menus are dangerous. It requires the driver to take their eyes off the road, often for seconds at a time. No different to texting behind the wheel in my opinion.
And now a rant about EuroNCAP. They used to focus heavily on occupant safety and really forced the industry to up their game a couple of decades ago. Now they award a car just one star if it isn't equipped with 6,000 acronyms, most of which it wouldn't need.
Speaking of acronyms, I'm convinced that AEB (Active Emergency Braking) has caused more accidents than it's prevented. I've driven various cars from different manufacturers that have performed emergency stops for no apparent reason. If you rely on your car to brake for you, park for you, or change lanes for you, you probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.
As you can probably tell by now, I don't like where the automotive industry is, and I'm even less keen on the direction it's heading. I'll continue driving old wrecks for as long as I can.
I've got no interest in modern cars at all, and for the first time in my life I am now seeing cars on the road without knowing/caring what they are. Perhaps a sign of getting old? Most new cars now seem to be over-sized plug-in hunchbacked crossovers with enormous grilles and gimmicky door handles. Usually finished in primer grey. And the cost of new cars is eye-watering!
The new Suzuki Jimny is/was a small, affordable, fit-for-purpose 4x4. Suzuki had to stop selling it because of emissions regulations. It's a tiny car with a 1.5 petrol engine that was never going to sell in huge numbers. Why kill it off when most cars are double the size/weight?
I appreciate that being negative about any form of modern technology usually results in being accused of having a fetish for starting handles, but here goes...
Touchscreens in cars that bury functions like heater controls and the stereo in sub-menus are dangerous. It requires the driver to take their eyes off the road, often for seconds at a time. No different to texting behind the wheel in my opinion.
And now a rant about EuroNCAP. They used to focus heavily on occupant safety and really forced the industry to up their game a couple of decades ago. Now they award a car just one star if it isn't equipped with 6,000 acronyms, most of which it wouldn't need.
Speaking of acronyms, I'm convinced that AEB (Active Emergency Braking) has caused more accidents than it's prevented. I've driven various cars from different manufacturers that have performed emergency stops for no apparent reason. If you rely on your car to brake for you, park for you, or change lanes for you, you probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.
As you can probably tell by now, I don't like where the automotive industry is, and I'm even less keen on the direction it's heading. I'll continue driving old wrecks for as long as I can.
MrGTI6 said:
I tend to stick with older cars (initially due to budget constraints and now out of choice). I am able to recognise that they are worse than modern cars in almost every measurable way. But for less than a grand, you can go out and buy a car that you can use every day. It can be driven to the other end of the country on a whim, and sold on whenever you want, often without losing a penny in depreciation. This is something that's been taken for granted for years, but I don't think motoring will be anywhere near this cheap or accessible in years to come.
I've got no interest in modern cars at all, and for the first time in my life I am now seeing cars on the road without knowing/caring what they are. Perhaps a sign of getting old? Most new cars now seem to be over-sized plug-in hunchbacked crossovers with enormous grilles and gimmicky door handles. Usually finished in primer grey. And the cost of new cars is eye-watering!
The new Suzuki Jimny is/was a small, affordable, fit-for-purpose 4x4. Suzuki had to stop selling it because of emissions regulations. It's a tiny car with a 1.5 petrol engine that was never going to sell in huge numbers. Why kill it off when most cars are double the size/weight?
I appreciate that being negative about any form of modern technology usually results in being accused of having a fetish for starting handles, but here goes...
Touchscreens in cars that bury functions like heater controls and the stereo in sub-menus are dangerous. It requires the driver to take their eyes off the road, often for seconds at a time. No different to texting behind the wheel in my opinion.
And now a rant about EuroNCAP. They used to focus heavily on occupant safety and really forced the industry to up their game a couple of decades ago. Now they award a car just one star if it isn't equipped with 6,000 acronyms, most of which it wouldn't need.
Speaking of acronyms, I'm convinced that AEB (Active Emergency Braking) has caused more accidents than it's prevented. I've driven various cars from different manufacturers that have performed emergency stops for no apparent reason. If you rely on your car to brake for you, park for you, or change lanes for you, you probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.
As you can probably tell by now, I don't like where the automotive industry is, and I'm even less keen on the direction it's heading. I'll continue driving old wrecks for as long as I can.
If you can find me a reasonable car to drive to the other end of the country for a grand, I might be looking!I've got no interest in modern cars at all, and for the first time in my life I am now seeing cars on the road without knowing/caring what they are. Perhaps a sign of getting old? Most new cars now seem to be over-sized plug-in hunchbacked crossovers with enormous grilles and gimmicky door handles. Usually finished in primer grey. And the cost of new cars is eye-watering!
The new Suzuki Jimny is/was a small, affordable, fit-for-purpose 4x4. Suzuki had to stop selling it because of emissions regulations. It's a tiny car with a 1.5 petrol engine that was never going to sell in huge numbers. Why kill it off when most cars are double the size/weight?
