Are Electric Cars the biggest con on the planet?

[GT9]

Nomme de Plum said:

However we must not allow the fossil fuel industry to behave like the tobacco industry did decades ago.

Selling diesel to kids?

[bigothunter]

whirlybird said:

I recall a customer of mine who had a then brand new Mercedes A Class (1st Generation) the reg was 'A14 ELK'

Only in theory...

[DMZ]

Nomme de Plum said:

It is really important that whatever materials we extract, mine or manufacture that we do this as sustainably as possible and not leave any residue that negatively impacts our planet.

However the extraction of coal and other minerals like tin previously, then oil have had many negative impacts on the people working in those industries, the localities and environment more generally. Maybe a number of posters are too young to remember some really bad disasters and also life shortening illnesses caused by these industries.

We understand more now so there is little excuse to carry on without taking sustainability into account. We cannot allow ourselves to be selective on which evidence we choose to believe.

I believe on the evidence so far EV's are more sustainable than ICEs but this should not be taken for granted. However we must not allow the fossil fuel industry to behave like the tobacco industry did decades ago.

Firstly I'm delighted that people care and the more of that the better.

But we do do plenty of bad things already and we also do business with people that I would very much not want to give money to every time I fill my V8 or power my home or EV so there is a benchmark that is pretty low at the moment. Generally because we don't really have a choice and/or because we're drawn to low prices. I would suggest we should get better but we don't need to take an enormous leap with EVs just because. I don't really see the correlation tbh. It's another "thing" that we're buying and like every other "thing" that we buy, we should think about the consequences. Some think of this more than others and I'm probably at the not thinking so much about it end of the scale tbh.

[alcatrazarmando]

If it was not for the science you wouldnt even know anything was wrong with the planet - it looks like it is all kicking off now and it will only get worse - would not be surprised if someone gets killed amongst the mayhem

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11910455/...

EVs have around half a tonne of batteries per vehicle, how on earth do people think these things are saving the planet? Combustion engine cars in the UK are responsible for less than 1 percent of global greenhouse gases so theres absolutely no need to heckle the average tax payer and make them responsible, its not like the well heeled will be impacted by anything going on.

One of the reasons I never trust a politician, unfortuantely they are the same the world over - pay them sufficent wedge and they will work for anyone

[SpeckledJim]

alcatrazarmando said:

If it was not for the science you wouldnt even know anything was wrong with the planet - it looks like it is all kicking off now and it will only get worse - would not be surprised if someone gets killed amongst the mayhem

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11910455/...

EVs have around half a tonne of batteries per vehicle, how on earth do people think these things are saving the planet? Combustion engine cars in the UK are responsible for less than 1 percent of global greenhouse gases so theres absolutely no need to heckle the average tax payer and make them responsible, its not like the well heeled will be impacted by anything going on.

One of the reasons I never trust a politician, unfortuantely they are the same the world over - pay them sufficent wedge and they will work for anyone

You're not Pan Pan Pan, are you?

Bet you know whether 34 or 10 is bigger, don't you.

[GT9]

SpeckledJim said:

alcatrazarmando said:

If it was not for the science you wouldnt even know anything was wrong with the planet - it looks like it is all kicking off now and it will only get worse - would not be surprised if someone gets killed amongst the mayhem

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11910455/...

EVs have around half a tonne of batteries per vehicle, how on earth do people think these things are saving the planet? Combustion engine cars in the UK are responsible for less than 1 percent of global greenhouse gases so theres absolutely no need to heckle the average tax payer and make them responsible, its not like the well heeled will be impacted by anything going on.

One of the reasons I never trust a politician, unfortuantely they are the same the world over - pay them sufficent wedge and they will work for anyone

You're not Pan Pan Pan, are you?

Bet you know whether 34 or 10 is bigger, don't you.

Careful now, he reads the Mail.

Bonafide 5 minute expert.

You should listen to what he has to say.

If you wouldn't mind dropping in a question about kinetic energy recovery systems from me, that'd be swell.

[SpeckledJim]

GT9 said:

SpeckledJim said:

alcatrazarmando said:

If it was not for the science you wouldnt even know anything was wrong with the planet - it looks like it is all kicking off now and it will only get worse - would not be surprised if someone gets killed amongst the mayhem

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11910455/...

EVs have around half a tonne of batteries per vehicle, how on earth do people think these things are saving the planet? Combustion engine cars in the UK are responsible for less than 1 percent of global greenhouse gases so theres absolutely no need to heckle the average tax payer and make them responsible, its not like the well heeled will be impacted by anything going on.

One of the reasons I never trust a politician, unfortuantely they are the same the world over - pay them sufficent wedge and they will work for anyone

You're not Pan Pan Pan, are you?

