EV Charging: On a council Estate.
Discussion
Hol said:
...
With regard to the OP, I think we need to wait until the government proposals to allow safe roadside or off-road parking for all. They clearly have some issues to work out as many housing estates aren’t set up for it.
What are they promising?With regard to the OP, I think we need to wait until the government proposals to allow safe roadside or off-road parking for all. They clearly have some issues to work out as many housing estates aren’t set up for it.
The problem is, if there's more parking, people get more cars, and park on the public road instead of their own drive, which they fill up with boats, caravans, motorhomes, 'project cars' etc etc.
You can maybe understand building lots of inner city places with not much parking, because a lot of people do actually manage to live in town without owning a motor vehicle.
But over the past few years, we've had a lot of new houses built in the sticks with very limited parking, no consideration for when these streets are full of families with offspring needing to drive to work. Near here there are developments of 3 and 4 bed houses built 20 to 25 years ago, a lot of families now have 3 or more cars and parking has gone bonkers compared to 5 years ago. Where I lived with my parents was like that back in the 80s, absolute carnage during uni holidays. Now it's looking half empty, lots of older people with one car on the drive.
But it seems to me that EVs may never be as cheap to own and run as today's sheds.
Perhaps people won't be able to clutter the streets with older cars that aren't used much the way they do now?
The average age of UK cars is something like 9 years. That must mean a big number of low budget bangers. Budgets which won't stretch to BEV?
Budgets which won't stretch to paying a sensible price for a parking/charging space?
Hol said:
I have seen something similar, but the incumbent owner refused to move, despite there being other less attractive spaces further away from the complex entrance.
When every space is EV capable, I would guess things will calm down.
With regard to the OP, I think we need to wait until the government proposals to allow safe roadside or off-road parking for all. They clearly have some issues to work out as many housing estates aren’t set up for it.
It's never going to happen. As pointed out above even with todays EV and charging technology the vast majority of people would only need a full charge once per week or less (200-250 miles), and even on a low speed 7kW charger that's 10 hours or so of charging per week, and on a 22kW < 4 hours.When every space is EV capable, I would guess things will calm down.
With regard to the OP, I think we need to wait until the government proposals to allow safe roadside or off-road parking for all. They clearly have some issues to work out as many housing estates aren’t set up for it.
As technology improves and we get more efficient and faster charging cars + more rapid public chargers that amount of charging time will continue to drop. There is absolutely no justification for every parking space needing to be able to charge a car, it would be a huge waste of money and effort as most would sit idle 95%+ of the time.
OutInTheShed said:
But it seems to me that EVs may never be as cheap to own and run as today's sheds.
It could be that we are at the peak of shed ownership, not going to deny that.But the reality is that EV's are simpler to both produce and maintain than ICE vehicles.
OutInTheShed said:
The average age of UK cars is something like 9 years. That must mean a big number of low budget bangers. Budgets which won't stretch to BEV?
Budgets which won't stretch to paying a sensible price for a parking/charging space?
This has been touched on many times before and it's getting quite boring tbh.Budgets which won't stretch to paying a sensible price for a parking/charging space?
The people running budget bangers now will still be able to run similar budget bangers in 20 or even 30 years. ICE cars are still being produced by all the known companies and will be for another decade. The earliest any company has stated to go full BEV is 2035 (!).
Now the big question is: what will a 2020 Tesla Model 3 (<50k GBP new) cost in 2035?
Do you think it'll still be worth GBP 15k? What about 2040?
There's been an artificial push towards EV's, and some other factors that have now broken both the new and second hand market. But eventually these vehicles will become cheap as well. People generally want new things and those who can afford them will get them as long as the manufacturers produce things we want to buy.
As for parking space. That's more to do with real estate. Just like a detached house with a driveway becomes a dream for most, having enough space in the street to buy a car can go down the same route.
As for charging, infrastructure is dead simple. Competition will bring prices down as low as they go because of low investments and low maintenance. Things like Lidl adding FoC chargers, but other chains will follow suit. I don't believe FoC will be the way forward, but if someone has a Tesco's card and knows he can charge his car there to last the week, with a proper discount/credit/points, that's great incentive for Tesco's to invest in such infrastructure. Ask any retail store if they'd be interested to make a little extra + ensure people spend more time in their store.