I appreciate that being negative about any form of modern technology usually results in being accused of having a fetish for starting handles, but here goes...
Touchscreens in cars that bury functions like heater controls and the stereo in sub-menus are dangerous. It requires the driver to take their eyes off the road, often for seconds at a time. No different to texting behind the wheel in my opinion.
And now a rant about EuroNCAP. They used to focus heavily on occupant safety and really forced the industry to up their game a couple of decades ago. Now they award a car just one star if it isn't equipped with 6,000 acronyms, most of which it wouldn't need.
Speaking of acronyms, I'm convinced that AEB (Active Emergency Braking) has caused more accidents than it's prevented. I've driven various cars from different manufacturers that have performed emergency stops for no apparent reason. If you rely on your car to brake for you, park for you, or change lanes for you, you probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.
As you can probably tell by now, I don't like where the automotive industry is, and I'm even less keen on the direction it's heading. I'll continue driving old wrecks for as long as I can.
I should be looking for a 5 to 10 year old car to replace my 16 year old car, but I'm getting the impression the industry lost the plot ages ago.
My way of looking at things, you have to look at depreciation, repair bills and risk.
Risk of a big bill. Or a series of significant bills.
I've seen too many people get through a couple of grand in bills in a year for ordinary cars.
And too many people have major grief with new/nearly new cars.
I quite fancied a Jimny as a local runabout, but we decided we had to go all or nothing with a soft top, and if you're my height, the roll bar hits your head on bumpy roads.
Those big bills are typically related to the contents of the ICE engine bay or gearbox I'm guessing? At least with EVs you don't need to worry about service history. If it passed MOT, no lights on the dash, and drives in a straight line, you should be good to go. Which I think makes buying a used one a lot easier.
Of course electronics can and will fail too but that's the same for everything and not sure those problems are that frequent and don't always need rectifying either.
Of course electronics can and will fail too but that's the same for everything and not sure those problems are that frequent and don't always need rectifying either.
OutInTheShed said:
If you can find me a reasonable car to drive to the other end of the country for a grand, I might be looking!
I should be looking for a 5 to 10 year old car to replace my 16 year old car, but I'm getting the impression the industry lost the plot ages ago.
My way of looking at things, you have to look at depreciation, repair bills and risk.
Risk of a big bill. Or a series of significant bills.
I've seen too many people get through a couple of grand in bills in a year for ordinary cars.
And too many people have major grief with new/nearly new cars.
I quite fancied a Jimny as a local runabout, but we decided we had to go all or nothing with a soft top, and if you're my height, the roll bar hits your head on bumpy roads.
Don’t know about the current market, but a few years ago I bought an Alfa 156 JTD for £300, that after a brisk service did 25,000 miles without skipping a beat. It got a bit more of a thorough overhaul (mainly because I’m a perfectionist), and has since done another 50K commuting up and down the M4. I could sell it today for more than the purchase price + all the parts I’ve thrown at it. I should be looking for a 5 to 10 year old car to replace my 16 year old car, but I'm getting the impression the industry lost the plot ages ago.
My way of looking at things, you have to look at depreciation, repair bills and risk.
Risk of a big bill. Or a series of significant bills.
I've seen too many people get through a couple of grand in bills in a year for ordinary cars.
And too many people have major grief with new/nearly new cars.
I quite fancied a Jimny as a local runabout, but we decided we had to go all or nothing with a soft top, and if you're my height, the roll bar hits your head on bumpy roads.
rxe said:
Don’t know about the current market, but a few years ago I bought an Alfa 156 JTD for £300, that after a brisk service did 25,000 miles without skipping a beat. It got a bit more of a thorough overhaul (mainly because I’m a perfectionist), and has since done another 50K commuting up and down the M4. I could sell it today for more than the purchase price + all the parts I’ve thrown at it.
Always liked the 156, came close to buying one of the last Sportwagons, but they are old cars now.It's a 25 year old design.
Never felt quite the same about the 159, but even that's been out of production for 10 years now?
TheDeuce said:
Putting aside all the chatter about range and being cohearsed into accepting EV's etc ..
Is this not quite an exciting time to be a car fan?
Anyone else enjoying the rapid pace of change right now?
Yes. And no.Is this not quite an exciting time to be a car fan?
Anyone else enjoying the rapid pace of change right now?
I have a Tesla as well as a couple of V8's. As a daily driver the Tesla is peerless - rapid, cheap etc etc.
But I am worried about the lack of choice that's coming our way. EV's are (by and large) all very similar - electric motors, batteries and slippery (featureless) shapes. Great for driving an appliance on a commute every day.
But the decades of ICE engineering and all those fabulous engines disappearing is a shame.
I guess it's the legislation I don't like. Removing choice is never a good thing.