Bet you know whether 34 or 10 is bigger, don't you.

Careful now, he reads the Mail.

Bonafide 5 minute expert.

You should listen to what he has to say.

If you wouldn't mind dropping in a question about kinetic energy recovery systems from me, that'd be swell.

Gee, Ah dohn no about no Kenny Tettic ener thingummies, but I do no 'bout life, and no politician gonna tell me nuttun

You all nummers and stuff an its confusin but I no wot ah no and thats good enough four me.

[NDA]

AstonZagato said:

The Musk fanbois were adamant that they would happily send their cars off to earn for them while they worked or slept. .

To which the answer, with a faint and condescending smile, has to be, "of course, my Tesla doesn't have to work".

[whirlybird]

bigothunter said:

whirlybird said:

I recall a customer of mine who had a then brand new Mercedes A Class (1st Generation) the reg was 'A14 ELK'

Only in theory...

??? The gist of the post was regarding cars that fell over, hence the reference to the failed Elk Test by the then new A-Class Merc !!!!!

[Nomme de Plum]

GT9 said:

Nomme de Plum said:

However we must not allow the fossil fuel industry to behave like the tobacco industry did decades ago.

Selling diesel to kids?

To lie blatantly and hide evidence that they had how harmful cigarettes were and are to both the smoker and anyone else subjected to said smoke.

Investment tax reliefs should only be given to sustainable energy production.

[Nomme de Plum]

DMZ said:

Firstly I'm delighted that people care and the more of that the better.

But we do do plenty of bad things already and we also do business with people that I would very much not want to give money to every time I fill my V8 or power my home or EV so there is a benchmark that is pretty low at the moment. Generally because we don't really have a choice and/or because we're drawn to low prices. I would suggest we should get better but we don't need to take an enormous leap with EVs just because. I don't really see the correlation tbh. It's another "thing" that we're buying and like every other "thing" that we buy, we should think about the consequences. Some think of this more than others and I'm probably at the not thinking so much about it end of the scale tbh.

The EV thing is just a small step and in any case will not be instant. The government should be persuading us to change and facilitating as well. There is no reason why some limited grants could not be given to local authorities to provide recharge point run at zero profit.

The government talks the talk but is pertaining not walking the walk.

People should not be cajoled but helped to make a change.

I see this as a 25 year change anyway.

We are paying heavily through health issues for continued high pollution in our cities. We did not know before but it would be quite shameful to knowingly continue causing actual harm to our city dwelling children.

[Nomme de Plum]

alcatrazarmando said:

If it was not for the science you wouldnt even know anything was wrong with the planet - it looks like it is all kicking off now and it will only get worse - would not be surprised if someone gets killed amongst the mayhem

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11910455/...

EVs have around half a tonne of batteries per vehicle, how on earth do people think these things are saving the planet? Combustion engine cars in the UK are responsible for less than 1 percent of global greenhouse gases so theres absolutely no need to heckle the average tax payer and make them responsible, its not like the well heeled will be impacted by anything going on.

One of the reasons I never trust a politician, unfortuantely they are the same the world over - pay them sufficent wedge and they will work for anyone

Do you understand what pollution does to to or city inhabitants and in particular the negative impact on children's brain development? The costs through life are paid by us all.

[silent ninja]

Nomme de Plum said:

SpeckledJim said:

silent ninja said:

Motion sickness is a real thing with autonomous cars.

How does it differ from being a passenger in a normal car?

I was wondering this too. Or in the poster's example being Chauffeured.

The market idea is that an autonomous car becomes a place of leisure or work. So it's transformed into a mobile office, or a recliner with cinema screens. When you're a passenger today you tend to sit up, maybe play on your phone but generally you look out the window. When there are no windows or an internal environment designed for something else like work, nausea and motion sickness are pronounced in a lot of people.

Some manufacturers are playing with strip lights and screens to mimick motion and mitigate this issue.

Many people can't sleep in a moving car. If the idea is to autonomously and cheaply drive you 800 miles across the country/continent, I remain sceptical.

There was a report a few months back that suggested autonomous cars would massively reduce the average speed and increase traffic in the UK. So journeys take longer.

Anyway, lots and lots of speculation. People like to own things, especially their personal space. People like to be in control. Anything can happen but humans being ferried around in pods is an idea we've adopted from sci-fi movies. Isn't there a big push for 10 minute cities?

[poo at Paul's]

Nomme de Plum said:

Do you understand what pollution does to to or city inhabitants and in particular the negative impact on children's brain development? The costs through life are paid by us all.

Nope. It’s bks that people suck up and regurgitate. I can only guess you’ve never been or lived in an actual polluted city, there are non in UK and Europe.
Go stick your finger up the exhaust of a 10 year old diesel euro 4 even with 100k miles and it will come out clean.
Stick everyone in euro 5 and euro 6 diesels and you’d not notice the difference to everyone in an EV.