Even I'm guilty of that, when I pass an Ikea during lunch time I have lunch there. I've never done it before, but most of them boast free chargers over here. Even though they are "slow" chargers, which I know nets me less than GBP 5/h. I've never left the store without anything either.
Edited by ZesPak on Wednesday 29th June 08:15
SWoll said:
Hol said:
I have seen something similar, but the incumbent owner refused to move, despite there being other less attractive spaces further away from the complex entrance.
When every space is EV capable, I would guess things will calm down.
With regard to the OP, I think we need to wait until the government proposals to allow safe roadside or off-road parking for all. They clearly have some issues to work out as many housing estates aren’t set up for it.
It's never going to happen. As pointed out above even with todays EV and charging technology the vast majority of people would only need a full charge once per week or less (200-250 miles), and even on a low speed 7kW charger that's 10 hours or so of charging per week, and on a 22kW < 4 hours.When every space is EV capable, I would guess things will calm down.
With regard to the OP, I think we need to wait until the government proposals to allow safe roadside or off-road parking for all. They clearly have some issues to work out as many housing estates aren’t set up for it.
As technology improves and we get more efficient and faster charging cars + more rapid public chargers that amount of charging time will continue to drop. There is absolutely no justification for every parking space needing to be able to charge a car, it would be a huge waste of money and effort as most would sit idle 95%+ of the time.
Even just two four hour sessions per week is double the mileage of the average driver. And anyone needing extra can, because in denser areas a lot of people do minimal mileage and will only need a top up once a fortnight.
Anyone plugging in overnight can leave their car until the following morning.
The bay could be strictly for the vehicles that are registered too it, anyone else parking in it or over it gets fined/towed/clamped.
My Dad hates ATM’s & still prefers to pay by card in the petrol station kiosk...he’s going to need some training then.ZesPak said:
This has been touched on many times before and it's getting quite boring tbh.
The people running budget bangers now will still be able to run similar budget bangers in 20 or even 30 years. ICE cars are still being produced by all the known companies and will be for another decade. The earliest any company has stated to go full BEV is 2035 (!).
Now the big question is: what will a 2020 Tesla Model 3 (<50k GBP new) cost in 2035?
Do you think it'll still be worth GBP 15k? What about 2040?
There's been an artificial push towards EV's, and some other factors that have now broken both the new and second hand market. But eventually these vehicles will become cheap as well. People generally want new things and those who can afford them will get them as long as the manufacturers produce things we want to buy.
As for parking space. That's more to do with real estate. Just like a detached house with a driveway becomes a dream for most, having enough space in the street to buy a car can go down the same route.
As for charging, infrastructure is dead simple. Competition will bring prices down as low as they go because of low investments and low maintenance. Things like Lidl adding FoC chargers, but other chains will follow suit. I don't believe FoC will be the way forward, but if someone has a Tesco's card and knows he can charge his car there to last the week, with a proper discount/credit/points, that's great incentive for Tesco's to invest in such infrastructure. Ask any retail store if they'd be interested to make a little extra + ensure people spend more time in their store.
Even I'm guilty of that, when I pass an Ikea during lunch time I have lunch there. I've never done it before, but most of them boast free chargers over here. Even though they are "slow" chargers, which I know nets me less than GBP 5/h. I've never left the store without anything either.
Your 2020 Tesla may well have been recycled by 2035.The people running budget bangers now will still be able to run similar budget bangers in 20 or even 30 years. ICE cars are still being produced by all the known companies and will be for another decade. The earliest any company has stated to go full BEV is 2035 (!).
Now the big question is: what will a 2020 Tesla Model 3 (<50k GBP new) cost in 2035?
Do you think it'll still be worth GBP 15k? What about 2040?
There's been an artificial push towards EV's, and some other factors that have now broken both the new and second hand market. But eventually these vehicles will become cheap as well. People generally want new things and those who can afford them will get them as long as the manufacturers produce things we want to buy.
As for parking space. That's more to do with real estate. Just like a detached house with a driveway becomes a dream for most, having enough space in the street to buy a car can go down the same route.
As for charging, infrastructure is dead simple. Competition will bring prices down as low as they go because of low investments and low maintenance. Things like Lidl adding FoC chargers, but other chains will follow suit. I don't believe FoC will be the way forward, but if someone has a Tesco's card and knows he can charge his car there to last the week, with a proper discount/credit/points, that's great incentive for Tesco's to invest in such infrastructure. Ask any retail store if they'd be interested to make a little extra + ensure people spend more time in their store.
