An interesting time to be a car fan?

[GT9]

gmaz said:

It has so many parasitic loads that take the energy from the engine before it gets anywhere near the wheels

You forgot the gearbox

[gmaz]

GT9 said:

gmaz said:

It has so many parasitic loads that take the energy from the engine before it gets anywhere near the wheels

You forgot the gearbox

Yeah great example of how so much of the gubbins (technical term) of an ICE is there to overcome it's downsides...
- a gearbox because the torque is generated in a narrow powerband
- oil because of friction
- water cooling because of excess heat.
- EGR, DPF, Cat because of emmissions
- Silencer because of noise.

[BorkBorkBork]

gmaz said:

After driving an EV, the concept of an ICE just seems ridiculous:

Just to start the thing you need
1. A 12v battery
2. An electric motor
3. The engine itself
4. An electric motor wired backwards (alternator) to put the electricity back in the battery.

It has so many parasitic loads that take the energy from the engine before it gets anywhere near the wheels
1. Alternator
2. Oil pump
3. Fuel pump
4. Water pump
5. Radiator fan
6. Vacuum servo
7. Hydraulic power steering pump

An ICE is effectively an air pump with added explosions, but the air movement is restricted by
1. Air filter
2. EGR system
3. DPF
4. Catalytic converter
5. Resonator / back box

To create the explosions, you need to seal the cylinder using a valve spring. Have you ever tried to compress a valve spring? Imagine the energy required to compress one thousands of times a minute.

Likewise the fuel/air mixture has to be compressed 10:1 or more for diesel. That uses a vast amount of energy.

Then there's all the metal-on-metal friction of 100's of moving parts - piston rings, big end bearings, gears, camshafts on valve stems, all requiring oil, and all not quite fitting together until it is up to temperature.

Even stuff you've never heard of like "crankshaft windage" affects the energy loss.

I’ve often thought the same since the recent rebirth of the EV. It just seems absolutely potty that ICE has been with us so long. It’s so archaic in today’s world. Why manufacturers waited so long to revisit the EV is puzzling too. They really could, and should, have taken this technology seriously decades ago. Then who knows where we’d be now.

[benny.c]

I had an extended drive of my brother-in-law’s e-tron 55 the other day. I know it’s an SUV and not meant to be that exciting but by Christ it’s dull. Our crappy school run up! is ten times more entertaining to drive. Ditto the Hemi Grand Cherokee I had and even the tractor of a Wrangler I currently drive daily. I think I’m a dinosaur.

Edited by benny.c on Monday 20th June 21:57

[TheDeuce]

BorkBorkBork said:

gmaz said:

After driving an EV, the concept of an ICE just seems ridiculous:

Just to start the thing you need
1. A 12v battery
2. An electric motor
3. The engine itself
4. An electric motor wired backwards (alternator) to put the electricity back in the battery.

It has so many parasitic loads that take the energy from the engine before it gets anywhere near the wheels
1. Alternator
2. Oil pump
3. Fuel pump
4. Water pump
5. Radiator fan
6. Vacuum servo
7. Hydraulic power steering pump

An ICE is effectively an air pump with added explosions, but the air movement is restricted by
1. Air filter
2. EGR system
3. DPF
4. Catalytic converter
5. Resonator / back box

To create the explosions, you need to seal the cylinder using a valve spring. Have you ever tried to compress a valve spring? Imagine the energy required to compress one thousands of times a minute.

Likewise the fuel/air mixture has to be compressed 10:1 or more for diesel. That uses a vast amount of energy.

Then there's all the metal-on-metal friction of 100's of moving parts - piston rings, big end bearings, gears, camshafts on valve stems, all requiring oil, and all not quite fitting together until it is up to temperature.

Even stuff you've never heard of like "crankshaft windage" affects the energy loss.

I’ve often thought the same since the recent rebirth of the EV. It just seems absolutely potty that ICE has been with us so long. It’s so archaic in today’s world. Why manufacturers waited so long to revisit the EV is puzzling too. They really could, and should, have taken this technology seriously decades ago. Then who knows where we’d be now.

