Are Electric Cars the biggest con on the planet?

[otolith]

Don’t just say it, show your working

[tamore]

otolith said:

Don’t just say it, show your working

aimed at me?

[otolith]

tamore said:

aimed at me?

Whirlybird.

He’s asserting things which contradict expert opinion, I’d like to see his numbers.

[tamore]

it's just tribal now, like most things are. even if you don't believe in human impact on the climate, burning stuff to power our civilisation is just a nonsense if we have an alternative. it's dirty, smelly and controlled by some pretty unsavoury regimes.

to add..... a bit of fun via burning stuff is ticketyboo.

Edited by tamore on Sunday 7th August 21:06

[delta0]

survivalist said:

delta0 said:

Gary C said:

98elise said:

explanation of how a motor with one moving part powered by electromagnetism (a fundamanta force) is trumped by fire

Simple

it just sounds and feels more FUN

Not so simple with the new 68dB noise regs coming in 2026 and noise cameras just being introduced it won’t be possible to have fun in an ICE.

Only new cars, the old ones can continue to be loud.

No unfortunately not. It’s not about the regulations for the car, it’s about stopping people making loud noises in built up areas. You go ragging a car past one of these they will trigger. They will set them higher than the regulated x dB at x rpm which the camera does not care about what rpm you were doing past it. They are cracking down on noise.

[jm8403]

delta0 said:

No unfortunately not. It’s not about the regulations for the car, it’s about stopping people making loud noises in built up areas. You go ragging a car past one of these they will trigger. They will set them higher than the regulated x dB at x rpm which the camera does not care about what rpm you were doing past it. They are cracking down on noise.

Great. I am absolutely sick to death of these popping and banging fkstick chavs.

[GT9]

OutInTheShed said:

Evanivitch said:

GT9 said:

and may even last the life of the motor. If not, the brushes (or carbon shoes more accurately) are easily accessible at the non-drive end of the motor.

It's BMW, I don't believe this for a second!

'Lasts the life of the motor', like BMW camchains last the life of the engine, because its life is over when the camchain fails?

I've known motors where brush failure causes local overheating and it's all downhill from there.
Better to change the brushes at X,000 hrs maybe?

The BMW arrangement is a slip ring set up with three self-lubricating carbon shoes spring-loaded onto a continuous copper ring, so it's not the same as typical arrangements with the brush striking several discontinuities every revolution.

I'm sure they've got pretty accurate data for wear rate, and whilst I don't actually know, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that it might get to 200,000 km before needing replacement.

Automotive duty cycle is actually very low in comparison to S1 duty in industrial applications, and it probably only needs to last 10,000 hours or less to get there.

Given how simple it would have been to avoid a brushed design, I find it very hard to believe they would sign off anything which might impact reliability or longevity of the main propulsion motor/s.

Here are some pretty pictures of it:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/bmw-ix-m60-brushed...

[D4rez]

delta0 said:

Gary C said:

98elise said:

explanation of how a motor with one moving part powered by electromagnetism (a fundamanta force) is trumped by fire

Simple

it just sounds and feels more FUN

Not so simple with the new 68dB noise regs coming in 2026 and noise cameras just being introduced it won’t be possible to have fun in an ICE.

Think a lot of people clinging to ICE haven't clocked this bit yet - between the ECE regs and the huwage particulate filters/catalysts cars will need you're not going to hear a peep out of an exhaust. Plus the binding CO2 glidepath already means it will be exceedingly rare/expensive to buy anything bigger than a turbo 4 banger (see new 4-cyl Hybrid Merc C63 for example of how this is going to go)

[Evanivitch]

GT9 said:

The BMW arrangement is a slip ring set up with three self-lubricating carbon shoes spring-loaded onto a continuous copper ring, so it's not the same as typical arrangements with the brush striking several discontinuities every revolution.

I'm sure they've got pretty accurate data for wear rate, and whilst I don't actually know, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that it might get to 200,000 km before needing replacement.

Automotive duty cycle is actually very low in comparison to S1 duty in industrial applications, and it probably only needs to last 10,000 hours or less to get there.

Given how simple it would have been to avoid a brushed design, I find it very hard to believe they would sign off anything which might impact reliability or longevity of the main propulsion motor/s.

Here are some pretty pictures of it:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/bmw-ix-m60-brushed...

Again, with reference to BMW's history with chain-cam engines it's quite difficult to accept their wear rate data.

[GT9]

Evanivitch said:

Again, with reference to BMW's history with chain-cam engines it's quite difficult to accept their wear rate data.

Righto. If you think thats comparable, who am I to argue.

There was a thread on this motor not 6 months ago.

The point was made in that thread that the brushes being use are relatively short, and that if wear was a problem, they could easily have been made longer with negligible cost impact.

This set-up has far more in common with rotor grounding brushes seen on various industrial motors and generators, and is far removed from a traditional commutator set-up you might see in a home appliance.

Grounding brushes for continuous operation might only be replaced every 5 years or 50,000 hours.

50,000 hours is going to see an automotive motor through to half a million miles our more.

I fully expect some will believe this is an intentional design FOR maintenance from BMW to keep their service centres busy...

Edited by GT9 on Sunday 7th August 23:37

[Gary C]

SWoll said:

delta0 said:

page3 said:

Personally, I don’t think you should be on Pistonheads unless you’ve owned a TVR. Extra points for an electric one.

Somewhat on topic, TVR is going electric from 2024

Yes, of course they are..

