Will electricity prices start to kill off EV's?

[ashenfie]

DonkeyApple said:

eliot said:

He states that he can run his car for 3p a mile - no doubt because he's charging at home on Octo at 7.5p. Count Quentin rightly points out that 30% of people cant charge at home and national grid fanboi says there's going to be lots of other options available - but those options wont be at 7.5p will they?

Correct. And Quentin will be there to sell that 30% an old Jag that's had one lady owner.

Anyway, the 30% won't need cars beyond 2050 as their jobs will be being done by robots and we will just be paying them money to hide away from making society look ugly and smelly like we already do with old people. Musk is already working on robots to ensure old people can be fully imprisoned away from society, all we need next are robots to keep poor people nicely boxed up at home, away from decent folk.

The problem currently with commercial EV chargers is that if they can buy at a lower rate than the building next to it can there is a clear arbitrage that people would be stupid not to take.

But a lot of this 'problem' is wrapped up in the grand delusion of the oppressed that 'the man' is coming to take their ICE away. That 30% of car users without offstreet parking are also the corr, backbone of any economy. Their mobility is essential. It will be a lower percentage in 20 years time as the big Boomer bulge stop using cars and the trend among you her workers of not owning a car continues but if anything, that section of society will simply define the level at which a then govt see no environmental or economic advantage in continuing to push EVs with legislation.

Yes historically you might have been able to achieve those numbers, I was guessing he has solar and therefore managed 3 kwh per mile at the old rates. Going forward for the rest of us the 22.5p per mile less around 30% for solar that still around 15p per mile. Cheap for sure, but show the bias he has.

Nice to know the the future hold energy rationing for EV and the people at his gym who can afford a drive are expected to pay 50p and go to the Gym? Maybe Gym is a uniformism, for you will just have to walk you lazy git?

[OutInTheShed]

DonkeyApple said:

.....

But a lot of this 'problem' is wrapped up in the grand delusion of the oppressed that 'the man' is coming to take their ICE away. ......

'The Man' will be coming to take your IC car away.

The Man being a bloke with a HIAB lorry, who has a date with your over-complicated, non-maintainable pile of gadgetry somewhere between its 12th and 20th birthdays. Maybe sooner than that. I suspect IC cars will lose a lot of value once the warranty runs out, when the world settles down to having stable supply chains again and we've been through another 3 year lease cycle or whatever.

The last edition of the IC car is not the finest in terms of being easy and cheap to keep for a long time.

[DonkeyApple]

OutInTheShed said:

'The Man' will be coming to take your IC car away.

The Man being a bloke with a HIAB lorry, who has a date with your over-complicated, non-maintainable pile of gadgetry somewhere between its 12th and 20th birthdays. Maybe sooner than that. I suspect IC cars will lose a lot of value once the warranty runs out, when the world settles down to having stable supply chains again and we've been through another 3 year lease cycle or whatever.

The last edition of the IC car is not the finest in terms of being easy and cheap to keep for a long time.

If you go all fancy. Go for boggo stuff that scares apex shoppers and you do avoid that risk.

That new AMG C63 looks to be a perfect example of what you're saying, but at the other end of the market there's still pretty simple stuff that can be bought for new and kept going until the frame collapses.

The key though is that firstly that bottom 30% of drivers are essential to the economy to keep being able to move around for work but a fair chunk of that 30% aren't working and will also be dead before 2050 and the trend among you her workers is less driving and lower ownership.

Too many people are panicking today about something that simply won't impact them.

[TheDeuce]

ashenfie said:

Yes historically you might have been able to achieve those numbers, I was guessing he has solar and therefore managed 3 kwh per mile at the old rates. Going forward for the rest of us the 22.5p per mile less around 30% for solar that still around 15p per mile. Cheap for sure, but show the bias he has.

Nice to know the the future hold energy rationing for EV and the people at his gym who can afford a drive are expected to pay 50p and go to the Gym? Maybe Gym is a uniformism, for you will just have to walk you lazy git?