Even I'm guilty of that, when I pass an Ikea during lunch time I have lunch there. I've never done it before, but most of them boast free chargers over here. Even though they are "slow" chargers, which I know nets me less than GBP 5/h. I've never left the store without anything either.
Edited by ZesPak on Wednesday 29th June 08:15
Possibly having racked up an immense mileage as a taxi in its middle years.
Fact is there are not enough Teslas on the road today to cater for a shed market in 10 years' time.
Today's cheaper eVs will be worth a premium over IC in the 6-12 yr old car market due to running costs.
EV sheds will want charging almost every day.
We're already seeing this, people running bargain Leaves don't want to Leaf home with less than say 30 miles of their depleted 50 mile range, even if they're only going to the shops. The people who adopt them soonest in lower-end housing will be those who do a higher daily mileage, because those are the people who will save the most petrol and other costs. People only doing a few miles a week will have no persuasion to find the capital to buy an EV.
Reading people's experiences with the technocarp like lane assist and speed limit recognition, and the general increased complexity, I don't have huge faith in todays IC cars having long lives or being cheap to run at 10 years old
The price of things has always fluctuated. Maybe in the future it will cost comparitively more for an old car than today - it's normal that things evolve and change.
It doesn't mean something fixable is 'going wrong' with the market, it's just changing.
A lot of the modern tech loaded into cars is due to it being mandated here, or elsewhere the cars are sold. Another factor is that politically, no one is interested in helping cars hang around for twenty years, becoming steadily less efficient and less safe than newer cars.
For some people, a personal car may not be the affordable option in ten, twenty years time. I think the politicians are not minded against that either..
It doesn't mean something fixable is 'going wrong' with the market, it's just changing.
A lot of the modern tech loaded into cars is due to it being mandated here, or elsewhere the cars are sold. Another factor is that politically, no one is interested in helping cars hang around for twenty years, becoming steadily less efficient and less safe than newer cars.
For some people, a personal car may not be the affordable option in ten, twenty years time. I think the politicians are not minded against that either..
TheDeuce said:
The price of things has always fluctuated. Maybe in the future it will cost comparitively more for an old car than today - it's normal that things evolve and change.
It doesn't mean something fixable is 'going wrong' with the market, it's just changing.
A lot of the modern tech loaded into cars is due to it being mandated here, or elsewhere the cars are sold. Another factor is that politically, no one is interested in helping cars hang around for twenty years, becoming steadily less efficient and less safe than newer cars.
For some people, a personal car may not be the affordable option in ten, twenty years time. I think the politicians are not minded against that either..
Absolutely.It doesn't mean something fixable is 'going wrong' with the market, it's just changing.
A lot of the modern tech loaded into cars is due to it being mandated here, or elsewhere the cars are sold. Another factor is that politically, no one is interested in helping cars hang around for twenty years, becoming steadily less efficient and less safe than newer cars.
For some people, a personal car may not be the affordable option in ten, twenty years time. I think the politicians are not minded against that either..
The world is changing.
There is a huge political consensus in Europe and the UK about the path motoring and some other things will take.
TheDeuce said:
For some people, a personal car may not be the affordable option in ten, twenty years time. I think the politicians are not minded against that either..
Supporting many policy objectives and solving many problems. Car ownership will become a privilege (for the wealthy) not a right (for all)...Milkyway said:
They are good family homes, so that would increase when any of the children get their own cars in the future.
If there isn't the parking for more than 1 car per house, then I would argue that they are completely unsuitable for a modern family. Look at that nutter murdering his neighbours over a parking dispute. Or, less sensationalist, I see an awful lot of complaints (I work for a local authority highways dept) about people not having enough parking, or wanting permit/resident parking, and then when you investigate, you find this "normal" family has: Dad's works van, dad's weekend car, mum's 4x4, daughter's car, daughter's boyfriend's car (because they can't afford their own place), trailer/caravan/jet ski, and all in a house with a single driveway space and a garage full of crap. Repeat this over 4 or 5 houses and then the street is full, verges/footways littered with vehicles, and everyone is pissed off with each other. Now imagine those cars all needing chargers... It'd be like a snake's honeymoon.