Terminator X said:
"Silent" how can you extract any joy from that.
TX.
Ask a deaf person if they ever find joy in the world?TX.
In terms of cars, we're used to sound validating the physical experience. There are other ways of getting that same validation though.
Cars that have immense and instant power are a different yet perfectly valid experience, and can be very fun. Once the weight issue is solved, they could be a lot more fun too.
TheDeuce said:
Terminator X said:
"Silent" how can you extract any joy from that.
TX.
Ask a deaf person if they ever find joy in the world?TX.
In terms of cars, we're used to sound validating the physical experience. There are other ways of getting that same validation though.
Cars that have immense and instant power are a different yet perfectly valid experience, and can be very fun. Once the weight issue is solved, they could be a lot more fun too.
Those who find thrills with things like mountain bikes, sailboards, kite surfing, racing dinghies, racing bikes, hang gliders and so on ....
Those who need loud exhausts and silly noises
One of my big regrets in motorcycling is I wish I'd adopted earplugs a lot sooner!
OutInTheShed said:
TheDeuce said:
Terminator X said:
"Silent" how can you extract any joy from that.
TX.
Ask a deaf person if they ever find joy in the world?TX.
In terms of cars, we're used to sound validating the physical experience. There are other ways of getting that same validation though.
Cars that have immense and instant power are a different yet perfectly valid experience, and can be very fun. Once the weight issue is solved, they could be a lot more fun too.
Those who find thrills with things like mountain bikes, sailboards, kite surfing, racing dinghies, racing bikes, hang gliders and so on ....
Those who need loud exhausts and silly noises
One of my big regrets in motorcycling is I wish I'd adopted earplugs a lot sooner!
I love the feeling of energy that comes from a roaring engine/exhaust, and the mechanical feel of certain cars. But I think once you fully embrace newer tech you can find the same level but different type of appreciation for the way these newer machines go about the job of giving the driver the best overall weapon to pilot.
As I always say, if you're alive and hold a driving license today, you'll be dead before it becomes particularly difficult to drive the very best of ICE (or the best they ever get before game over) if you get the itch. Those that come after won't care either way, they'll be born with EV and learn about the previous in history lessons. And hopefully see them in the flesh at various events. The same as we see steam engines and have all sorts of emotions about them, but we wouldn't vote for their mainstream return - no matter how visceral they are compared to what killed them off.
TheDeuce said:
...
As I always say, if you're alive and hold a driving license today, you'll be dead before it becomes particularly difficult to drive the very best of ICE (or the best they ever get before game over) if you get the itch....
Not sure I believe that TBH.As I always say, if you're alive and hold a driving license today, you'll be dead before it becomes particularly difficult to drive the very best of ICE (or the best they ever get before game over) if you get the itch....
Comparing what I got away with, and what was socially acceptable with what you can get away with today, things have changed a lot in ~20 years.
Of course that's a UK point of view, it's interesting to chat about motoring, and bikes in particular, with people from other parts of the world. Russia, India for instance.
I get the feeling that before I give up driving, most of the UK will be a 40 limit or less.
TheDeuce said:
There's probably more than two types of people
I love the feeling of energy that comes from a roaring engine/exhaust, and the mechanical feel of certain cars. But I think once you fully embrace newer tech you can find the same level but different type of appreciation for the way these newer machines go about the job of giving the driver the best overall weapon to pilot.
As I always say, if you're alive and hold a driving license today, you'll be dead before it becomes particularly difficult to drive the very best of ICE (or the best they ever get before game over) if you get the itch. Those that come after won't care either way, they'll be born with EV and learn about the previous in history lessons. And hopefully see them in the flesh at various events. The same as we see steam engines and have all sorts of emotions about them, but we wouldn't vote for their mainstream return - no matter how visceral they are compared to what killed them off.
Sort of. What is true is that already in 2022 the “really good” new ICE cars are off limits to most on an average or even top 20% income. Emira/718 GTS at £70k if you can get allocation, plus £150 a fill and road tax etc. I love the feeling of energy that comes from a roaring engine/exhaust, and the mechanical feel of certain cars. But I think once you fully embrace newer tech you can find the same level but different type of appreciation for the way these newer machines go about the job of giving the driver the best overall weapon to pilot.
As I always say, if you're alive and hold a driving license today, you'll be dead before it becomes particularly difficult to drive the very best of ICE (or the best they ever get before game over) if you get the itch. Those that come after won't care either way, they'll be born with EV and learn about the previous in history lessons. And hopefully see them in the flesh at various events. The same as we see steam engines and have all sorts of emotions about them, but we wouldn't vote for their mainstream return - no matter how visceral they are compared to what killed them off.
Peak ICE for the masses and in fact the demise of ICE has already happened. Nevermind 2030/2035 - petrolheads sailed past it about 10 years ago
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