Slump in EV sales on it's way?

[ashenfie]

otolith said:

ashenfie said:

The real issue is that the government taxes petrol to death and where is that income going to come from in the future if we have all gone EV?

Corporation tax, income tax, national insurance, VAT, inheritance tax…

Realistically thats not going to happen, We already talking about reducing all these taxes with the exception of perhaps inheritance tax, I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

[Frimley111R]

ashenfie said:

...., I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

Pollical suicide though. It's been mentioned before but the backlash would be epic...

[otolith]

ashenfie said:

Realistically thats not going to happen, We already talking about reducing all these taxes with the exception of perhaps inheritance tax, I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

There is no intrinsic reason why personal transport must be a cash-cow for the treasury.

[ashenfie]

otolith said:

ashenfie said:

Realistically thats not going to happen, We already talking about reducing all these taxes with the exception of perhaps inheritance tax, I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

There is no intrinsic reason why personal transport must be a cash-cow for the treasury.

Agree, but we have accepted that collecting tax for using roads is legitimate, even if they don't fix them.

[Sheepshanks]

Frimley111R said:

ashenfie said:

...., I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

Pollical suicide though. It's been mentioned before but the backlash would be epic...

...it's already there.

[OutInTheShed]

Frimley111R said:

ashenfie said:

...., I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

Pollical suicide though. It's been mentioned before but the backlash would be epic...

I doubt it.
The backlash wasn't really epic for the congestion charge or LEZ schemes.
Or for parking charges on residential streets.

People will accept other flavours of road pricing in the same way.

[TheDeuce]

OutInTheShed said:

Frimley111R said:

ashenfie said:

...., I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

Pollical suicide though. It's been mentioned before but the backlash would be epic...

I doubt it.
The backlash wasn't really epic for the congestion charge or LEZ schemes.
Or for parking charges on residential streets.

People will accept other flavours of road pricing in the same way.

It's different, it's not about the tax itself, it's about the erosion of privacy - people don't want to be tracked.

[DMZ]

It seems quite easy to justify a low emissions zone and we've been conditioned to accept CO2-based taxation for various good reasons. But then taxing the solution to those problems will be less easy I suspect even if I'm sure it's coming in some shape or form.

[ashenfie]

TheDeuce said:

OutInTheShed said:

Frimley111R said:

ashenfie said:

...., I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

Pollical suicide though. It's been mentioned before but the backlash would be epic...

I doubt it.
The backlash wasn't really epic for the congestion charge or LEZ schemes.
Or for parking charges on residential streets.

People will accept other flavours of road pricing in the same way.

It's different, it's not about the tax itself, it's about the erosion of privacy - people don't want to be tracked.

My Mini and last BMW post had mobile phone chips within them i.e find my car feature. So I think we are already there

[carl_w]

ashenfie said:

My Mini and last BMW post had mobile phone chips within them i.e find my car feature. So I think we are already there

I think all new cars have SIMs in them now for the eCall function that calls the emergency services in the event of a serious crash.

[TheDeuce]

ashenfie said:

TheDeuce said:

OutInTheShed said:

Frimley111R said:

ashenfie said:

...., I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

Pollical suicide though. It's been mentioned before but the backlash would be epic...

I doubt it.
The backlash wasn't really epic for the congestion charge or LEZ schemes.
Or for parking charges on residential streets.

People will accept other flavours of road pricing in the same way.

It's different, it's not about the tax itself, it's about the erosion of privacy - people don't want to be tracked.

My Mini and last BMW post had mobile phone chips within them i.e find my car feature. So I think we are already there

That not the same either, yes it's already possible to track and remotely monitor modern cars - but that's closed loop data between the car and it's owner. It's completely different to having a centralised department of the civil service recording every trip you make, and the speed you made that trip at...

[Bo_apex]

TheDeuce said:

That not the same either, yes it's already possible to track and remotely monitor modern cars - but that's closed loop data between the car and it's owner. It's completely different to having a centralised department of the civil service recording every trip you make, and the speed you made that trip at...

ULEZ is already a step towards full tracking.

Everyone loves Sadiq Khan for it

[Ardennes92]

TheDeuce said:

SWoll said:

lemmingjames said:

TheRainMaker said:

I can see in three years, all the tax benefits being removed, road fund licensing to be introduced linked to the purchase price of the car, and duty on public charging.

It already is, 2024 the tax benefits are to be removed unless the government changes its mind.

I was of he opinion the 2% BIK rate on EV's was with us until 2025 and I've seen no mention of what it might jump to from that point? That's the big driver for EV sales as above, company cars.

Indeed. Although assuming that BIK rate does start to ramp up and it becomes as pointless to put an EV through the company as it is for any other car these days, I think I'd still find the budget to pay for one privately. I don't look forward to that day as it's going to be thousands more per year for the same car... But it would be very difficult to move back to a lesser car tbh.

I think that as people get used to EV's and drive a few, they will prove desirable enough for a significant number of people to continue to find ways to make them affordable. A bit like smartphones, most people aren't buying the cheapest models, despite them being more than good enough. Even during tough times people generally find the money for what they desire most.