Brand new TVR's have been zero emissions for years

[survivalist]

delta0 said:

No unfortunately not. It’s not about the regulations for the car, it’s about stopping people making loud noises in built up areas. You go ragging a car past one of these they will trigger. They will set them higher than the regulated x dB at x rpm which the camera does not care about what rpm you were doing past it. They are cracking down on noise.

Sorry, I was referring to the noise regs. The ‘noise cameras’ I’ve got less of an issue with if they are deployed in residential areas.

Are EVs that much quieter? Apart from the pops and bangs brigade, it’s usually tyre noise that I hear rather than the 1.4 eco lump powering them.

[raspy]

survivalist said:

Sorry, I was referring to the noise regs. The ‘noise cameras’ I’ve got less of an issue with if they are deployed in residential areas.

Are EVs that much quieter? Apart from the pops and bangs brigade, it’s usually tyre noise that I hear rather than the 1.4 eco lump powering them.

"An EV without an AVAS is around 40dB at a low speed but even with one is only 54dB. When compared to the typical noise of a petrol or diesel car at around 80dB, a 38.8% reduction in noise is to be expected.

When compared to a truck or motorbike at around 93dB, there’s a 53% reduction in sound levels. This suggests some dramatic improvements following a move to EVs.

According to the World Health Organisation, noise is the second most harmful environmental factor to your health after air pollution. The leading contributor to noise pollution in the UK is traffic."

Source: https://www.vehiclecontracts.co.uk/blog/could-evs-...

[otolith]

Hmm, once cars are moving at any speed it's the tyre noise that becomes intrusive.

[98elise]

GT9 said:

Evanivitch said:

Again, with reference to BMW's history with chain-cam engines it's quite difficult to accept their wear rate data.

Righto. If you think thats comparable, who am I to argue.

There was a thread on this motor not 6 months ago.

The point was made in that thread that the brushes being use are relatively short, and that if wear was a problem, they could easily have been made longer with negligible cost impact.

This set-up has far more in common with rotor grounding brushes seen on various industrial motors and generators, and is far removed from a traditional commutator set-up you might see in a home appliance.

Grounding brushes for continuous operation might only be replaced every 5 years or 50,000 hours.

50,000 hours is going to see an automotive motor through to half a million miles our more.

I fully expect some will believe this is an intentional design FOR maintenance from BMW to keep their service centres busy...

Edited by GT9 on Sunday 7th August 23:37

I agree with you. This is mature technology, and even commutator motors which arc and spark in operation rarely need brush replacement.

Electric motors are hardy. If you work in a reasonable sized office there are hundreds of motors running day in day out for hours on end with almost zero maintenance.

[GT9]

raspy said:

"An EV without an AVAS is around 40dB at a low speed but even with one is only 54dB. When compared to the typical noise of a petrol or diesel car at around 80dB, a 38.8% reduction in noise is to be expected.

When compared to a truck or motorbike at around 93dB, there’s a 53% reduction in sound levels. This suggests some dramatic improvements following a move to EVs.

According to the World Health Organisation, noise is the second most harmful environmental factor to your health after air pollution. The leading contributor to noise pollution in the UK is traffic."

Source: https://www.vehiclecontracts.co.uk/blog/could-evs-...

Whoever wrote the doesn't understand that the decibel scale is logarithmic and not linear.

[Ardennes92]

otolith said:

Hmm, once cars are moving at any speed it's the tyre noise that becomes intrusive.

Along with the whine of the motor

[soupdragon1]

GT9 said:

Righto. If you think thats comparable, who am I to argue.

There was a thread on this motor not 6 months ago.

The point was made in that thread that the brushes being use are relatively short, and that if wear was a problem, they could easily have been made longer with negligible cost impact.

This set-up has far more in common with rotor grounding brushes seen on various industrial motors and generators, and is far removed from a traditional commutator set-up you might see in a home appliance.

Grounding brushes for continuous operation might only be replaced every 5 years or 50,000 hours.

50,000 hours is going to see an automotive motor through to half a million miles our more.

I fully expect some will believe this is an intentional design FOR maintenance from BMW to keep their service centres busy...

Edited by GT9 on Sunday 7th August 23:37

50k hrs at 30mph average speed would get you 1.5m miles. Or at 10k miles per annum, 150 years.

[delta0]

survivalist said:

delta0 said:

No unfortunately not. It’s not about the regulations for the car, it’s about stopping people making loud noises in built up areas. You go ragging a car past one of these they will trigger. They will set them higher than the regulated x dB at x rpm which the camera does not care about what rpm you were doing past it. They are cracking down on noise.

Sorry, I was referring to the noise regs. The ‘noise cameras’ I’ve got less of an issue with if they are deployed in residential areas.

Are EVs that much quieter? Apart from the pops and bangs brigade, it’s usually tyre noise that I hear rather than the 1.4 eco lump powering them.

Depends on the speed. Peak noise is 67-72 dB for a tyre. Many performance cars in stock form will significantly exceed noise levels that will trigger the camera. The noise regs are only for a set rpm. Enthusiastic driving will become harder for ICE and being able to enjoy anything other than a synthetic sound piped through the speakers is all that will be possible.

Edited by delta0 on Monday 8th August 10:22

[whirlybird]

otolith said:

Whirlybird.

He’s asserting things which contradict expert opinion, I’d like to see his numbers.

For somebody who has provided nearly 49.000 postings,
you have far far too much time on your hands, go hug a tree.!!!!!