[Nomme de Plum]

Most of my working life in London.

Do you consider tobacco smoke to be deleterious to children?

[DonkeyApple]

AstonZagato said:

I agree with your point about personal space. When Musk was trying to hype his hoax "robotaxi" concept in order to pump the Tesla share price, this argument raged on the "Telsa going bust" thread on here. The Musk fanbois were adamant that they would happily send their cars off to earn for them while they worked or slept. Others, including me, argued that cleaning vomit (or other bodily fluids) out of the car before commuting to work was not what we'd ever want to do. Nor would we want our car at the other side of the city at the exact moment we needed it unexpectedly. Nor would we want the wear and tear, slashed upholstery, scuffs and dents. I can see that one might buy a Tesla (or a fleet) only to send it off to work but not one's personal car.

An awful lot of people happily live in filth and an awful lot will do anything for a bit of money.

Ergo, while the idea of putting one's car on the game like some scabby pimp might repulse you and I along with many others, Musk revealed that there are no shortage of shabby punters out there.

The error Musk did make and you can't blame him as he isn't human so you wouldn't expect home to understand some human traits is that if a car is programmed to give way to a human then a human will make it give way to them. It's the second fundamental reason why autonomy will require segregation, the first being that it really isn't anywhere near as competent as even a damaged and simple human brain.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Tuesday 28th March 19:52

[Nomme de Plum]

silent ninja said:

The market idea is that an autonomous car becomes a place of leisure or work. So it's transformed into a mobile office, or a recliner with cinema screens. When you're a passenger today you tend to sit up, maybe play on your phone but generally you look out the window. When there are no windows or an internal environment designed for something else like work, nausea and motion sickness are pronounced in a lot of people.

Some manufacturers are playing with strip lights and screens to mimick motion and mitigate this issue.

Many people can't sleep in a moving car. If the idea is to autonomously and cheaply drive you 800 miles across the country/continent, I remain sceptical.

There was a report a few months back that suggested autonomous cars would massively reduce the average speed and increase traffic in the UK. So journeys take longer.

Anyway, lots and lots of speculation. People like to own things, especially their personal space. People like to be in control. Anything can happen but humans being ferried around in pods is an idea we've adopted from sci-fi movies. Isn't there a big push for 10 minute cities?

Back in the day some of us commuted on a coach. Some of us worked or read a book others simply could not. I don't get sea sick either btw.

I see this as no difference.

I cannot see why autonomous cars would slow traffic as their action would be so much better than an individual and in any case the vehicles would communicate with each other so I do not understand the logic of slower travel.

Assuming one is control when driving is huge and risky assumption. Very few drivers are anticipatory most are reactive and this can be seen every day.

[Dingu]

alcatrazarmando said:

If it was not for the science you wouldnt even know anything was wrong with the planet - it looks like it is all kicking off now and it will only get worse - would not be surprised if someone gets killed amongst the mayhem

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11910455/...

EVs have around half a tonne of batteries per vehicle, how on earth do people think these things are saving the planet? Combustion engine cars in the UK are responsible for less than 1 percent of global greenhouse gases so theres absolutely no need to heckle the average tax payer and make them responsible, its not like the well heeled will be impacted by anything going on.

One of the reasons I never trust a politician, unfortuantely they are the same the world over - pay them sufficent wedge and they will work for anyone

Fortunately science doesn’t require you to believe it to be scientific fact.

[Dingu]

poo at Paul's said:

Nope. It’s bks that people suck up and regurgitate. I can only guess you’ve never been or lived in an actual polluted city, there are non in UK and Europe.
Go stick your finger up the exhaust of a 10 year old diesel euro 4 even with 100k miles and it will come out clean.
Stick everyone in euro 5 and euro 6 diesels and you’d not notice the difference to everyone in an EV.

Bit like having your house on fire and being told don’t worry, the one a couple of miles away is bigger so we aren’t coming to help.

It’s demonstrably factual that cities are much more polluted than less populated areas and traffic has much to do with this. To deny that is to be wilfully ignorant.

As I said to another poster happily things like this are true regardless of whether you choose to believe it. Like gravity.

[Nomme de Plum]

Dingu said:

Bit like having your house on fire and being told don’t worry, the one a couple of miles away is bigger so we aren’t coming to help.

It’s demonstrably factual that cities are much more polluted than less populated areas and traffic has much to do with this. To deny that is to be wilfully ignorant.

As I said to another poster happily things like this are true regardless of whether you choose to believe it. Like gravity.

Sometimes you have to hope that poster does not actually belive in the words they write but are just trying to be a bit contrary or controversial.

The alternative is more concerning.