Are Electric Cars the biggest con on the planet?
Discussion
People who buy (or lease) new cars generally don't mean to keep them for more than three years or so - and most will be protected from residual risk by a lease or PCP arrangement. So there is no reason to worry about there being something better available in a few years, you'll just upgrade next time around.
SteveKTMer said:
The primary benefit of longer range isn't enabling people to do 500 miles a day, or even lighter cars, although those would be welcome benefits, it's a partial solution to the fact that the charging network is not being developed fast enough to keep up with demand now, let alone with predicted future demand for BEVs.
If a BEV can do double the distance and recharge in the same time as it takes now, that is a massive benefit and would make a BEV much more practical, probably a realistic alternative to a long range diesel for almost everybody.
Let's not forget people who can't charge at home - a 500 mile range and fast charging makes a BEV viable without home charging. This might mean only charging once a week which is tolerable, especially if you're trying to keep charging below the 80% point. Brings the usage pattern on a par with an ICE car which is ideal, opens up the possibility of BEV to many more people.
That's a once per week charge for a driver covering 25k+ miles per year. If you consider that tolerable than a once a week charge in a 250 miles EV would still offer 12.5k+ miles per year, which based on what we know about the usage of the vast majority is more than enough?If a BEV can do double the distance and recharge in the same time as it takes now, that is a massive benefit and would make a BEV much more practical, probably a realistic alternative to a long range diesel for almost everybody.
Let's not forget people who can't charge at home - a 500 mile range and fast charging makes a BEV viable without home charging. This might mean only charging once a week which is tolerable, especially if you're trying to keep charging below the 80% point. Brings the usage pattern on a par with an ICE car which is ideal, opens up the possibility of BEV to many more people.
The number of drivers who are doing 500 miles a week and are also unable to charge at home must be vanishingly small?
NDA said:
I was watching Harry's Garage last night and enjoyed the review of the BMW B3 Alpina. I was surprised to learn it's heavier than a Tesla.
All this talk of EV's being the weight of lorries and ruining our lovely roads.
Batteries weigh more than a complete car All this talk of EV's being the weight of lorries and ruining our lovely roads.
Tesla car battery weight:
Roadster: 992 lbs (450 kg).
Model 3 Standard Range: 1054 lbs (478 kg).
Model 3 Long Range: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model Y: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model S: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
Model X: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
Austin Mini-Seven ADO15 Kerb weight (without driver): 585 kg / 1290 lbs
https://themotordigest.com/how-much-do-tesla-batte...
https://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1959/31160/...
TheRainMaker said:
It would be much more covenant though, wouldn't it?
If you can't charge at home you would only need to find somewhere to charge once a month instead of every week.
If you go on a long trip you wouldn't have to charge on the journey.
When the household has two or three EVs you wouldn't be fighting over the one charger so often.
I don't see a downside to having a larger battery TBH.
Except weight and cost...If you can't charge at home you would only need to find somewhere to charge once a month instead of every week.
If you go on a long trip you wouldn't have to charge on the journey.
When the household has two or three EVs you wouldn't be fighting over the one charger so often.
I don't see a downside to having a larger battery TBH.
bigothunter said:
Batteries weigh more than a complete car
Tesla car battery weight:
Roadster: 992 lbs (450 kg).
Model 3 Standard Range: 1054 lbs (478 kg).
Model 3 Long Range: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model Y: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model S: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
Model X: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
Austin Mini-Seven ADO15 Kerb weight (without driver): 585 kg / 1290 lbs
https://themotordigest.com/how-much-do-tesla-batte...
https://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1959/31160/...
Tesla car battery weight:
Roadster: 992 lbs (450 kg).
Model 3 Standard Range: 1054 lbs (478 kg).
Model 3 Long Range: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model Y: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model S: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
Model X: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
Austin Mini-Seven ADO15 Kerb weight (without driver): 585 kg / 1290 lbs
https://themotordigest.com/how-much-do-tesla-batte...
https://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1959/31160/...
Puzzles said:
bigothunter said:
Batteries weigh more than a complete car
Tesla car battery weight:
Roadster: 992 lbs (450 kg).
Model 3 Standard Range: 1054 lbs (478 kg).
Model 3 Long Range: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model Y: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model S: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
Model X: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
Austin Mini-Seven ADO15 Kerb weight (without driver): 585 kg / 1290 lbs
https://themotordigest.com/how-much-do-tesla-batte...
https://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1959/31160/...
Tesla car battery weight:
Roadster: 992 lbs (450 kg).
Model 3 Standard Range: 1054 lbs (478 kg).
Model 3 Long Range: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model Y: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model S: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
Model X: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
Austin Mini-Seven ADO15 Kerb weight (without driver): 585 kg / 1290 lbs
https://themotordigest.com/how-much-do-tesla-batte...
https://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1959/31160/...
BMW 5 series - 2,035 kg
Model S - 2,250 kg
TheRainMaker said:
bigothunter said:
Except weight and cost...
That is the point of this new tech, cheaper and lighter than what we have now, four times of you believe was is written in the report.Extra weight inherently increases cost because many components need to get bigger and stronger. Knock on effect is even more cost.
After low hanging fruit (eg delete spare wheel), weight reduction rapidly becomes exponentially more expensive.