Yup.. it's just plain silly at this point to think the way to make most cars involves something as crude and complex as ICE.

Sure, for some car types ICE remains superior. But the fact that the whole car industry now has to go BEV will put further hundreds of billions into higher energy density batteries, which in turn will solve the weight and range issues.

And give us mobile phones we can charge in a few minutes that will last days.

This is a path we have to head down in order to solve the remaining issues - issues that for most drivers even today, aren't really an issue anyway.

[SWoll]

benny.c said:

I had an extended drive of my brother-in-law’s e-tron 55 the other day. I know it’s an SUV and not meant to be that exciting but by Christ it’s dull. Our crappy school run up! is ten times more entertaining to drive. Ditto the Hemi Grand Cherokee I had and even the tractor of a Wrangler I currently drive daily. I think I’m a dinosaur.

Edited by benny.c on Monday 20th June 21:57

We've got one at the minute and if you're looking for excitement, entertainment or fun you're going to be out of luck I agree. Set your expectations for a 2500Kg Audi SUV more realistically though and it's an incredibly comfortable, refined, practical and well built car with a surprising turn of speed.

As a daily car that's exactly what we were looking for, but will admit I am finding myself increasingly drawn to the autotrader website looking for something to run alongside it that will sate my inner PH. The only thing stopping me for the minute is the high prices of used cars and the expectation that will change in the next 6-12 months.

[TheDeuce]

SWoll said:

benny.c said:

I had an extended drive of my brother-in-law’s e-tron 55 the other day. I know it’s an SUV and not meant to be that exciting but by Christ it’s dull. Our crappy school run up! is ten times more entertaining to drive. Ditto the Hemi Grand Cherokee I had and even the tractor of a Wrangler I currently drive daily. I think I’m a dinosaur.

Edited by benny.c on Monday 20th June 21:57

We've got one at the minute and if you're looking for excitement, entertainment or fun you're going to be out of luck I agree. Set your expectations for a 2500Kg Audi SUV more realistically though and it's an incredibly comfortable, refined, practical and well built car with a surprising turn of speed.

As a daily car that's exactly what we were looking for, but will admit I am finding myself increasingly drawn to the autotrader website looking for something to run alongside it that will sate my inner PH. The only thing stopping me for the minute is the high prices of used cars and the expectation that will change in the next 6-12 months.

I tested an etron along with an EQC and the iPace, it's definitely the case that etron was the least fun to drive, the eqc was notably livlier feeling and the iPace was just on a different level when it comes to attacking twisty road.

This is deliberate though, there are different types of EV design philosophy for different types of driver demand. The etron is one of those EV's that seems to want the type of powertrain to be largely unnoticeable. You get all the EV benefits of course, and a decent bit of poke, but the car setup and design isn't at all focussed on making that power enjoyable in a dynamic 'fun' way.

The the iPace is more or less ground up designed to be as sporty as a crossover can reasonably be. But I suspect for every person that cares about that, there's another several people that would plump for the overall more practical etron or eqc!

Part of the expectation for EV cars to blow your socks off is definitely down to Tesla kickstarting the EV revolution with cars that were always marketed by how fast and sporty (in an American way..) they were. The reality is that whilst several EV's will put a smile on anyone's face, there are a lot more that just want to offer an electric alternative to the pretty standard, not fun cars that most people drive already.

Obviously, this is PH so a far higher % of this particular community does demand some fun from their car.

[TheRainMaker]

BorkBorkBork said:

I’ve often thought the same since the recent rebirth of the EV. It just seems absolutely potty that ICE has been with us so long. It’s so archaic in today’s world. Why manufacturers waited so long to revisit the EV is puzzling too. They really could, and should, have taken this technology seriously decades ago. Then who knows where we’d be now.

Because the batteries were garbage, nothing to do with the motors.

Nearly everyone has been trying to make BEV work since the car was invented.