He uses cheap night time energy, exactly as he explained due to that being a benefit of EV's for the national grid. Those aren't 'old' rates, they're current rates that anyone with an EV can get (the only exclusion being properties that can't currently have a smart metre fitted).

Every single kw of power that goes into my EV costs me 7.5p. I get approx. 3 miles per kwh which is 2.5p per mile.

As for energy rationing for EV's.. I think you either didn't watch the video or didn't understand what was being said. You're talk above about 3 kwh per mile which is completely back to front.

[Heres Johnny]

TheDeuce said:

ashenfie said:

Yes historically you might have been able to achieve those numbers, I was guessing he has solar and therefore managed 3 kwh per mile at the old rates. Going forward for the rest of us the 22.5p per mile less around 30% for solar that still around 15p per mile. Cheap for sure, but show the bias he has.

Nice to know the the future hold energy rationing for EV and the people at his gym who can afford a drive are expected to pay 50p and go to the Gym? Maybe Gym is a uniformism, for you will just have to walk you lazy git?

He uses cheap night time energy, exactly as he explained due to that being a benefit of EV's for the national grid. Those aren't 'old' rates, they're current rates that anyone with an EV can get (the only exclusion being properties that can't currently have a smart metre fitted).

Every single kw of power that goes into my EV costs me 7.5p. I get approx. 3 miles per kwh which is 2.5p per mile.

As for energy rationing for EV's.. I think you either didn't watch the video or didn't understand what was being said. You're talk above about 3 kwh per mile which is completely back to front.

The average car does 30 miles per day, 10 kwh at your rate.

You fail to mention that your daytime rate is higher than average, and if your house is like mine I used 30kwh a day, much of it outside the offpeak rates and octoous go charge 40p kwh now, For comparison I pay 30p kwh all day.

So I can pay 30 kwh x 10p more (£3) a day to be able to add 30 miles a day to my EV at a cheaper rate - thats costing me 10p a mile more.

Then add in car's don't tend to do 30 miles each and every day, some days they might do 200 miles, other days less. You only have a 4 hour window, 7kw the average charge rate. so 28kwh added, at 3 miles per kwh, you're only adding 80 miles per day at the cheap rate.

Others can do their own calculations, but it's not a slam dunk.

[TheDeuce]

Heres Johnny said:

TheDeuce said:

ashenfie said:

Yes historically you might have been able to achieve those numbers, I was guessing he has solar and therefore managed 3 kwh per mile at the old rates. Going forward for the rest of us the 22.5p per mile less around 30% for solar that still around 15p per mile. Cheap for sure, but show the bias he has.

Nice to know the the future hold energy rationing for EV and the people at his gym who can afford a drive are expected to pay 50p and go to the Gym? Maybe Gym is a uniformism, for you will just have to walk you lazy git?

He uses cheap night time energy, exactly as he explained due to that being a benefit of EV's for the national grid. Those aren't 'old' rates, they're current rates that anyone with an EV can get (the only exclusion being properties that can't currently have a smart metre fitted).

Every single kw of power that goes into my EV costs me 7.5p. I get approx. 3 miles per kwh which is 2.5p per mile.

As for energy rationing for EV's.. I think you either didn't watch the video or didn't understand what was being said. You're talk above about 3 kwh per mile which is completely back to front.

The average car does 30 miles per day, 10 kwh at your rate.

You fail to mention that your daytime rate is higher than average, and if your house is like mine I used 30kwh a day, much of it outside the offpeak rates and octoous go charge 40p kwh now, For comparison I pay 30p kwh all day.

So I can pay 30 kwh x 10p more (£3) a day to be able to add 30 miles a day to my EV at a cheaper rate - thats costing me 10p a mile more.

Then add in car's don't tend to do 30 miles each and every day, some days they might do 200 miles, other days less. You only have a 4 hour window, 7kw the average charge rate. so 28kwh added, at 3 miles per kwh, you're only adding 80 miles per day at the cheap rate.

Others can do their own calculations, but it's not a slam dunk.

Most EV owners use at least half their monthly electric to charge their EV. For me it's about 60% overall usage.

We don't use 30kwh per day in addition to the EV. More like 10kw per day, but of course everyone has a different situation.