(My apostrophes might or might not be wrong, I'm sure I'll make it on to the Spelling Police thread)
OnTheBreadline said:
Milkyway said:
They are good family homes, so that would increase when any of the children get their own cars in the future.
If there isn't the parking for more than 1 car per house, then I would argue that they are completely unsuitable for a modern family. Look at that nutter murdering his neighbours over a parking dispute. Or, less sensationalist, I see an awful lot of complaints (I work for a local authority highways dept) about people not having enough parking, or wanting permit/resident parking, and then when you investigate, you find this "normal" family has: Dad's works van, dad's weekend car, mum's 4x4, daughter's car, daughter's boyfriend's car (because they can't afford their own place), trailer/caravan/jet ski, and all in a house with a single driveway space and a garage full of crap. Repeat this over 4 or 5 houses and then the street is full, verges/footways littered with vehicles, and everyone is pissed off with each other. Now imagine those cars all needing chargers... It'd be like a snake's honeymoon.
(My apostrophes might or might not be wrong, I'm sure I'll make it on to the Spelling Police thread)
OutInTheShed said:
Your 2020 Tesla may well have been recycled by 2035.
Possibly having racked up an immense mileage as a taxi in its middle years.
Fact is there are not enough Teslas on the road today to cater for a shed market in 10 years' time.
Today's cheaper eVs will be worth a premium over IC in the 6-12 yr old car market due to running costs.
But are there enough cars? Is your complaint that too few people are buying new EV's now? Possibly having racked up an immense mileage as a taxi in its middle years.
Fact is there are not enough Teslas on the road today to cater for a shed market in 10 years' time.
Today's cheaper eVs will be worth a premium over IC in the 6-12 yr old car market due to running costs.
OutInTheShed said:
EV sheds will want charging almost every day.
We're already seeing this, people running bargain Leaves don't want to Leaf home with less than say 30 miles of their depleted 50 mile range, even if they're only going to the shops. The people who adopt them soonest in lower-end housing will be those who do a higher daily mileage, because those are the people who will save the most petrol and other costs. People only doing a few miles a week will have no persuasion to find the capital to buy an EV.
The original leaf had a range of 100km on a good day. The SR Tesla Model 3 I mentioned had 3x that. Even if that only has half the range left, that can easily cater to people doing 40K km/year. Hardly a comparison.We're already seeing this, people running bargain Leaves don't want to Leaf home with less than say 30 miles of their depleted 50 mile range, even if they're only going to the shops. The people who adopt them soonest in lower-end housing will be those who do a higher daily mileage, because those are the people who will save the most petrol and other costs. People only doing a few miles a week will have no persuasion to find the capital to buy an EV.
ZesPak said:
The original leaf had a range of 100km on a good day. The SR Tesla Model 3 I mentioned had 3x that. Even if that only has half the range left, that can easily cater to people doing 40K km/year. Hardly a comparison.
And there are cars in between.But unless things change a lot, there will be a shortage of used EVs.
Once your Tesla's battery has degraded to 50% of new, it doesn't have a long future. It won't be a great buy for someone doing 40k km a year, they won't get two years out of it.
Milkyway said:
Re ‘Council garages’;
Since they are too small for most modern cars, many have just become sheds / storage units.
Maybe... remove some of the garages & replace with them with charger points.
Since you mention it.. A while back we bought a 60's ex-council house to tidy up and rent out. Behind it there was an ugly collection of about 20 prefab garages with asbestos roofs, totally useless for parking a car in these days, as you say.Since they are too small for most modern cars, many have just become sheds / storage units.
Maybe... remove some of the garages & replace with them with charger points.
Edited by Milkyway on Wednesday 29th June 10:47
But joy! The council have indeed ripped them all out and resurfaced the area to be a large communal parking space, free for all. There are no charger bays in there yet (being realistic there are no EV's around there yet), but they could easily add enough over the years to accommodate communal charging for the ~50 odd homes that the car park caters for in the surrounding street.
The street parking situation has been alleviated by this improvement too.
In addition to this, the council are listening to increasing demands for permission and financial support to drop kerbs in the area and turn more front gardens into places to park a car. As owners of the house we're quite interested in that idea as it would add value today and certainly in the future as people desire the option to charge at home.
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