[delta0]

TheRainMaker said:

Because the batteries were garbage, nothing to do with the motors.

Nearly everyone has been trying to make BEV work since the car was invented.

The technological advancement since then has been extreme, especially battery technologies. This is why they are more than viable now.

[McAndy]

Terminator X said:

"Silent" how can you extract any joy from that.

TX.

Excitement: no.

Joy: oh so much! Once a week I take my wife's EV to work, and the commute is night-and-day to my ICE. I like to listen to audiobooks and I don't have to turn up the volume to an eardrum-battering level in order to hear them over the powertrain. I am so much more relaxed when I get home, with no ringing in my ears!

And if I don't want to fill my ears with stuff because work has been challenging it's a lovely, smooth decompression chamber on wheels.

[annodomini2]

TheRainMaker said:

Because the batteries were garbage, nothing to do with the motors.

Nearly everyone has been trying to make BEV work since the car was invented.

BEVs predate ICE cars by 4 years.

They did work and were more popular up until the invention of electric start and the model T drastically bringing the cost down to the point where a BEV wasn't effective.

[SWoll]

McAndy said:

Terminator X said:

"Silent" how can you extract any joy from that.

TX.

Excitement: no.

Joy: oh so much! Once a week I take my wife's EV to work, and the commute is night-and-day to my ICE. I like to listen to audiobooks and I don't have to turn up the volume to an eardrum-battering level in order to hear them over the powertrain. I am so much more relaxed when I get home, with no ringing in my ears!

And if I don't want to fill my ears with stuff because work has been challenging it's a lovely, smooth decompression chamber on wheels.

This.

Yep. Got to an age where I look for very different things in a daily car, and after 2 years in a Model 3 Performance that was really driven home. Comfort, solidity, refinement are far higher priorities than performance or handling. Don't miss the hard ride or ultimately frustrating performance of the Tesla in the slightest and find I'm a much more relaxed driver just wafting around.

Even for a weekend ICE toy my priorities would be something that sounds great, looks great and feels special. Doesn't need to be crazy quick, do a sub 8 minute ring lap or pull 2G in corners.

Must be getting old.

[benny.c]

SWoll said:

We've got one at the minute and if you're looking for excitement, entertainment or fun you're going to be out of luck I agree. Set your expectations for a 2500Kg Audi SUV more realistically though and it's an incredibly comfortable, refined, practical and well built car with a surprising turn of speed.

There's no doubt it's a great bit of kit but unfortunately much development appears to be in this type of large EV - also an issue in the ICE world too I suppose. In the context of the original OP, I don't find it an interesting time to be a car fan as there's nothing on the immediate horizon that looks engaging for the average (PH) Joe. I've no doubt most will be very competent at what they do though.

SWoll said:

Even for a weekend ICE toy my priorities would be something that sounds great, looks great and feels special. Doesn't need to be crazy quick, do a sub 8 minute ring lap or pull 2G in corners.

Must be getting old.

Me too. I've been though the quick phase and now it's just something interesting.

Edited by benny.c on Tuesday 21st June 14:38

[jamesbilluk]

Certainly will be interesting to see where companies go from here. I'm sure now my next car will be an EV. As much as I love the Panamera, and the V6 sound, I find my self using it more and more using the EV mode alone, lovely and relaxing to drive! I would love a Taycan, but the prices don't agree with my wallet at the moment. I've been very tempted by an I - pace as well.

My ideal situation would be an EV as a daily driver, and something like the Morgan Super 3 for a weekend fun car (if I had the space of money)

[TheDeuce]

jamesbilluk said:

Certainly will be interesting to see where companies go from here. I'm sure now my next car will be an EV. As much as I love the Panamera, and the V6 sound, I find my self using it more and more using the EV mode alone, lovely and relaxing to drive! I would love a Taycan, but the prices don't agree with my wallet at the moment. I've been very tempted by an I - pace as well.