If I had a flat rate 30p then it would cost me more.

The fact that cars don't do the average 30 miles per day each and every day isn't relevant really, because you can plug it in every night to keep it topped up, you would awake every day with the a full battery apart from perhaps the day straight after a very long journey.

There is also the crossover that of household usage during the cheap hours.. Naturally as soon as we got the cheap night time rate we set timers to run the dishwasher, washing machine and dryer which a chunk of the average households usage. Stuff that runs 24 hours a day benefits too, fridge/freezer etc.

You don't only get 4 hours either, it's 6 fixed cheap rate hours in the night AND endless extra 30-60min periods of the reduced 7.5p rate during the day. It's random when those extra periods are available as it depends on when the grid is over supplied, but whenever it happens the car will automatically click on to charge so long as it's connected and for that same period anything else using power gets the cheap rate too. I would estimate from when I see the car charge at random points during the day, that there is actually about 8 hours cheap rate per 24 hours on average.

You're right that it's not a 'slam dunk' for everyone. But I strongly suspect that in the majority of cases, for anyone with an EV doing avg 30 miles per day it is definitely a sensible choice. Very few people are going to have just a single EV and only do average mileage but then also have a house that uses so much more electricity than average.

[DonkeyApple]

Yup. I'd wager, however, that there's no shortage of people who will have switched recently without doing their sums properly and will get nailed with higher bills and then be busy blaming everyone else come Spring.

Maybe as early as Feb we'll start seeing compo faces in the media and tales of how they've been raped by an 8 limbed corporate monster?

[JonnyVTEC]

Heres Johnny said:

The average car does 30 miles per day, 10 kwh at your rate.

You fail to mention that your daytime rate is higher than average, and if your house is like mine I used 30kwh a day, much of it outside the offpeak rates and octoous go charge 40p kwh now, For comparison I pay 30p kwh all day.

So I can pay 30 kwh x 10p more (£3) a day to be able to add 30 miles a day to my EV at a cheaper rate - thats costing me 10p a mile more.

Then add in car's don't tend to do 30 miles each and every day, some days they might do 200 miles, other days less. You only have a 4 hour window, 7kw the average charge rate. so 28kwh added, at 3 miles per kwh, you're only adding 80 miles per day at the cheap rate.

Others can do their own calculations, but it's not a slam dunk.

That’s some pretty hefty power use to be fair? Maybe you should look at how you are using your own energy rather than telling other people how to manage theirs?

That’s outside the D too so worth more points than your slam dunk

[TheDeuce]

DonkeyApple said:

Yup. I'd wager, however, that there's no shortage of people who will have switched recently without doing their sums properly and will get nailed with higher bills and then be busy blaming everyone else come Spring.

Maybe as early as Feb we'll start seeing compo faces in the media and tales of how they've been raped by an 8 limbed corporate monster?

There's bound to people with minimal charging requirement that switched anyway because at the time the day rate was 12p lower than the already announced October cap increase for flexible tariffs...

That's going to be frustrating and unfortunate for those people but who's to blame? Can't blame octopus for selling a tariff that was genuinely a steal at the time and we can't blame the government for stepping in and reducing prices.

But at least none of those people will be paying more than they expected, it just turns out that with hindsight they could have soon been paying less.

But you're quite right, there are always idiots that can't or won't do their sums and will jump to an unsuitable deal. But idiots spend their lives bewildered and paying more for stuff than they need to. They're used to it and generally too stupid to worry about it.

[DonkeyApple]

TheDeuce said:

But you're quite right, there are always idiots that can't or won't do their sums and will jump to an unsuitable deal. But idiots spend their lives bewildered and paying more for stuff than they need to. They're used to it and generally too stupid to worry about it.

Bit post 2008 we live in a country that charges us to pay for those people and they are legion. Everyone seems to have their begging bowl out and demanding free money to cover their stupidity.

[Heres Johnny]

JonnyVTEC said:

That’s some pretty hefty power use to be fair? Maybe you should look at how you are using your own energy rather than telling other people how to manage theirs?