Maybe that is what should be done, remove all CC schemes and any ev subsidies and put money into infrastructure which benefits all ev users not just the chosen few; after all we are on the roll down of ice over the next few years.

[SWoll]

TheDeuce said:

It's different, it's not about the tax itself, it's about the erosion of privacy - people don't want to be tracked.

Yet we all carry mobile phones with us everywhere we go..

[NMNeil]

ashenfie said:

Realistically thats not going to happen, We already talking about reducing all these taxes with the exception of perhaps inheritance tax, I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

It may have escaped your notice but since last month all new cars sold automatically come with a black box as part of the ISA system.
I know the speed limiter part hasn't been approved in the UK yet, just in the EU, but I believe the data recorder is already being used.

[Frimley111R]

SWoll said:

TheDeuce said:

It's different, it's not about the tax itself, it's about the erosion of privacy - people don't want to be tracked.

Yet we all carry mobile phones with us everywhere we go..

Not the same either. What if the government asked you to put their App on your phone so that they knew where you were all the time for the purpose of keeping tabs on you?

[TheDeuce]

Bo_apex said:

TheDeuce said:

That not the same either, yes it's already possible to track and remotely monitor modern cars - but that's closed loop data between the car and it's owner. It's completely different to having a centralised department of the civil service recording every trip you make, and the speed you made that trip at...

ULEZ is already a step towards full tracking.

Everyone loves Sadiq Khan for it

That's true, although most people don't live in such areas where that type of tracking exists - and certainly those that do didn't take kindly to it originally - and those are people that can at least be convinced it's for their own good (less congestion, better air quality for their kids etc..), even then, it was and remains unpopular.

Having a box in your car that reports your every movement in real time would be a significant step over and above ULEZ, which is only concerned with you entering specific zones and doesn't track your movements beyond that.

[OutInTheShed]

TheDeuce said:

That's true, although most people don't live in such areas where that type of tracking exists - and certainly those that do didn't take kindly to it originally - and those are people that can at least be convinced it's for their own good (less congestion, better air quality for their kids etc..), even then, it was and remains unpopular.

Having a box in your car that reports your every movement in real time would be a significant step over and above ULEZ, which is only concerned with you entering specific zones and doesn't track your movements beyond that.

Congestion charge tracked people in and out of the zone.
People didn't whine too much.
Loads of other countries have toll roads.

People are trackable by ANPR and their phones.
Your bank knows everything you do, as does google.

Road pricing seems to have cross party support in the long run.

Just as the original congestion charge helped free up London traffic, in a few years we will have a similar situation of charging BEVs, which will improve the streets for a while, so people will approve of it. And then it will spread from there.

The only question is whether ICs will still pay the 'tax disc' as well as road pricing.

[coetzeeh]

TheDeuce said:

ashenfie said:

TheDeuce said:

OutInTheShed said:

Frimley111R said:

ashenfie said:

...., I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

Pollical suicide though. It's been mentioned before but the backlash would be epic...

I doubt it.
The backlash wasn't really epic for the congestion charge or LEZ schemes.
Or for parking charges on residential streets.

People will accept other flavours of road pricing in the same way.

It's different, it's not about the tax itself, it's about the erosion of privacy - people don't want to be tracked.

My Mini and last BMW post had mobile phone chips within them i.e find my car feature. So I think we are already there

That not the same either, yes it's already possible to track and remotely monitor modern cars - but that's closed loop data between the car and it's owner. It's completely different to having a centralised department of the civil service recording every trip you make, and the speed you made that trip at...

Don’t they already track your journey and speed on motorways already?

[TheDeuce]

coetzeeh said:

TheDeuce said:

ashenfie said:

TheDeuce said:

OutInTheShed said:

Frimley111R said:

ashenfie said:

...., I suspect as some point it will be a black box fitted to new cars.

Pollical suicide though. It's been mentioned before but the backlash would be epic...

I doubt it.
The backlash wasn't really epic for the congestion charge or LEZ schemes.
Or for parking charges on residential streets.

People will accept other flavours of road pricing in the same way.

It's different, it's not about the tax itself, it's about the erosion of privacy - people don't want to be tracked.

My Mini and last BMW post had mobile phone chips within them i.e find my car feature. So I think we are already there

That not the same either, yes it's already possible to track and remotely monitor modern cars - but that's closed loop data between the car and it's owner. It's completely different to having a centralised department of the civil service recording every trip you make, and the speed you made that trip at...

Don’t they already track your journey and speed on motorways already?

To an extent, but nowhere near as efficiently as you might think. My business partner had her car stolen a few years back and expected it to be relatively easily tracked via the ANPR network - only for the police to explain to her it's not so much a network as a patchwork of localised systems for each county. The communication of data between each area isn't automated and is often next to impossible to get with any sense of urgency. Some county's often don't have the system online anyway. ANPR isn't a single system, it's a technology that is applied on a 'per system' basis apparently.

It's also severely limited compared to how a road charging black box would need to operate. That black box would absolutely need to track all movements of the car and send it all to a centralised point for logging and to calculate the relevant charges based on overall road usage and the specific roads used.