My ideal situation would be an EV as a daily driver, and something like the Morgan Super 3 for a weekend fun car (if I had the space of money)

I'll always put in a vote for the iPace, it's been fantastic! I just wish they'd do a hotter SVR version as I'll soon need to order another.. might go for the i4 M50 if not.

[jamesbilluk]

TheDeuce said:

I'll always put in a vote for the iPace, it's been fantastic! I just wish they'd do a hotter SVR version as I'll soon need to order another.. might go for the i4 M50 if not.

It does seem a great bit of kit, how long have you had yours for now? I imagine of I had a test drive, I would end up wanting one. Certainly that and the Taycan are the EVs tempting me out of ICE at the moment!

[TheDeuce]

jamesbilluk said:

TheDeuce said:

I'll always put in a vote for the iPace, it's been fantastic! I just wish they'd do a hotter SVR version as I'll soon need to order another.. might go for the i4 M50 if not.

It does seem a great bit of kit, how long have you had yours for now? I imagine of I had a test drive, I would end up wanting one. Certainly that and the Taycan are the EVs tempting me out of ICE at the moment!

2 years and 20k. You definitely need a test drive because I don't think there's any other way of convincing a car person that a two plus tonne SUV can actually behave in a fun and sporty manner. It would fail quickly on a track but on the open road... It's insane how hard you can push it without it feeling flawed by size/weight. I'll probably get flamed on here for saying that...

You'd need a full day with it ideally. My first hour or so testing it I actually wasn't impressed because part of my head simply refused to accept such a car could be acceptable

ETA: it's obviously not on Taycan level but if you appreciate practicality and luxury along with sportiness, hard to beat.

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 21st June 19:07

[anonymous-user]

McAndy said:

Terminator X said:

"Silent" how can you extract any joy from that.

TX.

Excitement: no.

Joy: oh so much! Once a week I take my wife's EV to work, and the commute is night-and-day to my ICE. I like to listen to audiobooks and I don't have to turn up the volume to an eardrum-battering level in order to hear them over the powertrain. I am so much more relaxed when I get home, with no ringing in my ears!

And if I don't want to fill my ears with stuff because work has been challenging it's a lovely, smooth decompression chamber on wheels.

Increasingly, for road driving i am finding the slient EV far more enjoyable to actually drive hard because it DOESN'T make any noise! Today people hate noisy cars, see any boomy, reving, farty sports car as antisocial (i mean, making [i[ that [/i] much noise you must be speeding right?). With my BEV i just floor it, rocket out of 30mph zones or overtake and nobody blinks an eyelid, you can give it total 11 tenths into, round and out of a roundabout and nobody even looks up, it's brilliant!

[anonymous-user]

gmaz said:

To create the explosions, you need to seal the cylinder using a valve spring. Have you ever tried to compress a valve spring? Imagine the energy required to compress one thousands of times a minute.

Just for reference valve springs hardly consume any power or create any parasitic drag because the energy used to compress the spring on the camshaft opening ramp is mostly returned on the closing ramp, where the spring actually pushes the cam around rather than vise versa! Hysteric losses are there, but for metal valve springs they are only a few percent at max. Yes, there are frictional loses, but for modern cam geometries these are also fairly small.

By far the biggest frictional losses actually come from the piston rings which make up something over 50% of total FMEP. And unlike valves, it's really hard to stop those loses ie to disconnect pistons from the crank at low loads etc (which is fairly easily achieveable with modern camtrains)

[BorkBorkBork]

TheRainMaker said:

BorkBorkBork said:

I’ve often thought the same since the recent rebirth of the EV. It just seems absolutely potty that ICE has been with us so long. It’s so archaic in today’s world. Why manufacturers waited so long to revisit the EV is puzzling too. They really could, and should, have taken this technology seriously decades ago. Then who knows where we’d be now.

Because the batteries were garbage, nothing to do with the motors.

Nearly everyone has been trying to make BEV work since the car was invented.

The batteries were garbage because no one put any serious R&D $ into it. If just a fraction of the R&D budgets of the top manufacturers had gone into battery tech, like it is now, I suspect ICE would have died decades ago.