That’s outside the D too so worth more points than your slam dunk

I’ve a big house, but even if your consumption was half, it’s 5p added to each mile.

I tire of people going on about their EV charging at 7.5p kwh without pointing out the consequences. They then have the temerity to suggest some won’t have done their homework when it seems pretty clear they either hadn’t themselves or don’t feel it appropriate to mention it when it’s a significant cost.

The people that get the good deal on Go are those that have solar during the day. Without it, it’s marginal for many.

[TheDeuce]

Heres Johnny said:

JonnyVTEC said:

That’s some pretty hefty power use to be fair? Maybe you should look at how you are using your own energy rather than telling other people how to manage theirs?

That’s outside the D too so worth more points than your slam dunk

I’ve a big house, but even if your consumption was half, it’s 5p added to each mile.

I tire of people going on about their EV charging at 7.5p kwh without pointing out the consequences. They then have the temerity to suggest some won’t have done their homework when it seems pretty clear they either hadn’t themselves or don’t feel it appropriate to mention it when it’s a significant cost.

The people that get the good deal on Go are those that have solar during the day. Without it, it’s marginal for many.

Sorry but that's just not accurate. It's not at all marginal, the average EV user uses about ten kWh per day, and the average household uses about 8.5 kWh per day - at least 2kw of which can be used during cheap hours. So 12kwh per day at 7.5p and just 6.5kwh per day at a marginally higher than capped rate. Hardly 'significant' but it has been mentioned several times by myself and others.

There's no point looking at anything other than what is average when debating if something is or is not a good deal for the majority of EV drivers.

[Maracus]

TheDeuce said:

Most EV owners use at least half their monthly electric to charge their EV. For me it's about 60% overall usage.

We don't use 30kwh per day in addition to the EV. More like 10kw per day, but of course everyone has a different situation.

If I had a flat rate 30p then it would cost me more.

The fact that cars don't do the average 30 miles per day each and every day isn't relevant really, because you can plug it in every night to keep it topped up, you would awake every day with the a full battery apart from perhaps the day straight after a very long journey.

There is also the crossover that of household usage during the cheap hours.. Naturally as soon as we got the cheap night time rate we set timers to run the dishwasher, washing machine and dryer which a chunk of the average households usage. Stuff that runs 24 hours a day benefits too, fridge/freezer etc.

You don't only get 4 hours either, it's 6 fixed cheap rate hours in the night AND endless extra 30-60min periods of the reduced 7.5p rate during the day. It's random when those extra periods are available as it depends on when the grid is over supplied, but whenever it happens the car will automatically click on to charge so long as it's connected and for that same period anything else using power gets the cheap rate too. I would estimate from when I see the car charge at random points during the day, that there is actually about 8 hours cheap rate per 24 hours on average.

You're right that it's not a 'slam dunk' for everyone. But I strongly suspect that in the majority of cases, for anyone with an EV doing avg 30 miles per day it is definitely a sensible choice. Very few people are going to have just a single EV and only do average mileage but then also have a house that uses so much more electricity than average.

Pretty much same here. ~300kWh a month on peak, at least 360kWh off peak.

Using the OctoComparision tool, Go is much cheaper than standard, I've been on this tariff for over 2 years.

[vladcjelli]

EDF are telling me that my night time rate is actually going down from October.

Good news for the vehicle charging.

By the way, if we accept that the cost to produce electricity has gone up, why has the cost to administer everything, our standing charge, gone up by so much at the same time?

[DonkeyApple]

TheDeuce said:

Sorry but that's just not accurate. It's not at all marginal, the average EV user uses about ten kWh per day, and the average household uses about 8.5 kWh per day - at least 2kw of which can be used during cheap hours. So 12kwh per day at 7.5p and just 6.5kwh per day at a marginally higher than capped rate. Hardly 'significant' but it has been mentioned several times by myself and others.

There's no point looking at anything other than what is average when debating if something is or is not a good deal for the majority of EV drivers.

That would be where the property uses gas central heating. If the electricity vendor is forcing the consumer to buy gas from them as part of the deal.