There is no substitute for getting the fundamentals right: ref Issigonis, Chapman and Murray. Unfortunately EVs start from a base of high weight and cost which demands a recovery plan.
Pixelpeep Electric said:
Shall we have some context around the numbers ?
BMW 5 series - 2,035 kg
Model S - 2,250 kg
How much would 5 Series weigh if BMW had no choice but make the investment and engineering effort involved to keep weight in check?BMW 5 series - 2,035 kg
Model S - 2,250 kg
With Model S batteries weighing no less than 625 kg, Tesla had no choice but pay keen attention to expensive weight reduction measures elsewhere in the product.
To maintain context, must compare apple with apples...
I was making the point that a Tesla 3 (for example) weighs about the same (or is lighter) than a 3 series BMW - which is more of a comparison than say a Mini.
Some ICE Mini's are probably heavier than a Fiat 500e.
Does it matter? Probably not, but there's an awful lot of frothing about EV's, usually from non owners, about chunking through brakes, tyres, tarmac, volts, Cobalt miners or whatever.
I have both - enjoy both for their different virtues.
Some ICE Mini's are probably heavier than a Fiat 500e.
Does it matter? Probably not, but there's an awful lot of frothing about EV's, usually from non owners, about chunking through brakes, tyres, tarmac, volts, Cobalt miners or whatever.
I have both - enjoy both for their different virtues.
bigothunter said:
Pixelpeep Electric said:
Shall we have some context around the numbers ?
BMW 5 series - 2,035 kg
Model S - 2,250 kg
How much would 5 Series weigh if BMW had no choice but make the investment and engineering effort involved to keep weight in check?BMW 5 series - 2,035 kg
Model S - 2,250 kg
With Model S batteries weighing no less than 625 kg, Tesla had no choice but pay keen attention to expensive weight reduction measures elsewhere in the product.
To maintain context, must compare apple with apples...
Realistically, for normal motorists on normal roads, there's bugger-all relevant difference between a 2 ton car and a 2.2 ton car.
Except when slowing down, when the heavy ICE wastes all its kinetic energy, and the heavy EV recovers 70% of it.
bigothunter said:
Pixelpeep Electric said:
Shall we have some context around the numbers ?
BMW 5 series - 2,035 kg
Model S - 2,250 kg
How much would 5 Series weigh if BMW had no choice but make the investment and engineering effort involved to keep weight in check?BMW 5 series - 2,035 kg
Model S - 2,250 kg
With Model S batteries weighing no less than 625 kg, Tesla had no choice but pay keen attention to expensive weight reduction measures elsewhere in the product.
To maintain context, must compare apple with apples...
Apples with apples is how much do they both weight now.
Pixelpeep Electric said:
apples with apples is not 'how much would an apple weigh if mother nature concentrated in reducing the weight of the other apple"
Apples with apples is how much do they both weight now.
Apples with apples is whether the same engineering development priorities and extra product cost are appropriate to both BMW to Tesla.Apples with apples is how much do they both weight now.
They aren't...
Or in other words, BMW could significantly reduce weight of their 5 Series if market pressures so demanded.
They don't...
bigothunter said:
Pixelpeep Electric said:
apples with apples is not 'how much would an apple weigh if mother nature concentrated in reducing the weight of the other apple"
Apples with apples is how much do they both weight now.
Apples with apples is whether the same engineering development priorities and extra product cost are appropriate to both BMW to Tesla.Apples with apples is how much do they both weight now.
They aren't...
Or in other words, BMW could significantly reduce weight of their 5 Series if market pressures so demanded.
They don't...
If BMW stuffed it with sexy lightweight composites, saved 250kg, and charged accordingly, then they'd sell fewer cars and make less money.
The obsession with weight is a 'car guy' thing, and 95% of those 'car guys' go on to lease an Audi A6 anyway.
R Mutt said:
At least this is cheap when those who can't afford a Taycan are eventually forced to drive something from a dystopian sci-fi film
Renault Twizy, Citroen Ami and Wuling Hongguang Mini EV are showing the way forward in a divided BEV market.Manufactured in low labour cost territories (principally Asia but also Spain, Turkey and Eastern Europe), these cheap products make sound marketing and business sense. A route to generating interest in cars from the disillusioned younger generation.
bigothunter said:
The need for low mass (and associated high efficiency) is a fundamental engineering principle.
The effect of mass on in-use energy efficiency has been very much diminished by the use of regenerative hybrid and EV powertrains. It's still there, but much less important when you're throwing away 30% of your kinetic energy under braking rather than 100% of it. Low frontal area and Cd more relevant. bigothunter said:
Pixelpeep Electric said:
apples with apples is not 'how much would an apple weigh if mother nature concentrated in reducing the weight of the other apple"
Apples with apples is how much do they both weight now.
Apples with apples is whether the same engineering development priorities and extra product cost are appropriate to both BMW to Tesla.Apples with apples is how much do they both weight now.
They aren't...
Or in other words, BMW could significantly reduce weight of their 5 Series if market pressures so demanded.
They don't...
Seriously?
If tesla invested more in weight reduction their cars would be lighter too, right?
I'm not going to debate what manufactures could do vs what some are doing currently.
Facts - the 5 series and the model S are 200kgs apart.
This will be my last response to you regarding this point.
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