Why would I have to buy my gas from my electricity supplier would be an important question. Is that price competitive or cheaper?

Just how much power can I draw during the cheap electricity rate? Can I max that?

What's the impact of having to buy peak electricity at a higher rate and why do they need to charge me a higher rate?

Why are all the rates so expensive if the peak rates are underpinned by renewable and the cheap rate is unwanted electricity from the Grid?

Given the track record of the British public and how easy it is to wave 5p in front of their greedy little noses and get their tiny brains to hand you £5 to get that 5p, I do find it very unlikely that many Octopus customers have done any form of viable mathematics.

[TheDeuce]

DonkeyApple said:

That would be where the property uses gas central heating. If the electricity vendor is forcing the consumer to buy gas from them as part of the deal.

Why would I have to buy my gas from my electricity supplier would be an important question. Is that price competitive or cheaper?

Just how much power can I draw during the cheap electricity rate? Can I max that?

What's the impact of having to buy peak electricity at a higher rate and why do they need to charge me a higher rate?

Why are all the rates so expensive if the peak rates are underpinned by renewable and the cheap rate is unwanted electricity from the Grid?

Given the track record of the British public and how easy it is to wave 5p in front of their greedy little noses and get their tiny brains to hand you £5 to get that 5p, I do find it very unlikely that many Octopus customers have done any form of viable mathematics.

Good questions.

The 300 kWh a month figure is for the average household, will be higher if they don't have gas heating - we do have gas so subsequently we use more like 240 kWh butvour house is above average size... And so it goes on, but we can only talk averages for the point of meaningful comparison.

The gas price is capped so all equally competitive I guess! But no, you don't have to buy the gas from the same supplier.

There's no limit to how much you can draw. A perfect time to replace old white goods with modern smart ones that can be set to run when it's cheaper..

The impact of the higher rate (5p above the incoming cap for me) is naturally going to depend on each person's usage. The averages tell us that for the majority, it'll be safely cheaper overall.

I suspect the day rates are higher because it's for a 12 month tie in and we don't actually know what could happen during that period - certainly there was no real certainty when the rates were set. The low rate will stay the same or could fall as it's a negotiated rate with the grid and the energy suppliers to attract as many people as possible. They want it to be as low as practical to sustain.

Yes, people are easy to fleece. But we've delved pretty deep into this particular deal on this thread and others and even for people who don't do their homework, I'm confident most of them will see a saving, provided they make best use of the cheap rate hours of course.

If you happen to have a drafty stone built mansion heated only by electricity and your EV is a towncar that just does a few miles each day, then stay away.

[Evanivitch]

Heres Johnny said:

Others can do their own calculations, but it's not a slam dunk.

Fortunately Octopus make it very easy to see your average unit rate.

On 15p/5p I averaged 9.7p/kWh
On 40/7.5 I'm seeing 20p/kWh

[theboss]

Evanivitch said:

Fortunately Octopus make it very easy to see your average unit rate.

On 15p/5p I averaged 9.7p/kWh
On 40/7.5 I'm seeing 20p/kWh

Same, I just got my first bill on Intelligent (40/7.5) and averaged 1200kWh at 20.5p

[TheDeuce]

theboss said:

Evanivitch said:

Fortunately Octopus make it very easy to see your average unit rate.

On 15p/5p I averaged 9.7p/kWh
On 40/7.5 I'm seeing 20p/kWh

Same, I just got my first bill on Intelligent (40/7.5) and averaged 1200kWh at 20.5p

I'll raise (or lower...) that!

first part month bill, average at 37.47/7.14 was 19.78p a kwh.

As suspected all along, it's good to do your maths but if you have an EV you charge a few times a month, then it's a no brainer.

We only charged once in that half month billing period too as we went on holiday, I expect the second half months bill to lean heavier to the cheap rate and bring the average down further.

We've been quite good about setting washing/dryer/dishwasher on delay so far, but we're not putting ourselves out or being too strict, it's nice to see the reduction and that at least for the next 11 months, we don't have energy cost concerns.

[JonnyVTEC]

Please stop with the data and information. It prevents all the frothing that powers this place.